Brutal Doom wins mod of the year on Mod DB

[snapshot]

6 minutes ago, Lampenpam said:

But PB wasn't compatible with e-day either, acording to Mark

Yes because this was Mark's intention to make his mod incompatible with PB, not the other way around.

[Lampenpam]

@dmg_64

 

I don't think so, e-day doesn't even work with vanilla. 

[snapshot]

He literally states it requires bdv21 in the image you posted.

[Rachael]

24 minutes ago, MetroidJunkie said:

You're making the assumption that everyone's situation is the same, what if it brings someone's machine to the breaking point and it crashes? What if they were doing something important in the background? You can claim these are rare situations and that it isn't reasonable to assume they'll happen but maybe you shouldn't go out of your way to potentially force it just because you want to get some payback at the devs of Project Brutality. Insta-kill the player, make the enemies immortal, make Doom Guy's head laugh at you, you don't have to do something that legit can cause software/hardware issues with someone's computer.

 

I already conceded that maybe Mark shouldn't face punishment on this forum since he didn't break any of its rules but you can't seriously tell me that this is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

I will agree that what Mark did was fairly petty and I already called him out for it. It's not cool, but that's as far as my condemnation goes with him, at least as far as this incident is concerned.

 

However, I think your argument is really hyperbolic. Back in the 80's and 90's machines were literally designed to run at 100% CPU speed constantly. In fact, "Energy Star" really did not become a thing until well after the original IBM PC-XT came out. Before that, we didn't even rely on the HALT CPU instructions, we just put things in idle loops. (*shivers!*)

 

Even so, removing the frame rate cap and vsync on GZDoom will send either your GPU or CPU to 100% anyway - whichever bottlenecks first (depending on the system). And people run this way constantly all the time with no issue.

 

While you can make a serious case that for example, even someone like me, refuses to run GZDoom this way (I like quiet systems without the fans kicking up to max), that's not to say the system can't handle it - and even so, GZDoom is in an unresposive state well before any serious overheating issues kick in, and Windows is already asking you by that time if you want to kill the process before any even theoretical damage can be done.

 

Even if heating becomes a serious issue, both processor sets are designed to lower their voltage and power consumption when heat creep kicks in in order to stem damage - in fact, shutting themselves down is really a worst-case scenario that almost never occurs except in the most poorly designed or poorly maintained systems.

 

To be quite honest, I think you're going to have far more serious issues with heat problems on your system running Fallout 4 than you ever will running Mark's shenanigan here, especially since it can only consume one core anyway. (For the record though, Mark, I still haven't changed my stance that it was extremely petty of you to do that)

[dew]

11 minutes ago, Cynical said:

Also, it doesn't matter what you're running in the background if I understand what this script is doing correctly; once you hit 50% CPU usage total, the script is going to stop working.

Beg pardon? This sounds like you're horribly misunderstanding Edward's example of overloading one core of a two-core processor. How the hell would that script know how much CPU is it using, maybe except "all it's allowed, because it's an equivalent of a zipbomb"?

[Olroda]

I hoped things would have cooled off a bit since my last visit, but no. This entire thread is really fucked up. I haven't seen anything like it before, to be honest.

It's like a hateful choir of ignorance and petty hypocrisy - a reflection of society today.

 

I find it unfortunate that this site turned to utter trash; I used to like it when the main topic of the day was DOOM.

[Cynical]

Except it's not really the equivalent of a zipbomb because it's not crapping on your HD (and physically destroying your SSD, if you run Doom on one for some reason).

 

The script doesn't need to know crap -- GZDoom isn't going to get beyond a certain amount of CPU usage because it can only run in one thread.  And, besides, as multiple people have pointed out, GZDoom is going to eat the exact same amount of resources with or without this script if you're not limiting the framerate somehow.

 

EDIT: How about any wad that causes GZDoom to chug -- are they all "the equivalent(s) of a zipbomb"?  When I first got to the castle overlook in Frozen Time, it my performance dropped to shit -- malicious wad?  What about the big-ass lava cave in Deus Vult?  Hell, let's go further, what about Nuts.wad -- why is such a malicious wad, on par with malware, still on the archive?

