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Ajora

Brutal Doom wins mod of the year on Mod DB

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7 hours ago, Sinael said:

1) Monster teleports. Actual vanilla are mostly fine, but vanilla and boom-compatible maps with greater monster counts that rely on teleporting a lot of enemies at once will face an issue where some monsters do not go into the teleporters once disturbed by gunfire, delivered to them through soundchannel tricks.

This causes some encounters to "underdeliver" and make 100% the level impossible due to monsters unwilling to go out of their pens. Happens fairly often on Plutonia 2 as it has a lot of monster teleportation that was done this way.

It's doubly worse if the monsters are required to be defeated for progression - then you get stuck for good.

2) Teleportation sometimes sends entities into the walls and out of bounds due to the way BD entities interact with each other upon collision. This again can lead to required enemies becoming unreachable.

3) The opposite of the (1). Some times enemies get riled up way before they meet the player, and due to the way they behave in BD, sometimes start infighting among themselves, so when player arrives to the supposed encounter , half of it is already dead.

Again, this may break the progression, and does so in Scythe 1/2 where in some levels a map-wide infight starts as soon as players gets in.

4) Boom and not Vanilla: Voodoo Doll scripting is prone to get broken due to the way Player actor (and by extent a Voodoo doll) get altered - it may not activate the lines it should, or may activate them too early in some cases, breaking and altering progression in ways like: part of the stairs not rising, switch not triggering, part of the combination not working, levels ending prematurely. Combine teleporting conveyor belted, bugged up Voodoo Doll with issue (2) and you get a recepie for disaster, like Voodoo doll getting a small chance of going out of bounds completely disabling any scripts that were reliant on it. In Scythe 2 certain maps have a chance of autofinishing themselves in 20-30 seconds due to Voodoo Doll going commando, courtesy of BD.

5)Monsters having additional hitbox actors attached to them, and having their own properties altered may make them spawn in the wrong way or get pushed in the wrong way. Good example of that is column-type monster closets that have space above them. If they fit just-right in vanilla, they might be unfitting in BD and spawn enemy outside or on top of it. Happens sometimes to 2 cyberdemonds on one of the final maps of Plutonia 2 for example.


All of these issues have been fixed on previous builds. It's actually much easier to make a map Brutal-Doom exclusive than anti-Brutal Doom. Monsters ar less likely to be stuck on places, they are able to navigate faulty/sloped terrain better, and the list goes on.


 

4 hours ago, Sinael said:

On other note, Modding is a job only until a big company DMCAs you and shuts your patreon down.


Bethesda already contacted me over my Patreon, they asked me to never post patron-only private download links and state that it's for maintaining my youtube channel, and state that the "custom version" reward I offer to the high end patrons should be public uploaded somewhere and allowing any person, patron or not, to have access to the link. They said everything is ok as long I don't try to hide something behind a paywall.
About the whole money talk, what is the difference between accepting donations from supporters to allowing some youtuber to stream your mod, put ads on it, and make money, not depending on a supporter's help, but actually using the wads commercially under a sponsoring contract just like if it was a tv show? Where is the witch hunt over youtubers? (oh and for the record, Bethesda is also totally ok with monetizing videos)

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10 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

About the whole money talk, what is the difference between accepting donations from supporters to allowing some youtuber to stream your mod, put ads on it, and make money, not depending on a supporter's help, but actually using the wads commercially under a sponsoring contract just like if it was a tv show? Where is the witch hunt over youtubers? (oh and for the record, Bethesda is also totally ok with monetizing videos)

The difference is that let's players can use any game or mod they like, they don't need brutal doom to make money, and they serve as free advertisement for you and your stuff, or the stuff of others respectively. Accepting donations also is not a problem, unless of course you put stuff behind a paywall which contains copy-righted material owned by another company, because at that point you are much closer to selling it, rather than accepting donations. Back to let's players: They don't put anything behind a paywall when they publish a YouTube video.

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11 hours ago, Olroda said:

If you can't detect the problem, you are most likely part of it. I'm starting to wonder why you haven't switched your cat for an anime girl yet.

That must be it. I will think about conforming better to your image of an evil Doomworld debaser, I promise.

