A whole year of 4800 Hell Knights! This time, it'll be finished!

[94's the best style]

Ok, Zombie94 is ready, with rotations and railgun, I could maybe record a seesound later. Also, I gave railgun the much needed buff to 100 damage per shot, which means it can kill hell knight(s) before reload, should you land every shot.

 

You can try him(me?) out with this standalone wad, summon zombie94  

94ALIVE.zip

Edited September 22, 2018 by 94's the best style

[Mere_Duke]

This is very cool wad with some great ideas.

But seriously, it took me a half an hour till I looked into mapinfo to see there are errors :D And for a half an hour I player and re-played 1st map in a loop trying to see the difference (I thought the map was edited by every mapper in some ways but found nothing). Plz fix mapinfo for the next alpha.

[Dexiaz]

8 hours ago, 94's the best style said:

Ok, Zombie94 is ready, with rotations and railgun, I could maybe record a seesound later. Also, I gave railgun the much needed buff to 100 damage per shot, which means it can kill hell knight(s) before reload, should you land every shot.

 

Noice, I'll insert "you" into project, lmao

[Pegleg]

11 hours ago, Doge Sword said:

Can I do a tripwire that reveals more of the level?

 

 

To fit with the original design rules, it would still need to be one contiguous area. So, you couldn't have a door open or a complete wall come down, but you can do a "reveal" as long as you stick to the one overall continuous area theme.

[Dexiaz]

Hm, I'm wondering...Does the HUB map must follow this "door" rule? I mean, the first version have doors, updated version by me adds even 2 more doors (for Portal and for Outdoor area)

[94's the best style]

4 hours ago, DeXiaZ said:

Hm, I'm wondering...Does the HUB map must follow this "door" rule? I mean, the first version have doors, updated version by me adds even 2 more doors (for Portal and for Outdoor area)

That rule hasn't been followed like since forever. practicality over silly limitations, I say. We have plenty of Hell Knights to compensate.

[Pegleg]

55 minutes ago, 94's the best style said:

That rule hasn't been followed like since forever. practicality over silly limitations, I say. We have plenty of Hell Knights to compensate.

 

While I agree that the HUB map can have doors, as I recall, the original map was even supposed to have a "story" to it. I'm not saying we need to do that now, but I don't see an issue with doors in the HUB.

 

That being said, CP's have rules that are set in the OP by the project lead. They may seem silly, but whatever the rules are (stock textures only, you can only use 4 textures, only 3 types of monsters, 22 sectors max, whatever), they were created to provide some level of uniformity to the levels in the mapset.

 

If you say you can just ignore a rule because it suits practicality, then you may as well not have the rule in the first place. And if we start removing the rules, then we just end up with another Doomworld Mega Project (or, this year, the Doomworld Omega Project).

 

Back in the beginning, the rules were rather clearly stated:

• At least 150 Hell Knights
  • You could also have other monsters, so long as you reached this 150 Hell Knight threshold
• At least 1 megasphere
• Everything the player can get to must be in 1 continuous area
  • Lifts and stairs were allowed
  • Separate rooms that the player could not access were allowed
  • Shootable switches in separate areas were allowed
  • Putting small gaps in the wall around a door was not allowed
  • Anything that would divide the map into two sections was not allowed

While they may seem silly, that's one of the things that attracts people to a CP, the nature of the rules and the limitations they enforce. I don't think we should ignore the rules now in favor of practicality. I think we should stick with the "one continuous area" rule for the levels themselves.

[94's the best style]

9 minutes ago, Pegleg said:

 

While I agree that the HUB map can have doors, as I recall, the original map was even supposed to have a "story" to it. I'm not saying we need to do that now, but I don't see an issue with doors in the HUB.

 

That being said, CP's have rules that are set in the OP by the project lead. They may seem silly, but whatever the rules are (stock textures only, you can only use 4 textures, only 3 types of monsters, 22 sectors max, whatever), they were created to provide some level of uniformity to the levels in the mapset.

 

If you say you can just ignore a rule because it suits practicality, then you may as well not have the rule in the first place. And if we start removing the rules, then we just end up with another Doomworld Mega Project (or, this year, the Doomworld Omega Project).