Edited January 3, 2018 by Cynical

[Rachael]

2 minutes ago, Olroda said:

 

I find it unfortunate that this site turned to utter trash; I used to like it when the main topic of the day was DOOM.

There are many external factors influencing this discussion that have absolutely nothing at all to do with it by themselves. We aren't exactly living in an ideal world right now and it is certainly less ideal than it was even 4 years ago.

 

People, whether they realize it or not, bring their life stresses here, and it all comes out in shitstorms like this. That's just the way things are right now, and probably will be for another few years at least if not more.

[gaspe]

29 minutes ago, yakfak said:

can someone gimme a list of vanilla stuff that gets noticeably changed in a gameplay way by Brutal Doom? for example I know that flaming barrels have a damage radius

 

I wanna make absolutely sure that my megaproject map is totally unplayable in the mod

Go wild with spiderdemons in places where they barely fit.

[Da Werecat]

4 minutes ago, Olroda said:

I used to like it when the main topic of the day was DOOM.

Maybe you should check some other threads.

 

Then again, in most other threads there's not much opportunity for posturing.

[Lampenpam]

22 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

He literally states it requires bdv21 in the image you posted.

So you agree, that was my point. It doesnt work with vanilla. It doesnt work with anything, it requires bd21

[Zulk RS]

24 minutes ago, Lampenpam said:

@dmg_64

 

I don't think so, e-day doesn't even work with vanilla. 

It's kinda funny how the version of Hell on Earth Starter pack he released before BD v21 is actually beatable with Complex Doom. I loaded it with that for the lolz and it did not disappoint

 

EDIT: Maybe I should try running the latest version with that for the lolz too.

[snapshot]

3 minutes ago, Lampenpam said:

So you agree. It doesnt work with vanilla. It doesnt work with anything, it requires bd21

I think there's a slight misunderstanding going on here.

[Rachael]

22 minutes ago, Rachael said:

To be quite honest, I think you're going to have far more serious issues with heat problems on your system running Fallout 4 than you ever will running Mark's shenanigan here, especially since it can only consume one core anyway. (For the record though, Mark, I still haven't changed my stance that it was extremely petty of you to do that)

Hell you know what? I realized after I typed this -

 

GZDoom is going to have more issues with NUTS.wad than Mark's petty shenanigan here - because that mod all by itself caps the CPU when all the monsters become activated. GG CPU. And yet, you don't hear of anyone having to put a fire extinguisher to their precious rig just because they dared to try that.

[Illasera]

Let's address some arguments from a technical perspective.

My credentials : Professional software engineer for embedded systems (Professional in this context means, an employee, getting paid by a company).

__________________________________

 

The argument of : "Can the over-spawning script hurt my machine?" (Addressing Linux kernel and windows NT kernel)

If you don't have swap/page file write enabled, Yes, absolutely; it can and most likely will lead to a BSOD when running out of virtual memory.

 

If you do have swap/page file, then YES, absolutely, again, This time, the kernel page system will invoke a "task killer" to save more memory, however, it is more than common that the task killer will kill other tasks that it will find to be offensive to virtual memory usage instead of zdoom/gzdoom, it may try to target your web browser instead and kill it off, or your excel spreadsheet that you are crafting for your boss during your break, i don't think the boss will enjoy the prank.

 

CPU usage : depends on the amount of threads zdoom/gzdoom uses

depends on the amount of physical cores your CPU have, if you have 1 core, it will take 100% and can actually lead to a system lockdown if the kernel won't be able to allocate enough quantum (thread time slices) for other threads like.... the system scheduler itself (Which will lead to a complete system freeze).

 

If you have more than one core, it is still dangerous, windows/linux based operating systems are TIME-SHARING systems, meaning that other program also require and use your CPU, so if you think it only uses 50% of your CPU? well what if the other programs use the other 50%? that's 100%.

 

____________________________________

Vs the Prank/malware : 

Reading the above and adding a "prank" to it , is considered admission of guilt and in the private sector and it is legal grounds for termination that can even follow with a law suit (sgtmark, you would get fired and even sued if you pulled that in an actual company).