 

Hate to ruin my Short Snappy Response with common sense, but not detecting a problem at all is something I didn't admit to. The thing is: there are always problems, perfect communities don't exist, and Doomworld always sucked one way or another. If you didn't notice it before - well, you know the answer; or maybe your eyes were closed until someone struck a nerve and you suddenly started to pay attention.

 

Doesn't mean we don't need to try and be better, but this apocalyptic vision of yours seems like an overreaction.

 

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I actually played through PL2 with the latest BD release which is why I mentioned it a lot, and those are the isues I encountered just yesturday, but whatever.

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10 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

About the whole money talk, what is the difference between accepting donations from supporters to allowing some youtuber to stream your mod, put ads on it, and make money, not depending on a supporter's help, but actually using the wads commercially under a sponsoring contract just like if it was a tv show? Where is the witch hunt over youtubers? (oh and for the record, Bethesda is also totally ok with monetizing videos)

You should know there's a huge difference, the consumer isn't the one paying for it. Advertising companies are the ones paying Youtube to put ads on those videos, who in turn give you a cut. The advertisers are paying for the video, not the people watching it. Valve is the same way, they won't let you monetize anything made with their assets but they'll let you make ad revenue off of videos containing their assets. So it's not the product itself being paid for, it's the advertisement on it that's being paid for. If Bethesda went after that, they'd have to go after review sites that also slap ads around their articles of said games.

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10 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:


and state that the "custom version" reward I offer to the high end patrons should be public uploaded somewhere and allowing any person, patron or not, to have access to the link.

 

Speaking of that, has anybody actually asked for a custom version?

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I actually like Brutal Doom, especially the Starter Pack levels. That said, classic gameplay is still the best.

 

Still, Blade of Agony should have won. 

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5 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

I actually like Brutal Doom, especially the Starter Pack levels. That said, classic gameplay is still the best.

 

Still, Blade of Agony should have won. 

Same thought here.

But I guess people like more Brutal Doom.

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Posted (edited)

Blade of Agony still has plenty of chances to win though, especially after finishing it/ironing out the kinks. It took BD years to get the award. I think Mark deserves it too, even if BD kinda ruins the balance. He's been working on it for what EIGHT years?! Where did all that time go?

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This might be somewhat off-topic, but today I was checking the Doom Wiki for info about the Baron of Hell (I wanted to see what eye color they gave it on the original game, didn't find the answer anywhere, but that's irrelevant here) and I found out the article has quite a big paragraph dedicated to it's behavior on Brutal Doom. I mean, yeah, BD is extremely popular, but is it relevant and important enough to justify such amount of information about it on the wiki? Does really anybody cares that the Baron and Hell Knight have red blood on BD instead of green so much to put it there? After all, it's nothing more than a mod, it's not even a new game.

 

I might sound a bit salty here, but I really wonder what's really the big deal about BD. Honestly, it's not even that good anyway.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, CoTeCiO said:

This might be somewhat off-topic, but today I was checking the Doom Wiki for info about the Baron of Hell and I found out the article has quite a big paragraph dedicated to it's behavior on Brutal Doom.

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Baron_of_Hell

I don't see any such content in the only relevant DoomWiki we have.

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Someone was using the wrong wiki, not the right one as you linked there, Ed. :)

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1 hour ago, CoTeCiO said:

This might be somewhat off-topic, but today I was checking the Doom Wiki for info about the Baron of Hell (I wanted to see what eye color they gave it on the original game, didn't find the answer anywhere, but that's irrelevant here) and I found out the article has quite a big paragraph dedicated to it's behavior on Brutal Doom. I mean, yeah, BD is extremely popular, but is it relevant and important enough to justify such amount of information about it on the wiki? Does really anybody cares that the Baron and Hell Knight have red blood on BD instead of green so much to put it there? After all, it's nothing more than a mod, it's not even a new game.

 

I might sound a bit salty here, but I really wonder what's really the big deal about BD. Honestly, it's not even that good anyway.

Wrong Wiki.

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Posted (edited)

 

4 hours ago, CoTeCiO said:

This might be somewhat off-topic, but today I was checking the Doom Wiki for info about the Baron of Hell (I wanted to see what eye color they gave it on the original game, didn't find the answer anywhere, but that's irrelevant here) and I found out the article has quite a big paragraph dedicated to it's behavior on Brutal Doom. I mean, yeah, BD is extremely popular, but is it relevant and important enough to justify such amount of information about it on the wiki? Does really anybody cares that the Baron and Hell Knight have red blood on BD instead of green so much to put it there? After all, it's nothing more than a mod, it's not even a new game.

