Permabans, your opinions.

[Decay]

Just now, Doomkid said:

We have several examples of that in the history of the Doom community in fact!

 

Poor alexmax and the altdeath forums....

[MrGlide]

6 minutes ago, killer2 said:

Mostly the fact that while the doom community is still going very strong after all these years, it's still a small community. Losing a great mapper or an interesting presence affects a small community a lot more than a large one, since there are fewer people around to begin with. Trying to preserve good relations with as many people and artists as possible is imperative for a small community to thrive and get bigger.

well I guess it's a good thing to get rid of overly toxic people, so new people can join without dealing with rancid behaviour. Question, how many stay quiet, don't join in the fun, and don't participate in the community when assholes pop up? Seems like we would be deflecting more members of the community by fostering assholes in the community.

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 minutes ago, killer2 said:

I think you're exaggerating how much work this actually implies. It's just keeping tabs on a few people for a little while once every one or three years. That doesn't sound like an excessive amout of work to me, and none of the moderators themselves have said anything on the matter.

You don't know how much effort moderating these forums takes such as it is right now, thus the claim that some more work shouldn't be a problem at all lacks context. Plus you're not the person doing the work, so it's all easy talk for you, and of course easy virtue signaling for that matter.

 

If all you're gonna come up with is "It's probably all easy to do." and "they're probably not as much of a problem as people say they are." Then you're simply arguing with air against the stone cold reality that this community lasted for so long because of how it's been moderated. If you can show me a more lenient place than these forums with no perma-bans, that is as old or older than these forums, then we have something to talk about, until that point you're all talk and no show as far as I'm concerned.

 

11 minutes ago, killer2 said:

I don't see where you get your "one in a thousand" numbers from, either

Have a look at how many users are registered to doomworld, then name me all banned users you are aware of from the top of your head, and then tell me how "many" of those users actually make maps which get uploaded to the idgames archive. That's where the numbers come from.

 

13 minutes ago, killer2 said:

I don't think I'm contradicting myself. The people I said are best kept away have done much more vile things than hurting people's feeling or creating drama. They were actively trying to destroy whatever platform they were on, or if that failed at least alienate as much of the community as possible.

And what do you think is it people get banned for then? No saying "please" and "thank you" one time too often?

 

14 minutes ago, killer2 said:

People have been permabanned for reasons a lot less extreme than that though (at least, to my knowledge).

Aside of the simple reality that your knowledge may have lots of gaps due to how some things just aren't made public, a person who got banned is highly unlikely to tell you that they're outspoken assholes who wasted more than a handful of second chances.

 

I think it is time you stopped with the conjecture, and presented some facts that support your stance. If you can't do that, then there's one hell of a good chance there's a reason for that, such as your approach not being feasible in practice.

[killer2]

     Unfortunately I don't have any hard facts or good solutions, and while I still think it's a shame to ban people forever I must admit I don't have any really good alternative to it that's actually easy to implement and can't backfire. Still, if some sort of compromise that works could be found it would be much better than the current system. I guess for now that's all I have to say regarding this for now, but I welcome people to make further suggestions if they can think of any.

[Csonicgo]

I only have this to say:

I don't care how many maps you've made, projects you've headed, or TCs you've contributed to, if your posts and/or behavior cause one or more forum members distress, you should be perma'd. Period. It's a shame that this has to be said, but there is a growing number of people online who think they have the right to make others feel uncomfortable, and then cry censorship when called out on their bullshit.

 

[stonedbaroness]

All I've got to say is:

 

No one is above the law. 

 

Simple is that.

[Jaxxoon R]

Assholes should get their due, regardless of position. If a majority of their posts are inflammatory or nasty, maybe that's a bad sign.

[fraggle]

I think you're missing a huge amount of the wider context and detail of situations like these, and I get the impression that you've maybe never been in the position of being a moderator or having to actually deal with these issues. As a moderator of any moderately-sized Internet community, the stark position you're always in is that you can either ban people or watch the community be destroyed by toxic people.

 

That's the sad truth: there's some percentage of the population who are deliberate assholes, or or otherwise disruptive. Sometimes you even get someone who isn't an asshole, isn't "trying" to be malicious but "doesn't get it" and won't listen. Some of my most frustrating experiences moderating these forums have been in trying to help people like that to fit in and having them fail to listen to what I'm telling them. 

 

Quote

 

Seriously, when you're making mods for free and people repeatedly ban you, what incentive is there to continue?

Reading through your original post here, I think my biggest objection is the passive way that you've phrased this, as though "being banned" is just a thing that happens to people rather than something that they bring on themselves with toxic and destructive behavior.

 

When you talk about someone banned from somewhere like Doomworld you should realise that it's an extreme measure that has almost always happened after multiple warnings and intercessions by moderators. Unless it's something like a blatant registered-to-troll account, we don't tend to just ban people right off the bat. If you've been banned, you've had your chances and you probably decided not to listen to the moderators who have been trying to help you.

