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M318J

Flaws in Doom 16'

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Don't get me wrong, I thought Doom 16' is a ton of fun and I'm willing to replay it this time on Nightmare. But you can tell the developers never truly played the original Doom games and if they did I guess they were never allowed to go all the way out with Doom 16' such as allowing for more monsters to be on the field or just slapping you in arenas rather than a giant open landscape with the sky filled with Lost Souls, Cacodemons and just fireballs from the Demons flanking you in every direction.  I guess the legacy of the original Doom games will never get upgraded any further than what Doom 16' put out. I'm okay with that, because if Doom 16' were to go beyond what the original Doom did or just even do what the original Doom did, then the original Doom games would be boring. That's just my opinion on this.

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just slapping you in arenas rather than a giant open landscape with the sky filled with Lost Souls, Cacodemons and just fireballs from the Demons flanking you in every direction

 

That's not how the original games played at all though.

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On 12/24/2017 at 1:32 PM, Marnetstapler said:

 

That's not how the original games played at all though.

I'm pretty sure hes referring to E3M6 of the original DOOM which DID play like he described. Try to be a little more proactive next time before shutting out someone's opinion. 

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I figure this is down to technical limitations - a modern AAA game with all the detail, bells and whistles of a hyper-advanced game engine cannot handle both the whole "big open landscape" (unless under-detailed) and "lots of monsters coming at you from all sides" (unless really low-poly and under-detailed), rather than the developers "never having played Doom".

 

also, Kevin Cloud worked on both this and Doom 3 and he was definitely around working on the original Doom (which means he had to have played it). I actually feel Doom 2016 plays far more like the original than Doom 3, so the statement "you can tell the developers never truly played the original Doom games" comes across as very disingenuous.

 

It's an old tech issue that's been around since Quake came out, one of the quirks of a full 3d engine and I'm not sure I would call it a "flaw" rather than the development team being pragmatic and making compromises with what they had to work with.

 

Now the bug that makes enemies sorta invulnerable to gunfire when they're stunned, on the other hand, that is definitely a flaw. The unbalanced and rushed design of the secret classic Doom maps is a flaw. The overwhelming number of very linear maps could be considered a flaw too, but that's a thread topic of its very own that's already been discussed extensively. The rune trials being very "trial-and-error" with small coincidences (such as where enemies end up spawning in) often determining if you fail the trial, that I would consider a flaw too.

 

Some people have pointed out that the "work environment" of the base doesn't feel very "lived in" and while I don't consider it a problem as I would rather the level design focus on fun combat over realism, it is a valid argument for being a flaw, because it is still possible to combine fun with realism (I figure time constraints prevented some of the "realism").

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Personally I thought that Doom '16 did feel like the developers had a good amount of experience with classic Doom, but it is clear that there were some design decisions like the linear level design that were most likely used to capture a modern audience, since linear levels make up the majority of big name shooters nowadays. I would like to see some more interesting encounters, I felt that near the end the game stagnated a bit and why it's hard for me to go back to Doom '16 and also what killed Doom 3 for me, although in 3 it was much worse in my opinion.

 

Although taking something as broad as all the flaws in Doom '16 and trying to compare Doom or Doom 2 seems like way too much for a single thread.

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9 hours ago, dsm said:

I figure this is down to technical limitations - a modern AAA game with all the detail, bells and whistles of a hyper-advanced game engine cannot handle both the whole "big open landscape" (unless under-detailed) and "lots of monsters coming at you from all sides" (unless really low-poly and under-detailed), rather than the developers "never having played Doom".

 

also, Kevin Cloud worked on both this and Doom 3 and he was definitely around working on the original Doom (which means he had to have played it). I actually feel Doom 2016 plays far more like the original than Doom 3, so the statement "you can tell the developers never truly played the original Doom games" comes across as very disingenuous.

 

It's an old tech issue that's been around since Quake came out, one of the quirks of a full 3d engine and I'm not sure I would call it a "flaw" rather than the development team being pragmatic and making compromises with what they had to work with.

 

Now the bug that makes enemies sorta invulnerable to gunfire when they're stunned, on the other hand, that is definitely a flaw. The unbalanced and rushed design of the secret classic Doom maps is a flaw. The overwhelming number of very linear maps could be considered a flaw too, but that's a thread topic of its very own that's already been discussed extensively. The rune trials being very "trial-and-error" with small coincidences (such as where enemies end up spawning in) often determining if you fail the trial, that I would consider a flaw too.