 

I might sound a bit salty here, but I really wonder what's really the big deal about BD. Honestly, it's not even that good anyway.

To answer your  question if anyone cares about the baron's blood color, I can only say for myself, Gameplay is KING always,

Visuals come last, That been said, god is in the details, in video games, visuals are part of one's immersion.

 

As to what is the big deal with Brutal Doom?

Its somewhat of a polish layer (for the purists at least, the non-purist mode in BD is full of whatever techno modern crap SgtMark can get his hands on, Just a bunch of un-needed fillers (Sadly enough, SgtMark is letting it spill to the purist mode as well as of later versions).

 

Doom (as well as Hexen) were in dire need for a polish layer, more frames, more responsiveness and slightly better AI,

A word on Hexen (The game lacks content (Not enough maps), so what raven software has done is make everything slow as hell for more playtime.

 

Back to Doom Classic :

The main gun for example in the original doom is beyond useless (No , that's not the way it meant to be, each weapon was designed for something else)

The AI chooses to wander to a random direction every X frames in the original doom, In Brutal Doom it wanders around more frequently (As in , in shorter logical frames intervals).

you also have better sound assets, Better Visuals and some more gore (Although more gore and more blood details/spilling patterns would be nice (But there is a limit to how much visual data you can get from a few pixels, and you also need to make sure it doesn't distract you from the main game by blocking the player's viewport/collision).

 

So overall its an overhaul.

Edited by Illasera

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11 hours ago, Illasera said:

 

To answer your  question if anyone cares about the baron's blood color, I can only say for myself, Gameplay is KING always,

Visuals come last, That been said, god is in the details, in video games, visuals are part of one's immersion.

 

As to what is the big deal with Brutal Doom?

Its somewhat of a polish layer (for the purists at least, the non-purist mode in BD is full of whatever techno modern crap SgtMark can get his hands on, Just a bunch of un-needed fillers (Sadly enough, SgtMark is letting it spill to the purist mode as well as of later versions).

 

Doom (as well as Hexen) were in dire need for a polish layer, more frames, more responsiveness and slightly better AI,

A word on Hexen (The game lacks content (Not enough maps), so what raven software has done is make everything slow as hell for more playtime.

 

Back to Doom Classic :

The main gun for example in the original doom is beyond useless (No , that's not the way it meant to be, each weapon was designed for something else)

The AI chooses to wander to a random direction every X frames in the original doom, In Brutal Doom it wanders around more frequently (As in , in shorter logical frames intervals).

you also have better sound assets, Better Visuals and some more gore (Although more gore and more blood details/spilling patterns would be nice (But there is a limit to how much visual data you can get from a few pixels, and you also need to make sure it doesn't distract you from the main game by blocking the player's viewport/collision).

 

So overall its an overhaul.

I don't really see flipping off monsters and interrumping gameplay to watch Doomguy rip apart a demon as an improvement, overhaul or polish of the main game. If you need a visual overhaul, Smooth Doom or Beautiful Doom are more than enough and if you think the pistol is beyond useless, you don't know much about saving ammo then. Also, BD is the king of cluttering pixels and gore all over you blocking the viewport. I mean, yeah, it's fun and everything, but it's in no way an improvement nor "the way Doom should have been" as some other people has called it and to be honest, it gets old pretty quickly, I had some laughs and fun for the first ten minutes and then got bored and came back to the usual, old-school dooming.

 

And why the hell are there two Doom wikis?!

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23 minutes ago, CoTeCiO said:

And why the hell are there two Doom wikis?!

 

Cause god is dead.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Illasera said:

 

To answer your question if anyone cares about the baron's blood color, I can only say for myself, Gameplay is KING always,

Visuals come last, That been said, god is in the details, in video games, visuals are part of one's immersion.

 

As to what is the big deal with Brutal Doom?

Its somewhat of a polish layer (for the purists at least, the non-purist mode in BD is full of whatever techno modern crap SgtMark can get his hands on, Just a bunch of un-needed fillers (Sadly enough, SgtMark is letting it spill to the purist mode as well as of later versions).