 

In the "real world", when relationships break down, people put in the efforts to make amends - in extreme examples that includes understanding and recognising when they've hurt people, and apologising for whatever damage they've done. But even if it's not that serious, reaching out and making a deliberate effort to talk and try to mend a broken relationship at least shows that you value it and are acting in good faith.

 

So when you say something like this:

On 12/8/2017 at 3:29 PM, killer2 said:

<<yes I am aware ban-evading is not good, but what other option do you really have as someone who is PERMABANNED?>>

, it comes across as a bit disingenuous and almost kind of insulting (though I'm sure that wasn't your intention). Being banned doesn't mean that ban evasion is "your only option". We're here and we're willing to listen; I know there are people who have been unbanned because they actually made an effort to talk to us.

 

But most people who get banned aren't willing to talk, listen or understand anything so of course they don't try after they get banned either; it's much easier to point the finger at someone else and say it's their fault, and of course that someone else is the moderators who banned you, because they're so unfair, and they're extremist "SJWs" and they hate your freedom of speech, and blah blah blah what the fuck ever.

[VGamingJunkie]

I picked the only in extreme circumstances answer. Only if the person is repeatedly ignoring warnings and given every last chance in the world to change while showing no desire to do so. Perhaps an escalation of temporary bans until they reach a certain threshold. Of course, if they're repeatedly doing the same thing they were warned for, that's different.

[Lila Feuer]

IF YOU DIE ON THE FORUM YOU DIE FOR REAL!
 

On 12/8/2017 at 1:15 PM, dew said:

I was wondering if you'd get to advocating for Sigvatr... and you didn't disappoint. Well.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Educate yourself.

Keyboard goop forever haunts my mind.

[Coopersville]

I voted for "extreme cases" but I mean more extreme, as in the person is a serial rapist or something like that. Otherwise, people change. If they don't, exponentially increase their ban time. It racks up to years eventually. 

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Admins and moderators aren't here to babysit manchildren and teach them to be adults. They can try but they aren't obligated to waste their time on those people. If you have psychological problems you go fix these irl NOT try to redirect them on people online, Who are sick of that shit irl and come to the internet to have fun and discuss what they like.

 

People get banned after they annoy the shit out of people without regards to their feelings. If someone gets permabanned they've ALREADY been banned SEVERAL times with increasing ban duration in hope they'd fix that dumb behavior, By that time why should anyone care how they feel after they've annoyed everyone for long periods of time?

 

 

 

 

[Pirx]

thanks fraggle for sharing the picture from the pov of a moderator. some people seem to forget that mods are not babysitters. you are expected to behave, period. mods might be more lenient in the case of a member who also has good contributions, but that doesn't mean that the rules don't apply to everyone.

 

interesting story behind some bans, anyway. idk, as if arguing on the net wins you something.

[40oz]

What I find kinda sloppy about banning people is that when reviewed in a case by case basis, particularly cases of people referenced here such as Huy Pham, or Sigvatr, is that a considerable weight in the decision to ban them lies in their interaction directly with the people in authority. That's understandable. Some people just have really really bad chemistry together, and that's normal.

 

The part of it that is sloppy is that from the point of view of someone such as myself, who is not in authority, my experiences with these individuals lie on a range of being negligible to sometimes quite pleasant, and they don't do any detriment to my experience here. If the moderators have to endure a daily shitstorm to appease the rest of the community, that's not really fair to request that from them. But this is the central location to talk about Doom with other Doomers. If these people get banned, where can I find them?

 

If there were a variety of Doom communities to pick from this wouldn't be such a problem, but there isn't. So when we experience our short free trial of a new person who loves doom but is uneasy around leaders, rules, and structure, eventually that trial runs out in an indeterminate amount of time and I don't always remember to exchange email addresses with these types of people so I can remain in contact.

 

Theres enough people in the Doom community that its probably better off split into different subcommunities. Some people just don't get along together. I've been working on that myself when I inherited http://doomer.boards.ne t

 

but for some reason by doing that people think I'm racist. So life is suffering, I guess.

 

 

[Da Werecat]

I was wondering when you'd mention that.

 

And I think it's a very good thing that such a forum exists. The fact that you seem to be actively advertising it to disgruntled Doomworld members is also useful. If they go there, it means they probably won't try and creep back in here.

 

I only hope that they can get along with each other, at least.

[CARRiON]

Like the saying goes: you've made your bed, now lie in it.

[Neurosis]

I would never want to be a moderator. It's like being a bouncer, but without all the fun. 

[Pure Hellspawn]

Of course I do,

 

You're already given a warning when you sign up - read the rules!

 

I don't think we should give the banhammer for every infraction - but I think the "extreme cases" option is wayyyy too lenient on people.  Yes, newbies should be given some leeway over more minor issues, but...

 

Being on this forum is a privilege given to us by Linguica and the staff here. Someone pays for the servers, and they don't have to allow anyone on the forums they PAID for if they don't want to. 