 

Back in the beginning, the rules were rather clearly stated:

• At least 150 Hell Knights
  • You could also have other monsters, so long as you reached this 150 Hell Knight threshold
• At least 1 megasphere
• Everything the player can get to must be in 1 continuous area
  • Lifts and stairs were allowed
  • Separate rooms that the player could not access were allowed
  • Shootable switches in separate areas were allowed
  • Putting small gaps in the wall around a door was not allowed
  • Anything that would divide the map into two sections was not allowed

While they may seem silly, that's one of the things that attracts people to a CP, the nature of the rules and the limitations they enforce. I don't think we should ignore the rules now in favor of practicality. I think we should stick with the "one continuous area" rule for the levels themselves.

Oh, for crying out loud, people have already bended the definition of "one room" so much that I've focused on what's important, that is arena combat against loads of hell knights, which all the maps have more or less fullfilled. In the end the last call is up to me and/or therektafire. Besides, we're seriously behind schedule, releasing a project in an acceptable state should take precedent over anything else. 

[Pegleg]

1 hour ago, 94's the best style said:

Oh, for crying out loud, people have already bended the definition of "one room" so much

 

I agree that is quite true. Which is probably why this project, in my opinion, has moved past the "joke wad" stage and is actually something that people have taken rather seriously, with the biggest issues surrounding it now being more of the variety of problems with the mapinfo and the lack of a hub map (which is being rectified).

 

If we had stuck to the "one square room of whatever size with a megasphere and 150 hell knights" then it would have remained more of a joke wad.

 

Quote

that I've focused on what's important, that is arena combat against loads of hell knights, which all the maps have more or less fullfilled.

 

I would agree with that.

 

Quote

In the end the last call is up to me and/or therektafire.

 

You're right. You two stepped up to carry on the project, so it is your final call. I don't want to abandon the overall original concept is all I'm saying. At this point, as long as a new map were close to that intent, then that's fine. It would seem odd if it were radically different than the rest.

 

Quote

Besides, we're seriously behind schedule, releasing a project in an acceptable state should take precedent over anything else. 

 

Absolutely! At this point, you're right, we need to just get it out there.

 

By the way, since I didn't mention it before, welcome back into the fold.

[94's the best style]

1 hour ago, Pegleg said:

 

I agree that is quite true. Which is probably why this project, in my opinion, has moved past the "joke wad" stage and is actually something that people have taken rather seriously, with the biggest issues surrounding it now being more of the variety of problems with the mapinfo and the lack of a hub map (which is being rectified).

 

If we had stuck to the "one square room of whatever size with a megasphere and 150 hell knights" then it would have remained more of a joke wad.

 

 

I would agree with that.

 

 

You're right. You two stepped up to carry on the project, so it is your final call. I don't want to abandon the overall original concept is all I'm saying. At this point, as long as a new map were close to that intent, then that's fine. It would seem odd if it were radically different than the rest.

 

 

Absolutely! At this point, you're right, we need to just get it out there.

 

By the way, since I didn't mention it before, welcome back into the fold.

(Heh, maybe we should use this for the wad's ending)

[Fonze]

Not that my input should hold any bearing on the conversation, but I feel like DeXiaZ has carried this project more than most in light of the last month or so and should be the project lead, but regardless of that, (and with that said) this seems really rude:

 

5 hours ago, 94's the best style said:

In the end the last call is up to me and/or therektafire.

 

And on that note when congrats are in order, personally I'll congratulate everybody involved as mappers, but DeXiaZ as project lead.

[DFF]

For the HUB I'd say it's fine to bend the rules (the hub also wouldn't have 150 hell knight per se anyways). But to abandon the original rules set forth because it's easier seems like a real cop-out. Kinda selfishly but part of my reasoning was I worked rather hard to make that dumb blimp map one continuous space with no seperate rooms, and I personally really liked the tricky concept of making a level that was designed like an arena, but managed to not actually be a room full of beasties.

 

idk it's just my opinion but to abandon part of the core rules does make the other rules less strict too (if one can be excluded, can't others?) and detracts from the current effort put in by mappers ( nobody would notice the singe room design if not all the maps were designed around it)

[Doge Sword]

If my map doesn't count as one area, I am willing to edit it.  It wouldn't be too hard since I already have an alternate plan.

[94's the best style]

1 hour ago, DerFurer'sFace said:

For the HUB I'd say it's fine to bend the rules (the hub also wouldn't have 150 hell knight per se anyways). But to abandon the original rules set forth because it's easier seems like a real cop-out. Kinda selfishly but part of my reasoning was I worked rather hard to make that dumb blimp map one continuous space with no seperate rooms, and I personally really liked the tricky concept of making a level that was designed like an arena, but managed to not actually be a room full of beasties.