 

Some people have pointed out that the "work environment" of the base doesn't feel very "lived in" and while I don't consider it a problem as I would rather the level design focus on fun combat over realism, it is a valid argument for being a flaw, because it is still possible to combine fun with realism (I figure time constraints prevented some of the "realism").

This!!!!! Now THIS is what you call a well articulated response with detailed explanation. The rest of you guys should take note from dsm (doom sex machine, if I'm not mistaken) when participating in a forum discussion. Let this set the example. 

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22 hours ago, dsm said:

Now the bug that makes enemies sorta invulnerable to gunfire when they're stunned, on the other hand, that is definitely a flaw.

This sounds like the intended effect of the 'Intimacy is Best' Rune?

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13 hours ago, royaldj said:

This!!!!! Now THIS is what you call a well articulated response with detailed explanation. The rest of you guys should take note from dsm (doom sex machine, if I'm not mistaken) when participating in a forum discussion. Let this set the example. 

if you're going to act like a wannabe moderator in every single thread to post in, can you at least act like you have been on any forum that's been active after the stone age

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9 hours ago, GuyMcBrofist said:

This sounds like the intended effect of the 'Intimacy is Best' Rune?

It also happens occasionally when the rune isn't selected.

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You become OP too quickly, even on UV, with the permanent HP and armor boosts, and some of the more effective weapon upgrades that destroy the game before you're even at the halfway mark (plasma gun heat wave, double super shotgun shot).

Some monsters, like the Possessed Soldier's and the Imp's charge attacks do too much damage for being so early on (frankly these guys are the bane of any Ultra-Nightmare player), and the shield guys who make you stop everything you're doing and rapid fire their shotguns.

The Revenant is a pushover, lazily attacking you, and the Cyber Mancubus seems more like a redundant cosmetic change rather than a totally new monster (at least it reminds me of Skulltag's Hectebus due to the green projectiles).

The last few levels stop being interesting and open and devolve into extensive nonstop arena battles one after another without a single breather or exploratory period, I mean sure the game is almost over but I enjoyed the earlier and mid-game portion more for being balanced with the gore nests.
 

The game ends before you can use the demonic runesword Hayden cock-teases you with.

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21 hours ago, cyan0s1s said:

Some monsters, like the Possessed Soldier's and the Imp's charge attacks do too much damage for being so early on (frankly these guys are the bane of any Ultra-Nightmare player), and the shield guys who make you stop everything you're doing and rapid fire their shotguns.

On top of this, a small part of me is mildly offended that Imp fireballs move faster than the Baron of Hell's - it's supposed to be the other way around /fanboy grumbling.

The shield guys don't bother me as much after I got a useful tip that the Gauss Cannon blows these guys to pieces regardless of their shields (just don't use the scope attack; they can block that for some reason), but I used to be very annoyed that you couldn't even temporarily disable their shield through focused gunfire barrages or something (at least something like the plasma gun's primary fire should've been useful at dwindling down their shields to nothing really fast, making it a more useful weapon).

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It pisses me off how the Baron of Hell can't throw fireballs in multiplayer. The primary fire is simply swinging his claw(which is retarded, since they have a separate button for melee attacks), while the alternate fire is identical to one of the Cyberdemon's attacks, which is something he can't do as an NPC.

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The arena fights become a little repetitive after a while. When you get locked into a room with ever spawning enemies for the 50th time, you're rolling your eyes more than anything else. Still had a blast but it made things a bit too predictable.

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On 12/28/2017 at 3:31 PM, cyan0s1s said:

and the shield guys who make you stop everything you're doing and rapid fire their shotguns.

There's seems to be a trend in iD universe games where the enemies with shotguns can fire them automatically, whereas the player can only fire in pump-action.

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Oh yeah, the ZSec shotgunners in D3 are the worst pieces of shit. My first death was because of them due to the fact they kept flinging the camera back and throwing off my aim until I died.

To be fair however, Valve also likes fast shotgunners. The shotgun Combine in HL2 are notorious dicks.

