Why not just create an entirely new engine for Doom?

[hardcore_gamer]

Not sure in which exact sub-forum this belongs but I guess this one makes the most sense. Anway...

 

Is there anything that is actually stopping someone from doing this? Everyone seems to be busy creating source ports for Doom but is there anything stopping somebody with the right programming skills from just creating their own 2.5D engine completely from scratch, thus bypassing literally all the limitations of the original Doom while still technically being 2.5D instead of full 3D? Granted that to take full advantage of this you would probably have to rip all the sprites from the original iwad and stop using that type of file format, and obviously those things could not be included with the engine by default, but surely some program could be invented to just do that for the user in a quick and painless manner?

 

Is there any specific reason nobody has done this?

[Da Werecat]

People are used to the idea that an engine for Doom must support Doom in its original state.

 

The idea of an engine designed specifically (and exclusively) for user-created content sounds pretty at least in theory, because there'd be a chance to write something simple and elegant, unburdened by all the compatibility baggage. I guess most people would just say it's not worth the effort?

[hardcore_gamer]

8 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

People are used to the idea that an engine for Doom must support Doom in its original state.

 

But with there being so many source ports already would anybody really care if they had one extra on their hard drive? I have like 3-4 different Doom source ports on my deskop. I would not mind one more specifially for just mods/standalone games.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

This was a thing at one point, though I believe it was motivated more by the source code not having yet come out at the time it was made.

https://www.samba.org/dumb/

[Kappes Buur]

I haven't played it for a long time, but a few years back Codeimp made a topdown game,

based on the doom structure, named Bloodmasters. That was, if I remember correctly, at

the time of Doombuilder1. And later started on Rampage. The first did not, seemingly, catch

on and the second was never finished.

[grommile]

8 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Is there anything that is actually stopping someone from doing this?

It's a lot of work, and there's no readily apparent reason to do it.

 

Especially when GZDoom already exists.

[hardcore_gamer]

1 hour ago, grommile said:

It's a lot of work, and there's no readily apparent reason to do it.

 

What about a better lightning system and 3D model support that doesn't suck?

 

EDIT: Speaking of 3D model support. Why is it that it isn't possible for modern source ports to support more recent 3D model formats?

 

EDIT: I just found this thing: https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=56021

 

Last post was in may? Is this thing still being made? While this looks cool I can't help but fear that if it becomes possible for indies to make games with the Doom engine that it will become the fps version of rpg maker -_-

[snapshot]

It would be nice if we get a brand new engine that maintains support for Doom engine games and finally brings them to 3rd dimension (although GZDoom renderer is probably that), fully 3D engine with more modding capabilities and improved visuals is always welcome, But I think due to lack of interest and motivation we may not see this happen soon.

[hardcore_gamer]

4 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

fully 3D engine

 

Not FULLY 3D though. One of the perks of 2.5D is that it's easier to create levels compared to say, Quake. The biggest problem I have with the current Doom engine and it's ports is how it handles lightning and 3D model support. Having to draw sectors to create the game's lightning isn't very ideal, and the lack of proper 3D model support is a bummer. It also is a pain having to use the outdated wad file format.

 

If a new engine were to be made, it should just be similar to what we have already but with a more modern lighning system and 3D model support, and the ability to create content without needing wad files.

[snapshot]

5 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Having to draw sectors to create the game's lightning isn't very ideal

https://zdoom.org/wiki/GLDEFS#Dynamic_lights

 

GZDoom Reycasted Realtime Shadows

 

GZDoom also added SSAO

[hardcore_gamer]

33 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

https://zdoom.org/wiki/GLDEFS#Dynamic_lights

 

GZDoom Reycasted Realtime Shadows

 

GZDoom also added SSAO

 

I am aware of those types of lights, but it's not ideals to use them for the entire map's lightning, even if for no other reason than that it would cripple performance.

