Your thoughts on TNT Evilution

Alright people, it's basically the same thing like my previous thread on Plutonia: https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/98456-your-thoughts-on-plutonia/?page=1

 

Having just finished TNT Evilution today (same settings, UV max difficulty, blind playthrough) I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. What you liked, what you did not, your favorite maps, memorable/fun moments, secrets, tips, and so on.

 

First things first, although I did not truly enjoy Plutonia due to its difficulty, I'm actually preferring it over TNT. Surprising? Well, for me, kinda. Since TNT is easier I expected to enjoy it more than Plutonia, but that didn't really happen. There are multiple reasons for this. First of all, is the highly inconsistent level of quality of the maps. Some of the maps such as Prison, Hangar, Power Control, Processing Area are pretty well designed and beautiful, or at the very least interesting, however later on some ugly and (or, in some cases) confusing maps show up, such as Crater which is probably the ugliest and least interesting map out of all. Others such as Steel Works had some interesting design choices for reaching the keys. Other levels were a bit confusing, not in the sense that the maps as a whole felt as such, but apparently by not needing to locate and pick up all the required keys to complete the level. The map that comes to mind here is none other than Deepest Reaches. I find this to be one of the best looking maps in TNT, but something just did not make sense in this map, that being the fact that you don't have to pick up the red skull. That was something I totally didn't see coming, I reached the end of the level only to realize I never found the area which required the red skull, nor did I even manage to find a way to pick it up.

 

Maps such as Mill were rather unique in their way, but very obscure and highly cryptic in terms of design. By this I refer to the room where the exit is located. I almost never guessed I had to shoot a more or less hidden (and that in plain sight, go figure) switch which triggers the final battle, one that was underwhelming. Challenging at first, but I could simply get inside the tower and shoot the Cyberdemon from there without taking or risking any damage after the front was clear. 

 

Overall, TNT was not challenging. There were some Plutonia-esque maps such as Mountain of Pain which is probably the most challenging in the entire wad, but beside it, the levels were easy, and this time around, thankfully, no overused hitscan enemies. The ending level, Last Call, is a mixed bag. The little puzzle at the start was something I loved, despite being pretty easy, but later on it goes downhill. Aside from the room where the Icon of Sin was located in, most battles are very easy and there's a ton of items to pick up on the way. In fact, every area with major battles provides a significant amount of power ups, ammo, and so on, but despite this, they are just not a real challenge. For instance, in the room with the Cyberdemon I simply stayed next to the pillar on which the key was located and spammed the BFG into him (apparently he couldn't land a single hit on me, which was disappointing). It feels like the map tries to tell you (or mock you, depending on how you look at it) that "Hey, there's some challenges here and there on your way, but that's not the point of this map at all". The final battle can also be exploited since there are 2 teleporters which can be used whenever you want, let some of the enemies that spawn kill each other, and jump back in. In a sense, it's good that the battle doesn't drag on unnecessarily by waiting for the platform (stair in this case) to come down, get on it, then go up, and repeat the steps 3 times like in the other Doom games and Plutonia.

 

Something that lacked in Plutonia was custom music. This was corrected here for the most part by adding some pretty good and fitting new music, but sadly not all levels feature new tracks. In a couple of levels Doom 2's music plays. A real issue? Not necessarily, but since the majority of the maps feature new soundtrack created specifically for TNT, an extra effort could've been made to feature new music in all maps.

 

All things considered, TNT is a mixed bag. There is some good stuff in it, no doubt about that, but it fails to be a memorable, enjoyable, fun, and satisfying experience. I didn't even mention my favorite map, well, that's simply because I just don't have one. In the other Doom games there was always something that really stood out from the crowd, or all maps as a whole if not, but the quality is so inconsistent here I can't pick a favorite.

Edited by Agent6
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:ok_hand: ost and the first episode is sick but everything else is shit D:

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For me, TNT Evilution felt a lot more like an adventure, with its varied locales and themes. Its grand scale still takes my breath away and bring tears to my eyes whenever I think about them, memories of a small and excited doomer playing something new and fresh. There are so many places I would never forget ever since I first saw them like the final area in Metal, the dark atmosphere in Open Season and the Crater itself in Crater but to this day, Mount Pain or to be more specific the mountain itself still leaves me with an open jaw. 