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On 12/31/2017 at 7:55 PM, cyan0s1s said:

To be fair however, Valve also likes fast shotgunners. The shotgun Combine in HL2 are notorious dicks.

I actually wanted to say this myself.

 

Good luck fighting the soldiers later in Nova Prospekt, hope the Shotgunners won't blow you to pieces, and the AR2 ones to never show up when your suit power is low.

Edited by Agent6

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1 hour ago, cyan0s1s said:

Funny you say that as I am approaching Nova Prospekt on my third playthrough, but this time on hard.

:v .

 

Manageable, but don't let 'em corner you, move at all times, Doom style.

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On 12/31/2017 at 10:36 PM, cyan0s1s said:

This is one of the very few FPS games where hard mode or higher isn't an unbalanced joke. Unreal 1 also comes to mind.

But you can really feel the power of the Metrocops' 9mm pistols and SMGs during the end of A Red Letter Day, Route Kanal, and Water Hazard. It may not be nightmarish, but the difficulty spike from Normal to Hard is actually quite noticeable, I did manage to die a couple of times during Route Kanal and on other occasions finish it with 20-30hp, not to mention the standoff in Nova Prospekt. Shit gets intense on hard difficulty.

Edited by Agent6

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On 12/28/2017 at 1:59 AM, Arctangent said:

if you're going to act like a wannabe moderator in every single thread to post in, can you at least act like you have been on any forum that's been active after the stone age

Thanks for the tip. I wrote it down in my notepad using a high quality ballpoint pen that I received as a gift last fall. 

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On 12/31/2017 at 3:36 PM, cyan0s1s said:

This is one of the very few FPS games where hard mode or higher isn't an unbalanced joke. Unreal 1 also comes to mind.

Every Serious Sam, Shadow Warrior remake, Hard Reset, Quake 1-3 (4 sucks too much idk), Doom 1 and 2 (UV) have fair hard modes

 

In fact, out of all these games unreal 1 is the most unfair on hard imo. 

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The boss battles should have been large scale arenas with other monsters, which is the case in any classic Doom boss. I didn't find the Doom '16 bosses all the engaging for the most part. I would have also liked more exploration, but due to how many potential simultaneously rendered monsters that might result in if you play passively, I can understand why the game gets so Painkiller-y at times. Pretty sure this will be worked out in the sequel.

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4 hours ago, GoatLord said:

The boss battles should have been large scale arenas with other monsters, which is the case in any classic Doom boss.

I agree. Did you prefer DOOM 3's Cyberdemon boss battle over DOOM 2016's?

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40 minutes ago, Don_Faparotti said:

I agree. Did you prefer DOOM 3's Cyberdemon boss battle over DOOM 2016's?

I think I enjoyed the new one more because you're so much more mobile, but it was still tedious and not super satisfying.

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The Glory Kill system ruins it very much IMO. The original, you had to find health packs and if you couldn't, TS. The new one you can slaughter imps at 10 HP and get up to 84 HP. I honestly believe that ruins it. That and the constant arenas. It's just as bad as the constant predicable jumpscares in 3. Other than that, it truly is a good game.

Edited by _42_

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3 hours ago, _42_ said:

The Glory Kill system ruins it very much.

I really liked the Glory Kill system! The way it forced you further into a fight to replenish health instead of skulking around the edge looking for health pickups was a very clever idea.

 

It's not an issue in Doom as you run so fast, but in Doom 2016 I reckon it'd kill the flow somewhat more.

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On 1/15/2018 at 0:27 PM, _42_ said:

The Glory Kill system ruins it very much IMO. The original, you had to find health packs and if you couldn't, TS. The new one you can slaughter imps at 10 HP and get up to 84 HP. I honestly believe that ruins it. That and the constant arenas. It's just as bad as the constant predicable jumpscares in 3. Other than that, it truly is a good game.

That's because you're playing on easy mode. Try ramping up the difficulty a little higher. Glory kills drop less health and hits you take hurt a lot more. You'll be begging for a demon to be in glory kill mode. 

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29 minutes ago, Don_Faparotti said:

That's because you're playing on easy mode. Try ramping up the difficulty a little higher. Glory kills drop less health and hits you take hurt a lot more. You'll be begging for a demon to be in glory kill mode. 

I'm on UV, and it's still bad, but that's my opinion.

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