[snapshot]

I think we should leave that up to @Graf Zahl to tell us whether it's ideal or not, I've seen plenty of mods that made good use of these effects, I don't think the issues come from lighting.

[hardcore_gamer]

2 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

I've seen plenty of mods that made good use of these effects, I don't think the issues come from lighting.

Sure, but that's not the same as using ONLY those effects for the entire map. Doing this would cripple performance.

[snapshot]

6 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

that's not the same as using ONLY those effects for the entire map

I only mentioned these as examples of what can be done with GZDoom's advanced lighting techniques, There are few more, I didn't mean to say they have to be used in a poor way.

EDIT : to elaborate, even on the more modern engines you would still have to be careful with lighting calculation process, I am aware of this and I guess it's no different in GZDoom.

Edited December 23, 2017 by dmg_64

[Da Werecat]

Well you can use pk3 instead of wads.

 

As for that GPL link, I'm not sure what's there to develop further. GZDoom is now GPL. That was the end goal. Unless there's something else buried in that thread (I only read a few posts at the beginning and at the end).

[Gez]

13 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Is there anything that is actually stopping someone from doing this?

No, so why don't you make it? If you don't have the skill yourself, then why not hire programmer who do? Be the change you want to see.

 

What's stopping people from doing that is, as always, that they have other things they'd rather do with their free time. Reinventing the wheel will always be low in anyone's list of priorities. Those who want to play Old Doom in a new engine will see there are already a bunch of ports they can use, and if they feel the existing ports still lack something they'd want it's easier to take one as a base and add stuff to it than to make an entirely new program from scratch.

 

People who want to write entirely new game engines from scratch will feel they'd be more rewarded if they make one for an old game that does not have existing source ports.

 

Lastly, people who just want to play "modern Doom" have a 2016 title they can play.

13 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Everyone seems to be busy creating source ports for Doom but is there anything stopping somebody with the right programming skills from just creating their own 2.5D engine completely from scratch, thus bypassing literally all the limitations of the original Doom while still technically being 2.5D instead of full 3D?

What's important about the engine being 2.5D? Isn't that one of the limitations you'd want to overcome? I've been playing the Alfonzone recently, and it has a lot of nice maps with brilliant use of 3D structures.

 

3 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

What about a better lightning system and 3D model support that doesn't suck?

 

EDIT: Speaking of 3D model support. Why is it that it isn't possible for modern source ports to support more recent 3D model formats?

So you want a 2.5D engine with 3D models?

 

Basically you want something that's a really tiny niche between "actual 3D engine like Unity that everybody is using nowadays" and "source port".

 

And the goal of that program would be to be able to play content that doesn't exist yet, but would hopefully be created by other people once the program is made.

 

And you wonder why nobody is working on this idea.

[hardcore_gamer]

51 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

As for that GPL link, I'm not sure what's there to develop further. GZDoom is now GPL. That was the end goal. Unless there's something else buried in that thread (I only read a few posts at the beginning and at the end).

 

So it's now possible to make and sell Doom engine games? Is anybody currently working on such a project?

 

9 minutes ago, Gez said:

So you want a 2.5D engine with 3D models?

 

Basically you want something that's a really tiny niche between "actual 3D engine like Unity that everybody is using nowadays" and "source port".

 

And the goal of that program would be to be able to play content that doesn't exist yet, but would hopefully be created by other people once the program is made.

 

And you wonder why nobody is working on this idea.

 

Well my point was that stuff like level design is easier in 2.5D games compared to full 3D where people have to use complex 3D modeling programs instead.

[Jimmy]

if there were any thread title which makes appalling use of the word "just"

[Nine Inch Heels]

One does not simply create a new engine for doom.

[Da Werecat]

13 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

So it's now possible to make and sell Doom engine games?

It was possible for a long time. It's just that GZDoom in particular wasn't GPL until very recently.

 

17 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Is anybody currently working on such a project?

Off the top of my head, I can remember two commercial games being made for 3DGE.