[june gloom]

18 hours ago, Neurosis said:

I would never want to be a moderator. It's like being a bouncer, but without all the fun. 

I used to moderate a couple of metal groups on Livejournal. Holy fucking shit you never learn how awful people can be (especially metalheads) until you're tasked with keeping them in line.

[MrGlide]

7 hours ago, Pure Hellspawn said:

You're already given a warning when you sign up - read the rules!

where?

[Pure Hellspawn]

On 12/13/2017 at 8:29 AM, MrGlide said:

where?

i did come here 13 years ago so for all i know they took it.

 

But you will see some rules in the Privacy Policy and Terms of Service.

[seed]

Talking about rules, why isn't there any topic containing most of them, or otherwise, the more general ones (which excludes topics with very specific rules for posting in them) around here?

 

Pretty much all forums/websites I've run into have one, but I wasn't able to find any here. Unless I'm blind.

[Pure Hellspawn]

37 minutes ago, Agent6 said:

Talking about rules, why isn't there any topic containing most of them, or otherwise, the more general ones (which excludes topics with very specific rules for posting in them) around here?

 

Pretty much all forums/websites I've run into have one, but I wasn't able to find any here. Unless I'm blind.

The forums were different when I registered here 13 years ago - we had a topic. Recently, we changed the forums completely.

 

Now there is a privacy policy and Terms of service. Read those or proceed at your own risk!! But if you follow them you'll be fine.

 

Basically don't be an asshole, upload illegal/copyrighted stuff or anything like that.

[Soundblock]

Seems even permabanned members may have a chance at re-entering the scene if they're willing to tune their egos to be less abrasive, so it sounds to me like the current system works just fine. Creating a new subclass of user that is only allowed to link to their finished projects, not otherwise allowed to open their mouths, would in a place meant for conversation, opinion and information sharing be very, very awkward. Not to mention the logistics of either implementing a links-only comment system for those users, or a constant need for mods to babysit previously total-banned accounts to check whether they're out of line. Shouldn't be impossible to get someone they haven't offended to make a post about any finished projects, if the idgames exposure isn't deemed enough. Its a shame to lose members who contribute heavily to Doom gameplay, but if they can only exist here at the expense of others, they gotta go imo. Common problem in Hollywood anyway, quality actors deemed impossible to work with by the directors and production companies they at the end of they day rely upon to shine. Edward Norton, etc.

[Fletcher`]

On 12/8/2017 at 9:28 PM, dethtoll said:

And Darknation was a jerk.

I sometimes miss his abuse. Sometimes.

[Pure Hellspawn]

I must be really out of the loop but how did darknation get banned?

[Baratus]

It isn't a simple matter, but if people are repeatedly caught displaying unfriendly or unacceptable behaviour towards others despite being told to stop, or evading punishment, then a ban is probably the best cause of action. It's very hard to judge whether or not a person will ever change in their behaviour but there are definitely some cases where people will refuse to behave themselves and only continue to be a nuisance or even a threat to others. Those people should be removed from the community. Permabanning should always be an option when the offending individual displays continuously unacceptable behaviour, and they should be made an example.

 

If someone is a content creator, even if the content is good, I feel that there is a separation between the individual and the content they create, although in many cases, the creator's personality still shines through in their work in some ways. I don't want to dictate what people should enjoy, and people can play and enjoy the content by people who are less celebrated in the community than their work.

 

In my humble opinion, it is your standing as a member of the community that decides whether or not you stay in it, not what work you contribute to it.

[Lila Feuer]

4 hours ago, Pure Hellspawn said:

I must be really out of the loop but how did darknation get banned?

Saying the wrong things at the most sensitive times on a forum where the majority are not in bed with his views. He was damn funny though, really had a way with words when he got fired up. I get the feeling he was salty all the time though, not just on DW.

[MassiveEdgelord]

On 12/16/2017 at 9:37 PM, Lila Feuer said:

Saying the wrong things at the most sensitive times on a forum where the majority are not in bed with his views. He was damn funny though, really had a way with words when he got fired up. I get the feeling he was salty all the time though, not just on DW.

Can you give specific examples? I keep getting the same vague answer on this topic. 

[Doomkid]

There wasn't one specific event, at least not that I'm aware of. As I remember it, 3ish years ago, some forum staff - idk who in particular, so don't go lynching anyone - decided that dn, Technician, Kontra Kommando (and maybe Phml, I can't remember) were "too hot for TV" in general. I don't think there was "one specific post what done it" with any of them. Last I checked, they're all still alive and well on Doomerboards. I asked dn about the ban a couple years back and he specifically said he didn't care one way or the other about his DW ban and that the era where he belonged here was mostly gone anyway. I don't think there's any drama left to squeeze out of this rock.

 

Also, just for future reference, don't bump old threads unless you really have to - especially a rancid fucking dumpster fire like this one. Shit heaps like this should be left in the past where they belong. It's still here for those with a fetish for shitty threads who actively want to seek them out, but don't go showing your findings to everyone else..