 

I'm so glad TNT Evilution was added to the official IWADs, it was such a great addition to Doom II whether with its midi tracks, the far and few new textures and of course the new levels and concepts. But to me, TNT Evilution is all about the adventure it gives us.

Edited by Uni
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Evilution remains the only IWAD I've never finished.  Utterly, intolerably boring.

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The PSX version of Final Doom had like a 'best of' TNT, further enhanced by TNT's adventurous/atmospheric elements blending perfectly with the PSX style. To this day it's still what springs to mind for me when TNT is brought up.

 

The original IWAD isn't as good, and it has its fair share of weaker moments but sadly they seem to overshadow everything else for a lot of people. Plutonia wasn't all that either.

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The first twenty or so maps are pretty solid for the most part. The last ten however are a total grab bag. It's basically Doom II but harder, better themed, more grounded and tech-y as opposed to naturalistic or abstract. The new music is good and I like the storyline. Unlike Plutonia which just feels like 'operation gone wrong again' TNT feels more personal, like a proper finale to the classic PC Doom games. They killed his buddies he trained and the demons' offensive is the largest yet. If Plutonia is death metal then TNT is black metal.

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To TNT's credit, it tries to add some new music and the use of bugs such as deep water and voodoo were pretty cool to see in an official iWAD. Obviously weaker than Doom 2 and Doom 1 but it serves as a decent challenge. Perhaps the most interesting part is the way it starts out, no weapons except for the Berserk Pack which, judging by the demo, the game is encouraging you to use.

Edited by MetroidJunkie

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Death Bells is the best thing in TNT.

 

There's nothing in TNT that ever disgusted me, in fact of all the iwads it's probably my first or second favourite: great music, nice adventurous atmosphere, some good and not so good maps but mostly fun for me. I still remember how amazed I was with some of the maps tricks, such as the "other" world in Wormhole, the lost souls "machine" in Mount Pain, the huge open spaces in Central Processing, the crate maze in map 11, the floating revs in Pharaoh (or cyberdemon on UV), etc. It always felt like something I should have played when I was younger, but I'm glad this and Plutonia exists for people like me who wanted something extra from the game. If I ever map, I'd take some things of this as a source of inspiration. 

 

Umm, that's it.

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19 minutes ago, cyan0s1s said:

The first twenty or so maps are pretty solid for the most part. The last ten however are a total grab bag. It's basically Doom II but harder, better themed, more grounded and tech-y as opposed to naturalistic or abstract. The new music is good and I like the storyline. Unlike Plutonia which just feels like 'operation gone wrong again' TNT feels more personal, like a proper finale to the classic PC Doom games. They killed his buddies he trained and the demons' offensive is the largest yet. If Plutonia is death metal then TNT is black metal.

As an order of some sort, regardless of platform, I'd say Plutonia, TNT, and lastly Doom64. Doom64 would be my proper finale to the classic series.

 

Talking about that, now that I have finished all Doom games, from the classic series Doom64 still remains my favorite, for now. Although the other classic Doom games may be more exciting or even better, D64 is still the most appealing entry in the series to me.

 

Btw, "If Plutonia is death metal then TNT is black metal.", I genuinely didn't get what you meant here, though I made an assumption.

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I feel like most stuff has been covered so I'll just add 2 small points: Some hitscanner BS was actually more annoying for me in TNT than Plutonia (perhaps partially because you expect it less) and in certain spots TNT looks even uglier than the ugliest rooms in Doom2. That said, there is plenty of inventive creativity and the new music, textures and skies really added to the atmosphere. Plutonia is more consistent, but TNT is arguably a lot more adventurous.

 

I still enjoy TNT. Hell, I think all of the official Classic Doom campaigns are still fun to this day, primarily because there always seems to be a lot of thought put into encounters. Haphazard enemy placement is pretty rare in the iwads all around.