 

http://facebook.com/slavefps/
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Isotope-TDGMods/232903863419077/

[hardcore_gamer]

27 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

It was possible for a long time. It's just that GZDoom in particular wasn't GPL until very recently.

 

Off the top of my head, I can remember two commercial games being made for 3DGE.

 

http://facebook.com/slavefps/
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Isotope-TDGMods/232903863419077/

 

Neither of those look very interesting honestly. The first one looks like a generic pixel art game and the later appears to suffer from the same problem as most mods that attempt to use 3D models do, in that because of technical limitations the models look pretty bad. I am kinda suprized honestly. I would have expected a larger number of indies to use the Doom engine considering that it's easier to use than modern 3D engines.

[snapshot]

Probably because the second is supposed to look like that ? to work on Dreamcast, same as first.

[hardcore_gamer]

5 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

Probably because the second is supposed to look like that ? to work on Dreamcast, same as first.

 

Oh ok.

 

After reading a bit about 3DGE it says it supports MD5 models like Doom 3 does. This is news to me because as far as I know Zdoom only supports MD2 and MD3 models. Doesn't this mean it's possible to create 3D models for 3DGE that have Doom 3 level of quality? Is there any reason this hasn't happened other than people just not being skilled enough to make such models?

 

EDIT: Holy crap it is:

 

 

[snapshot]

People tend to make mods for source ports that are more popular, and 3DGE to be honest isn't as popular as GZDoom.

[RederickDeathwill]

8 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

 

Not FULLY 3D though. One of the perks of 2.5D is that it's easier to create levels compared to say, Quake.

Have to disagree man, the 2.5D engine of Doom is pretty fucking weird. I'd rather have "brushes" than bloody sectors (It takes some time to get used to it, unlike 3D where things are more intuitive). But that's also the magick of it, the doom engine is perfect to create a puzzle and trap-filled frustrating environment. 

[Spectre01]

One advantage to a new engine would be removing the performance bottlenecks current sourceports have. If you try and make something as or more complex than Frozen Time, it will simply run awful regardless of the port or settings. And even the most detailed and massive Doom maps have nothing on the visual complexity of, say 2004+ games, yet run significantly worse. In before somebody tries to justify as to why you need a modern gaming PC, capable of running Doom 4 at 60FPS, to play maps in a 24 year old game.

[Kappes Buur]

On 12/22/2017 at 6:24 PM, hardcore_gamer said:

Why not just create an entirely new engine for Doom?

I really don't know why a question like this is asked. It seems to me a

non-sensible question. As far as I can tell, programmers of the various

recent ports are undertaking the task for different reasons. But it all

comes down to see how far the existing DOOM engine can be improved,

to make it function better and to add new capabilities, and as such ports

like ZDoom, GZDoom, Eternity, Edge, Risen3D, etc. are doing an excellent job.

Of course, being idtech1, some limits are inevitable. For my part, I am

grateful to everyone for letting me persue my hobby.

 

As for an entirely new engine for DOOM, well they do exist already, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Tech 

To expect a completely new engine to be programmed by a single person,

or even a group of programmers, in their spare time seems a bit asking much.

Especially when a commercial team takes years to complete such a program.

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Kappes Buur

[SatanaInArte]

@hardcore_gamer Look to Total Chaos.It was made with GZDoom.

I don't think that programmers have to waste their time creating a new engine while you could do something like Total Chaos with the modern sourceports.

[SaladBadger]

I don't really get the desire for a new 2.5D engine if I'm honest, it'd be a little frustrating to re-add all those limitations that come with it intentionally. Honestly, if the desire is just to have the simpler workflow, its not like it'd be that hard to make a tool to export Doom maps into a format that can be used by 3D engines, or hell add the ability to import the maps directly.

[Da Werecat]

2 hours ago, SatanaInArte said:

I don't think that programmers have to waste their time creating a new engine while you could do something like Total Chaos with the modern sourceports.

And how's the performance in that mod?