 

it is a malware module by definition but due to the nature zdoom/gzdoom way of loading .wad modules, it can not be marked as one by an anti-virus.

____________________________________

 

In sgtmark's defence : don't ban him because he didn't break any rules, the guy is allowed to say whatever he want to say , its just words,

I also suggest revoking his ban on other forums as well, Let the man say what he wanna say, he is not hurting anyone, if you don't like him, ignore him.

 

Against SgtMark's Brutal Doom : His product on the other hand should be blacklisted (blacklisted means warned against using) (Or at least this version).

I think people should double/triple check upcoming versions made by him and may even consider protest by not supporting him anymore.

 

In favor of SgtMark's Brutal Doom : I see people dismiss SgtMark's work based on this prank, I personally hate idiots who dismiss previous work done by a person because they don't like the person, If he fucked up on one case, judge him by that case, and don't retroactively dismiss all the hard work done before the fuck up.

_____________________________________

 

Other people to blame : Randy H and Gref Z, for not adding hard-coded spawn limit / memory protection layer, to protect from register underflow/overflow and memory abuse.

 

I also read some comments about SgtMark ruining the community's image, SgtMark doesn't represent the community, he is an individual and he does not owe any of us anything nor speaks on our behalf, he can do whatever he wants and if we don't like it, we can just not use his products and ignore him.

Players tend to think the developers/modders owe them something , absolutely not! the developer doesn't owe you guys shit, even if you are paying, you guys are coming to the developer for product, not the other way around, I rather see SgtMark's vision of doom than some idiot player with a feedback on what he think the mod should be.

 

If the player got a better version as to what doom should be like, s/he can make their own mod. (statement in general).

 

The buyer should always do his/her research before investing.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Illasera : Double post by mistake, fixing typos

[snapshot]

On 1/3/2018 at 8:29 PM, Illasera said:

.... he is an individual and he does not owe any of us anything

except some proper crediting for all the stuff he used without permission.

Edited June 18, 2020 by sluggard

[Cynical]

Which he's been trying to do for some time now.

 

Seriously, no other mod in the entire community is held up to the same standards for crediting everyone who made every resource. 

[Rachael]

13 minutes ago, Illasera said:

 

The argument of : "Can the over-spawning script can hurt my machine?" (Addressing Linux kernel and windows NT kernel)

If you don't have swap/page file write enabled, Yes, absolutely, , it can and most likely will lead to a BSOD when running out of virtual memory.

In my experience, Windows kills tasks automatically before such a thing ever happens. Especially when it's only a single process responsible for this, in this case, GZDoom. You underestimate the safeguards that are already in place precisely for this kind of thing. (Admittedly, virtual memory thrashing will likely be more of a problem before this occurs, but the safeguards will still kick in before a blue screen of death does)

 

13 minutes ago, Illasera said:

Other people to blame : Randy H and Gref Z, for not adding hard-coded spawn limit / memory protection layer, to protect from register underflow/overflow and memory abuse.

However I will partially agree here. There should be some sort of spawn limit to keep things sane. Some maps are utterly disastrous with how they abuse spawn effects and those are actually legitimate. However in a very complex hobby project such as this, it is extremely difficult to account for every single case of this, especially considering the fact that most safety regulations inside the engine can easily hurt performance, which such complex mods depend on very heavily to work properly.

[Lampenpam]

11 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

except some proper crediting for all the stuff he used without permission lol

This isn't the case anymore since years, everyone who provided assets is properly credited. Meanwhile Painkiller still uses assets he has no permission of. link

[snapshot]

9 minutes ago, Lampenpam said:

everyone who provided assets is properly credited.

Nope, there's still some uncredited assets, which i'm not going to go through again, backtrack little bit in this thread and you'll find out.

[Cynical]

And he's already said that he's adding those people who he missed in the next build (and he only actually "missed" one of them completely; the other got credit for programming work, and Sgt. Mark just didn't realize he had also done spriting work on that asset).

 

Seriously, the "plagiarism" drama is just stupid.  When was the last time you saw someone use the Vanilla-compatible dehacked Afrit and credit the original sprite maker?  Hell, how often do people who use it even mention what wad they ripped it from?  Almost never.  This sort of stuff is totally rampant in the community, people only care when it's Brutal Doom.