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Great midi. Good atmosphere. Really not a fan of the gameplay at all.

 

However I will always find 'disaster area' hilarious.

Edited by Killer5
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2 hours ago, Agent6 said:

First things first, although I did not truly enjoy Plutonia due to its difficulty, I'm am actually preferring it over TNT. Surprising?

Not at all.

 

I felt like the maps in which they actually tried to make normal levels were awful, but the maps where they tried weird or wild gimmicks/themes were pretty cool. 

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well...

 

Dead Zone is probably some of the uglier stuff I've played, but the custom MIDI is my absolute favourite. Crater is myfirstmap.wad and there are some oddballs here and there... (Stronghold...)

 

However, there are great maps, Metal and Mt Pain are really nice, as well as Wormhole with its unique idea. The opener is also pretty nice, surprisingly, if we forget about multiplayer :O)

 

All in all, it's the least coherent and equalized IWAD, but it's certainly not crap!

Edited by NaZa

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Favorite: Map20

Least Favorite: Map08 (music, mandatory secret, last room BS)

 

IIRC, Map28 is by Milo because of those curvy bumpy walls, and Map18, 31 and 32 are by Dario. If you enjoy Plutonia, you would probably enjoy these maps, but Map31 is really infamous for that multiplayer only Yellow Keycard.

 

I think confusing is one feature of TNT because they want to be a little bit puzzle-ish, so you can see some similar feeling in Icarus: Alien Vanguard and Eternal Doom. Talking about custom music, I really like Infinite (Map10 & 18) and Horizon (Map20, despite the abrupt ending). However, I really hate Into the Beast's Belly (Map08, 27 & 30), and I always call this music the DooMed Music because this music gave me extra hate for those particular maps...

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TNT is that WAD that I want to love and finish, but I just can't do that completely, because I am currently stuck. I feel like Map 09 Stronghold holds me back. I tried playing it 2 to 3 times and it felt really cheap to me, so I always let it go, instead of trying a bit harder.

Otherwise, I will agree with @galileo31dos01 on Death's bells and Wormhole. That track is amazing. I get lost in it and it feels great in a really unique way. And that level is one of my favourites. That's because I hadn't seen such a gimmick before and a few seconds after I first time travelled, the realization of what had happened in the level, hit me with a hammer in the head. I was speechless...

Another favourite for me, is that level with a room containing 2 huge pumps (it is imprinted in my mind for no real reason).

 

Think I am going to try TNT again tomorrow (seeing Final Doom threads motivates me).

 

Edit: Apparently, I am dumb. It was Map 9 that I couldn't finish and not Map 8, which was just average.

Edited by ShotgunDemolition
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1 hour ago, Agent6 said:

Btw, "If Plutonia is death metal then TNT is black metal.", I genuinely didn't get what you meant here, though I made an assumption.

I find TNT to be quite edgy in its intermission texts, bitter and spiteful towards the UAC and the demons. There's a common rustic steel theme, blood stained and cold, later on charred and hellish from the other dimension, a militant slaughtering of many hitscanners, and the music varying between ambient melodies and harsh loudness.

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It's an interesting ensemble but it receives far more attention than it deserves thanks to its commercial status. If it were Icarus making up the second half of Final Doom, your memfises and Unis may very well be talking about the atmospheric and exploratory elements true to that set of maps, instead; how the end-of-level matchbox motif with its red keys vied with Plutonia's glowing diamonds for inspiring continuity in modern works, or something. Capn Clever observed in one of the EotW dissections of Team TNT (I think it was this episode, oddly enough) that Icarus fits a model better suited for public consumption with its sharper focus in ship/planet/simulation navigation, and that at some point it must have been destined for the shelves in Evilution's place. I can't help but agree. Certainly I think there are some unique traits to the IWAD that you can discover—and imagine—with enough examination, but this is also true of a number of works that haven't had the fortune of being placed under the commercial spotlight.

 

Mustain, O'Brien and the Casalis are way cool. Brian Kidby goes alright as well.