 

Doom (as well as Hexen) were in dire need for a polish layer, more frames, more responsiveness and slightly better AI,

A word on Hexen (The game lacks content (Not enough maps), so what raven software has done is make everything slow as hell for more playtime.

 

Back to Doom Classic :

The main gun for example in the original doom is beyond useless (No , that's not the way it meant to be, each weapon was designed for something else)

The AI chooses to wander to a random direction every X frames in the original doom, In Brutal Doom it wanders around more frequently (As in , in shorter logical frames intervals).

you also have better sound assets, Better Visuals and some more gore (Although more gore and more blood details/spilling patterns would be nice (But there is a limit to how much visual data you can get from a few pixels, and you also need to make sure it doesn't distract you from the main game by blocking the player's viewport/collision).

 

So overall its an overhaul.

1. No one is flipping over the color of the Baron of Hell. And yes, gameplay is first above all else, but that doesn't mean everybody is going to like the same gameplay and the quality of the changes that Brutal Doom has made are subjective, not objective.

 

2. Tons of other mods have new enemies and/or change the behavior of the enemies, doesn't mean the original enemies aren't a threat if used effectively. Also the part about Hexen not having a certain quantity of maps, more does not translate to quality, as most maps in Doom 1/2 are generally short if you're not going for 100% on them, even then some of the maps are still short regardless.

 

3. If you're referring to the Shotgun or even the Pistol for that matter, then you're not really learning how to use your weapons. Also about the AI, pretty much the AI in Brutal Doom also wanders around the map. Whether unmodded or using Brutal Doom, the AI is trying to kill you by "wandering around" (in other words, looking for you), so I don't really know what your point is there.

 

4. Smooth Doom and Beautiful Doom brings in the visual enhancements, and they don't change the core gameplay. As for sound, subjective, but a loud ear-piercing Doomguy is not really something I would call "better", more so annoying and some of the guns come off as loud, and not in a good way. And while I do agree more blood and gore is nice, the way Brutal Doom does it can be viewed as comical at times, and I don't know about you but Brutal Doom blocks your viewports anyways.

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On 2018-01-04 at 9:41 AM, Da Werecat said:

That must be it. I will think about conforming better to your image of an evil Doomworld debaser, I promise.

 

Hate to ruin my Short Snappy Response with common sense, but not detecting a problem at all is something I didn't admit to. The thing is: there are always problems, perfect communities don't exist, and Doomworld always sucked one way or another. If you didn't notice it before - well, you know the answer; or maybe your eyes were closed until someone struck a nerve and you suddenly started to pay attention.

 

Doesn't mean we don't need to try and be better, but this apocalyptic vision of yours seems like an overreaction.

 

 

That's much better!

Thank you for taking the time of typing up an actual response instead of a hostile three-word dismissal. Of course you lot aren't evil, and there is indeed no such thing as a place where everyone agrees with one another. Disliking or even hating people is fine, as is voicing one's opinion of the same, I think. It's a discussion forum, after all.

 

However, a certain demographic "makes a hen out of a feather" whenever certain topics crop up. They also like to voice their opinion as often as possible, and once confronted about their bullshit, it's the shitty three-word dismissal routine. The very same routine also appears without prior confrontation, because "empty barrels rattle the most".

 

In short, I'm sick of seeing it. It is always the usual suspects. Trash comments, trash opinions. And you better agree with the thrash too, otherwise you are instantly at the same level as someone that had the same type of mustasche as Charlie Chaplin. No arguments needed. One could easily think that the certains have no lives and spend all their time on a shitty forum instead of making new content or playing the damn game which said forum is supposed to be about!

 

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51 minutes ago, Olroda said:

three-word dismissal

You're saying it like it's not something you started your participation in this thread with.


Might be symptomatic. In my experience, people usually notice these things when it's not them or anyone else they agree with.

 

Meanwhile, those "whiners" were probably trying to confront what they thought was bullshit too. Hard to say, since I only have a vague idea of whom it is we're blowing the lid off (outside of this questionable thread).

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Posted (edited)

No idea why i was taken out of context the way i was, I think i was pretty clear with what i wrote but maybe rephrasing will help.