 

idk it's just my opinion but to abandon part of the core rules does make the other rules less strict too (if one can be excluded, can't others?) and detracts from the current effort put in by mappers ( nobody would notice the singe room design if not all the maps were designed around it)

It's more of a point how that specific rule is either too vague or hardly enforced, for most maps seem to have features that would make them multi rooms, should just some doors be put down. That's the point, other rules have been followed more clearly. There's a certain grayness inheritent to that rule, it seems. For example, numerical limitations, like 150 hell knights, or 100 sectors are easy to check by simply opening the map in an editor, but some rules have to be judged, and then an inherent human element will appear. 

 

Replaying the maps confirms my memories, the one room rule has been interpreted in vastly different ways depending on mapper, from the "correct" one room, one area, one arena maps, such as the Cathedral, and then there's maps that seem to have taken it into "no doors" territory. However, vast majority appear to have antechambers to the arena's and that's such a grey thing that I can say with good faith that the rule was ever properly defined, as such, I don't see it as fair to limit any later map more than any earlier map made when the rules were obscure.

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by 94's the best style

[DFF]

38 minutes ago, 94's the best style said:

 

Replaying the maps confirms my memories, the one room rule has been interpreted in vastly different ways depending on mapper, from the "correct" one room, one area, one arena maps, such as the Cathedral, and then there's maps that seem to have taken it into "no doors" territory. However, vast majority appear to have antechambers to the arena's and that's such a grey thing that I can say with good faith that the rule was ever properly defined, as such, I don't see it as fair to limit any later map more than any earlier map made when the rules were obscure.

 

i suppose that does make sense, just i don't think it should be discarded completely and its just "make a map with 150 hell knights and a megasphere". 

 

I understand that the room rule doesn't skirt the gray area but lives in it, but that to me is part of the fun. the creativity behind the simple workaround forthat rule, but it has been ignored at times, where my map may even be not truly "1 room" and i broke the rules, so i understand how obscure and vague the rules are and can be upsetting, but i also don't believe we should throw it out.

 

Also a really fun map design that comes to mind was the "Doomguy's initiation" which was A cut and clean arena, but rather than opening up used walls and floor changing to make the arena different and smaller, but since the arena started completly open, that to me satisfies the ruling while having a dynamic map.

[94's the best style]

Just now, DerFurer'sFace said:

i suppose that does make sense, just i don't think it should be discarded completely and its just "make a map with 150 hell knights and a megasphere". 

 

I understand that the room rule doesn't skirt the gray area but lives in it, but that to me is part of the fun. the creativity behind the simple workaround forthat rule, but it has been ignored at times, where my map may even be not truly "1 room" and i broke the rules, so i understand how obscure and vague the rules are and can be upsetting, but i also don't believe we should throw it out.

 

Also a really fun map design that comes to mind was the "Doomguy's initiation" which was A cut and clean arena, but rather than opening up used walls and floor changing to make the arena different and smaller, but since the arena started completly open, that to me satisfies the ruling while having a dynamic map.

I'm pretty sure that map actually teleports you to different area at the end, or at least a part that's only marginally connected to the arena, as it leads to the outside.

[DFF]

ITs been a little, well if I'm wrong then don't mind me. Either way I'm the rooms is fine.

[94's the best style]

3 minutes ago, DerFurer'sFace said:

Either way I'm the rooms is fine.

Pff...

[Gaia74]

I hope soon this project is finished it looks very fun

 

I would have contributed but sadly it is not for me create maps, I only know create enemies

[Doge Sword]

I'm done.  I might make a variation of this map as a secret level or something, but for now I have this.  It turned out to be more of a mini-slaughter map rather than a joke level.

DSMAP20.zip

[DFF]

@94's the best style you win sir, I concede

[Dexiaz]

12 hours ago, Voltcom9 said:

I love the grave pic. That's really cool. Is that what the Hub map is shaping up to look like? 

 

Thank you.

 

About your question - well, nope, I mean...oh, I see I should show this screenshot should make my concept more "clear":

 

P.S.: Thank you, @Fonze. I don't know what to say...