Edited by Alfonzo
Fixed link

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On 12/27/2017 at 0:48 PM, Agent6 said:

Your thoughts on TNT Evilution

 

What do I think of TNT?

 

It needed more Egyptian levels with missing yellow key cards!

 

 

Edited by Lüt
over-quote much?
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Icarus is much weaker than Evilution. It looks rushed and has many filler and weak maps. And it went too far with realistic designs. Icarus is closer to Hell To Pay when it comes to commercial wads.

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It definitely has some filler levels on board the ship, yes, and I find it less fun to play than Evilution despite the idea behind it being stronger i.e. it actually has one. Drawing similarities to Hell to Pay, though, assuming commercialization, is skewed by an understanding of where consensus sees Icarus now. Who can say how it would have shaped community sensibilities if it had been played at an early age by more would-be level designers? The structuring and setting of its levels is immediately standout. Given 20 years and a few inspired projects, that could paint a very different image.

Edited by Alfonzo

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1 hour ago, Memfis said:

Icarus is closer to Hell To Pay when it comes to commercial wads.

are you implying that hell to pay is not the greatest wad in existence

i am extremely offended

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I consider TNT: Evilution to be the weakest of the IWADs in almost all categories. In terms of gameplay and visuals, it's gimmicky at best, and terrible at worst. I don't really enjoy any of the maps in Evilution, except for Stronghold, Pharaoh, and Carribean. That being said, I think Evilution gets a free pass (or to be more precise, noticed) because it was commercialized.

 

Now, Evilution is a commercialized community project with a custom soundtrack. Even with that status, it didn't really bring anything new to the table. There were other community projects released at the same time (like Memento Mori I & II, which also had custom soundtracks). There were other projects that were commercialized (like Perdition's Gate and Hell to Pay). There were other projects that tried to create a sense of adventure just like Evilution (like Icarus: Alien Vanguard and Eternal Doom). Even when it was released, Evilution competed with other mapsets that did similar things (and in some cases, arguably better).

 

This is in sharp contrast to Plutonia, which established a paradigm of Doom gameplay that people still emulate to this day. In my post in the Plutonia thread, I mentioned how Evilution served as the primary example for experimentation in Doom maps. While still true, experimentation should not be the object of "praise" in a medium (Doom mapping) that was so young at the time. It's a new medium, so people will inevitably try "new" things because not many things have been tried. The irony is that Plutonia, a rip-off paradise, is more influential to modern Doom gameplay than mapsets that were "trying something new", primarily because there was nothing that had Plutonia's gameplay and difficulty around the time it was released (except for Hell Revealed, which still offered a noticeably different style of gameplay).

 

As a whole, the best part about Evilution is that it brought Plutonia. Evilution never really stood on its own merits and has little to no legacy. Hilariously enough, Evilution is also a good example of a "rushed community project" with little to no quality control. Something that still plagues the modern Doom community to a certain degree. Unfortunately, that might also be Evilution's greatest legacy.

Edited by SGS Man
Called “Stronghold” as “Metal”
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TNT Evilution is pretty good. It's my second favorite IWAD. I like the attempt at some psuedo-realistic structures that were made in the design at the time. That really stuck with me.

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I have to agree that the atmosphere in evilution is one of it's strongest points, map14 and map20 are my favorites solely because of that reason and they have very moody midis to go with them.

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7 hours ago, Uni said:

I'm so glad TNT Evilution was added to the official IWADs, it was such a great addition to Doom II whether with its midi tracks, the far and few new textures and of course the new levels and concepts. But to me, TNT Evilution is all about the adventure it gives us.

I agree.  The overall scope and feel of TNT more than makes up for its dodgy maps, imo.

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While I do acknowledge that there are bad maps that easily stand out as some of the worst official Doom maps, I find TNT: Evilution incredible on the exploration aspect of it and how some maps feels varied and distinct from one another, plus the atmosphere and music is just great. The gameplay is not as consistent as Plutonia, but if anything, that is what kept me interested in playing and preparing for what tricks will come next. MAP04: Wormhole remains to be one of my favorite maps across the official Doom IWADs, the level design of it is fantastic and the music helps.

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