 

 

16 hours ago, CoTeCiO said:

I don't really see flipping off monsters and interrumping gameplay to watch Doomguy rip apart a demon as an improvement, overhaul or polish of the main game. If you need a visual overhaul, Smooth Doom or Beautiful Doom are more than enough and if you think the pistol is beyond useless

...

 

I wrote that doom was in dire need for a polish layer, Brutal Doom is an overhaul version in one aspect.

smooth doom is revising things in another way, mostly texture-wise, and 1000 other mods are doing it in 1000 different way.

 

I couldn't give a flying fuck if it was subjective or objective or good or bad as i was misquoted, its a fact and that's all there is to it , its an overhaul revision.

 

14 hours ago, GuyNamedErick said:

Also about the AI, pretty much the AI in Brutal Doom also wanders around the map. Whether unmodded or using Brutal Doom, the AI is trying to kill you by "wandering around" (in other words, looking for you), so I don't really know what your point is there.

 

As far as monsters wandering around in original doom, yes, they wander (change direction based on semi-RNG) BUT they do it more often in brutal doom,

Keep in mind that since ID tech 1 didn't really have much of an AI system, it was heavily relying on semi-RNG direction changes, and brutal doom increase of calls to wander around and chase helps monsters reach their target faster (Kinda works in somewhat of a similar way to how the old Roomba cleaning robots used to work, they will just randomly scan the house on their first few clean-ups, the faster they would wander around aimlessly, the faster they would cover more ground).

 

14 hours ago, GuyNamedErick said:

3. If you're referring to the Shotgun or even the Pistol for that matter, then you're not really learning how to use your weapons. Also about the AI, pretty much the AI in Brutal Doom also wanders around the map. Whether unmodded or using Brutal Doom, the AI is trying to kill you by "wandering around" (in other words, looking for you), so I don't really know what your point is there.

 

As for my argument about going on about the pistol, let me repeat that, the pistol is useless in doom, It fires too slow and does little damage and can not promote painchance, even the fists with X powerup can do tons of damage and have a goal, Chainsaw as well, So i believe that the pistol was an over-sight on behalf of ID's game-design perspective. Brutal Doom kinda gives the pistol a bit more usage by increasing the firerate.

 

14 hours ago, GuyNamedErick said:

The part about Hexen not having a certain quantity of maps, more does not translate to quality, as most maps in Doom 1/2 are generally short if you're not going for 100% on them, even then some of the maps are still short regardless.

 

Yes and "Raven" provided top quality maps, However, they also added a lot of fillers to drag-on the game to further extend the game, And i am talking about gameplay mechanics, Tons of stalling elements for no reason (I can't name them without derailing the topic).

 

14 hours ago, GuyNamedErick said:

1. No one is flipping over the color of the Baron of Hell. And yes, gameplay is first above all else, but that doesn't mean everybody is going to like the same gameplay and the quality of the changes that Brutal Doom has made are subjective, not objective.

 

This is a statement in general , I fear that's the part that folks here misunderstood.

 

I was just pointing out facts, i didn't ask nor anyone else here asked what people like or dislike or what is subjective or what not.

 

I wrote 2 pages ago, If people have a different take on how things should run, They can make a mod themselves, Way more effective than sitting and judging what they like and what they don't like, Sure we can all learn a lot from what people like/dislike, But if there is reasoning behind it and some evidance and methods of improvement , We can learn a lot from, Engage in actual analysis, But what we have here that i am currently tributing to , is a bitchfest.

 

On a sidenote, Toxic community with different opinions and foul language is better than a polite echo-chamber.

Edited by Illasera

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42 minutes ago, Illasera said:

I was just pointing out facts, i didn't ask nor anyone else here asked what people like or dislike or what is subjective or what not.

People tend to speak their mind without being asked to. What can you do?

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1 hour ago, Da Werecat said:

People tend to speak their mind without being asked to. What can you do?

this is also kinda the entire point of a forum

 

or any place of public discussion

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2 hours ago, Illasera said:

1. I wrote that doom was in dire need for a polish layer, Brutal Doom is an overhaul version in one aspect.

smooth doom is revising things in another way, mostly texture-wise, and 1000 other mods are doing it in 1000 different way.

 

2. I couldn't give a flying fuck if it was subjective or objective or good or bad as i was misquoted, its a fact and that's all there is to it , its an overhaul revision.