[Pegleg]

@DeXiaZ

 

I like the look of the hub. Looking at the dorm area, I think you have room on the far wall to add three doors, which would bring the total number of rooms up to 19, for the 19 maps that are now in the map set.

 

As for the portal room, I liked the idea of having more than 1 portal gate, so that you didn't have switches almost right on the side of the portal gate. I don't know how that would affect the dynamics; maybe it's impossible.

 

Also, where were you planning on having the doorway to the final boss? Would it be in your "Some Shiet" area? Or somewhere else?

[Bushpig2dope]

6 hours ago, Pegleg said:

@DeXiaZ

 

I like the look of the hub. Looking at the dorm area, I think you have room on the far wall to add three doors, which would bring the total number of rooms up to 19, for the 19 maps that are now in the map set.

 

If you don't want 19 maps @DeXiaZ we could go to the original plan of mine being a secret map?

[DFF]

@Bushpig2dope while a secret map sounds appealing to me, the question here is "if I take my map out of the switches, is 18 better than 19?" Since it doesn't fix the 20 margin.

 

if people are really pressed for another map, i could try and whip up another I had an idea for...

[Bushpig2dope]

4 minutes ago, DerFurer'sFace said:

@Bushpig2dope while a secret map sounds appealing to me, the question here is "if I take my map out of the switches, is 18 better than 19?" Since it doesn't fix the 20 margin.

 

if people are really pressed for another map, i could try and whip up another I had an idea for...

Yeah I really don't mind if mines a secret or not, I thought I may have been causing issues with an odd amount of maps and thought of making it secret again at work today.

[Dexiaz]

8 hours ago, Pegleg said:

As for the portal room, I liked the idea of having more than 1 portal gate, so that you didn't have switches almost right on the side of the portal gate. I don't know how that would affect the dynamics; maybe it's impossible.

 

IMO it's better to use the one united Portal.

 

1 hour ago, Bushpig2dope said:

we could go to the original plan of mine being a secret map? 

 

There is a way to use 19 buttons instead of 18 in this circle. I just got to make this circle bigger. It also kinda fixes the problem with buttons near the Portal colums where you don't see the portal itself.

 

But I'll think about this. I like the secret exits in HUB maps, but where I should place it? (I mean, if needed, I can create the special room/area, but IDK about the concept itself)

 

8 hours ago, Pegleg said:

Also, where were you planning on having the doorway to the final boss? Would it be in your "Some Shiet" area? Or somewhere else?

 

To be honest, as far as nobody have released the HK Icon of Sin map, I should make this map too.

 

ANd, to be honest, like in some old shooters, the final boss map will be the HUB map itself with disabled portal and some edits (damaged walls, lights, etc)

 

The outdoor area which I want to improve will be the IoS area.

[DFF]

57 minutes ago, DeXiaZ said:

 

But I'll think about this. I like the secret exits in HUB maps, but where I should place it? (I mean, if needed, I can create the special room/area, but IDK about the concept itself)

You could always have the secrets be hidden in the maps too, somewhat unconventional if people don't know where to look but is an option.

[Empyre]

@DeXiaZ Here is my room. I had an idea to make it invaded by Hell with tentacles and floating, bobbing cubes, but then you described in more detail what you want, so I kept it simple. I added a poster, a framed picture, and a nice-if-I-do-say-so-myself laptop on the bed, based on your room template and using only cc4-tex as a resource.

empyreroom.zip

[94's the best style]

3 hours ago, DeXiaZ said:

 

IMO it's better to use the one united Portal.

 

 

There is a way to use 19 buttons instead of 18 in this circle. I just got to make this circle bigger. It also kinda fixes the problem with buttons near the Portal colums where you don't see the portal itself.

 

But I'll think about this. I like the secret exits in HUB maps, but where I should place it? (I mean, if needed, I can create the special room/area, but IDK about the concept itself)

 

 

To be honest, as far as nobody have released the HK Icon of Sin map, I should make this map too.

 

ANd, to be honest, like in some old shooters, the final boss map will be the HUB map itself with disabled portal and some edits (damaged walls, lights, etc)

 

The outdoor area which I want to improve will be the IoS area.

I could make at least one secret map, also, does Zdoom have support for quake-style difficulty select in map, maybe we could have a hidden (joke) difficulty that can only be selected by finding a secret in the hub.

 

Knightmare: All monsters replaced by hell knights (unless they're royals already.)