[pulkmees]

I'm guessing since the mod became popular, the people who don't usually care about being credited, suddenly started caring.

He is not exactly the quiet type online as well, some shit was said by both parties. Then people, who just like to get outraged got involved.

 

is there some objective account of what actually happened ?

[Rachael]

8 minutes ago, Cynical said:

people only care when it's Brutal Doom.

Call out any random mod and stick to your guns enough and it'll stick. It's a standard the community holds itself to, and while many things do get through the cracks, it's only the most popular ones that receive the most scrutiny because more people are playing it and more people care. (And original artists have more to lose with someone else taking credit for their work)

 

Even as someone who is calling out the community on its hyperbole, you yourself should understand how hyperbolic they can be when you raise enough stink.

[VGamingJunkie]

That's because he's basically the poster child of Doom modding. Whether fair or not, Brutal Doom is what people think of most when they think of the Doom Modding Community. People who barely know anything about it know about Brutal Doom because it's legit been on news publications. Basically, what pulkmees said as I was typing this. The more popular you are, the more people will scrutinize you. That's the burden of being a celebrity, even if you just happen to be the popular guy. While it's something the community should care about as a whole, it's treated with an extra magnification if it's the top dog.

[Da Werecat]

33 minutes ago, Illasera said:

In sgtmark's defence : don't ban him because he didn't break any rules, the guy is allowed to say whatever he want to say , its just words,

I also suggest revoking his ban on other forums as well, Let the man say what he wanna say, he is not hurting anyone, if you don't like him, ignore him.

Banning for words is normal. In fact, it's what people are usually being banned for.

 

33 minutes ago, Illasera said:

Also read some comments about SgtMark ruining the community's image, SgtMark doesn't represent the community, he is an individual and he does not owe any of us anything nor speaks on our behalf, he can do whatever he wants and if we don't like it, we can just not use his products and ignore him.

Maybe he shouldn't represent the community, but it seems to be happening regardless of anyone's wishes - because he has the most mainstream exposure. And while it's true that no one can force you to do anything, that doesn't mean everyone has to condone what you're doing.

[Lampenpam]

26 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

Nope, there's still some uncredited assets, which i'm not going to go through again

 

Yeah just read this and, it's just an oversight. Mark did his best the past years to get everyone credited. That person could have get in contact any time to get his name credited and so it will since the next build. So my point still stands. If you really want to complain about lacking credits, you should go to Painkiller.  

But if you just need reasons to hate on brutal doom, you should use a different one. 

[snapshot]

I never said I hate Brutal Doom, I Just think it's unfair to use other people's work and take all credit for it, I mean come on, who's even going to notice that hidden credits menu.

[Kaal979]

Im though wondering why mappers

dont use more marine war units. 

[Cynical]

13 minutes ago, Rachael said:

Call out any random mod and stick to your guns enough and it'll stick. It's a standard the community holds itself to, and while many things do get through the cracks, it's only the most popular ones that receive the most scrutiny because more people are playing it and more people care. (And original artists have more to lose with someone else taking credit for their work)

 

Even as someone who is calling out the community on its hyperbole, you yourself should understand how hyperbolic they can be when you raise enough stink.

Oh come on, you know it's not a standard the community holds itself to.  It's not even small/obscure mods; look at Scythe 2, and tell me where you can find a credit for the author of the Afrit sprites.  Or the stolen Nightwish, Symphony X, and Fields of the Nephilim midis (either the artists who made the original compositions OR the people who made a MIDI version of them).  And yet, there's never been any drama around that mod, which is as popular as just about any other within the Doomworld community.

 

It has nothing to do with standards or popularity, and everything to do with people not liking Brutal Doom and being upset by the fact that a mod that pretty much ruins Doom has become the face of Doom modding -- a perfectly natural thing to be upset about -- and then pulling at straws to find any reason to hate it.

[Lampenpam]

10 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

who's even going to notice that hidden credits menu.

Aren't the credits displayed in the background plus also in a txt file? :I Might be subjective, but imo that's quite obvious seeing all credits in the menu.