 

3. As far as monsters wandering around in original doom, yes, they wander (change direction based on semi-RNG) BUT they do it more often in brutal doom,

Keep in mind that since ID tech 1 didn't really have much of an AI system, it was heavily relying on semi-RNG direction changes, and brutal doom increase of calls to wander around and chase helps monsters reach their target faster (Kinda works in somewhat of a similar way to how the old Roomba cleaning robots used to work, they will just randomly scan the house on their first few clean-ups, the faster they would wander around aimlessly, the faster they would cover more ground).

 

4. As for my argument about going on about the pistol, let me repeat that, the pistol is useless in doom, It fires too slow and does little damage and can not promote painchance, even the fists with X powerup can do tons of damage and have a goal, Chainsaw as well, So i believe that the pistol was an over-sight on behalf of ID's game-design perspective. Brutal Doom kinda gives the pistol a bit more usage by increasing the firerate.

 

5. I was just pointing out facts, i didn't ask nor anyone else here asked what people like or dislike or what is subjective or what not.

 

6. I wrote 2 pages ago, If people have a different take on how things should run, They can make a mod themselves, Way more effective than sitting and judging what they like and what they don't like, Sure we can all learn a lot from what people like/dislike, But if there is reasoning behind it and some evidance and methods of improvement , We can learn a lot from, Engage in actual analysis, But what we have here that i am currently tributing to , is a bitchfest.

 

7. On a sidenote, Toxic community with different opinions and foul language is better than a polite echo-chamber.

1. Again, other mods such as Smooth Doom and Beautiful Doom have done that without changing the core gameplay, so that aspect, Brutal Doom can be viewed as a gameplay changer than say an overhaul. Also Brutal Doom is also a mod that revises texture-wise, then again, isn't that what all mods do?

 

2. Nobody have said that Brutal Doom didn't do a lot to change the Doom gameplay, but again, some people might not like it.

 

3. That honestly makes no sense. What you just said there is that the AI has been modified in Brutal Doom, and it is. I don't have much to say here than what I already stated previously.

 

4. Yes, the pistol is redundant once you get the Chaingun, but even still, those who can find use of it often know how to manage their ammo in some situtations where a Shotgun would be much quicker.

 

5. That's the point of a forum, not everyone is supposed to agree with one another, and that's not a bad thing as long as things aren't hostile.

 

6. Many people have done what you said about making mods themselves, some with tons of works into them. Also about what people like or dislike, reasoning or evidence isn't usually a requirement, and while in some cases it can be seen as whining, in the end, some people just don't like some things and there's no other way to put around that. And about this mess of a thread, yes, it is a mess, but you shouldn't take yourself as an exception in it, since you did just contributed to it after all, and you're open for replies once you post something.

 

7. That smells like a recipe for disaster since allowing toxicity going rampant usually ends horribly (obviously). Also not sure what echo chamber you are pointing out exactly.

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Given the choice, I'd take a polite echo chamber over a toxic community. 

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I think an echo chamber implies a certain level of toxicity. Say something "wrong" - get shouted down.

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14 minutes ago, Ajora said:

Given the choice, I'd take a polite echo chamber over a toxic community. 

 

9 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

I think an echo chamber implies a certain level of toxicity. Say something "wrong" - get shouted down.

A balance needs to be struck, since none of these are ideal.

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16 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

I think an echo chamber implies a certain level of toxicity. Say something "wrong" - get shouted down.

 

I'm not saying that this is something I'd find appealing, only that if I absolutely had to choose, I'd prefer it over a place like the IGN forums or 4chan. 

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IMHO BDv21 is very cool and BDv20 should already have won the award. That said @Sergeant_Mark_IV:

I posted some bug reports @moddb but these were ignored, i think these are important so here i go again:

 

There are a couple of infinite loops which hang the game (GZDoom hangs) in deep water sectors:
- STICKY, actor CeilXDeath3, Death State
- Explosives, actor Rocket2, SpawnUnderwater state

 

If you are killed while changing weapons after resurrecting you cannot select any weapon.
That's becouse the duration of the last A_Lower frame (deselect) can't be zero, it's done right for some weapons.

 

The bug of invulnerable revenants before performing their smashing fatality is still there (one A_Chase is left over).

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