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[McD]James

Brutal Doom wins mod of the year on Mod DB

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1 hour ago, Ajora said:

 

I'm not saying that this is something I'd find appealing, only that if I absolutely had to choose, I'd prefer it over a place like the IGN forums or 4chan. 

But then it becomes an argument of "Is it worth it if it means we don't have the freedom to voice dissenting opinions?". Imagine a Doom Forum where all discussions of Brutal Doom are required to be positive towards it, you're not allowed to criticize it at all.

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53 minutes ago, MetroidJunkie said:

But then it becomes an argument of "Is it worth it if it means we don't have the freedom to voice dissenting opinions?". Imagine a Doom Forum where all discussions of Brutal Doom are required to be positive towards it, you're not allowed to criticize it at all.

There's a difference between having dissenting opinion that's critical but remains civil and positive versus being rude and negative and trying to excuse it as "criticism". I think that's what Ajora is trying to convey. Some of the posts in this thread are, in my opinion, just over-excessive when it comes to the cynicism, snark, negativity, and general rudeness. There's a discussion to be had in this topic, sure, but when it's drown out by a game of "how can I out-snark this snarky user" it becomes a chore to read and - I can only speak for myself in this instance - the brain just learns to skim past such posts.

 

I'm sure people are going to disagree with me on this but I think how you convey your message is just as important as the actual content of the message. Someone could have something profound and eye-opening but if it's conveyed with the kind of snark, cynicism, and condescending tone I'm picking up in a lot of these post, I'm pretty sure most people aren't going to bother trying to dissect it to get to that profound and eye-opening stuff. I know I'm not. I'm certainly guilty of being negative and snarky in my own posts but I try to dial it back to zero as much as I can when posting anywhere. Of course, this isn't just something I've seen on Doomworld but on other forums as well. This is more of a general internet community thing I've seen.

 

As far as Brutal Doom winning an award goes, I honestly don't care. Brutal Doom was fun for a few playthroughs for me until I discovered how it utterly broke things in maps and just turbo-fucked the gameplay for me. The novelty quickly wore off. Mark's past (and current) antics also more or less ensure I'm never going to touch the mod again either. Of course, that there - how much is the author and their actions associated with their work and vice versa - is another discussion for another time.

 

If someone wants to play Brutal Doom, that's their prerogative. I'm not gonna brow-beat them for it. All I can do is hope that they look beyond Brutal Doom from time to time and see there are other gameplay mods out there that are worth having in their library, mods like High Noon Drifter, Trailblazer, Doomzone, Necrodoom, Colorful Hell, DoomRLA, Project MSX, and Super Shuffle, just to name some personal favorites of mine I'd recommend to anyone.

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I understand the need for civility but to say you'd rather have an echo chamber in exchange for that civility? It's too great a price to pay.

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I could be wrong and I may be reading into his posts a little too much but I think Ajora was speaking hypothetically when he said what he said. It didn't come across to me as that being something he'd actually want.

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I think ModDB should have a continuous mod of the year for constantly evolving/updating mods and mod of the year for mods at gold stages or new creations from that year, that way mods like BD can still get the number one whilst also the mod of the year can go to newly created and finished mods to prevent 1 old mod released years ago from getting 2017's award.

 

If that makes sense, think of it as "Mod Of The Year" and "Best Running Mod Of The Year".

 

But that's just my opinion.

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5 hours ago, Shanoa said:

Congrats on the win Sergeant.

What a pleasant post. I like you

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7 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

I think ModDB should have a continuous mod of the year for constantly evolving/updating mods and mod of the year for mods at gold stages or new creations from that year, that way mods like BD can still get the number one whilst also the mod of the year can go to newly created and finished mods to prevent 1 old mod released years ago from getting 2017's award.

 

If that makes sense, think of it as "Mod Of The Year" and "Best Running Mod Of The Year".

 

But that's just my opinion.

"Best ongoing mod" just like with video games award where they give an award to the "best ongoing game" that's been released but keep getting updated with new dlcs and such. (Like warframe, GTA online, etc) Something like that?

 

If so, it could work!

 

 

Edited by Shanoa

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17 hours ago, Nems said:

mods like High Noon Drifter, Trailblazer, Project MSX

You mean those gameplay mods with cheesy protagonists and the same overpowered shotguns/revolvers/miniguns that bring little to nothing innovation? Because Terminus could make another "Demonsteele with a facelift" and he would still win a Cacoward. But dont expect IGN articles or TotalBiscuit reviews.

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21 hours ago, MetroidJunkie said:

But then it becomes an argument of "Is it worth it if it means we don't have the freedom to voice dissenting opinions?". Imagine a Doom Forum where all discussions of Brutal Doom are required to be positive towards it, you're not allowed to criticize it at all.

Well , what you need to understand , in our hypocritical society, there is no upper limit for GOOD words but there is a down-limit for BAD words.

 

If you are to address something as OK, fine, GREAT, AWESOME, BEST THING EVER!!!! it will be ok (some may consider you to be an asskisser or a fanboy, but you won't get into trouble).

 

If you will call something stupid, some eyebrows will be raised.

but when you will describe something as SHIT or BEYOND SHIT or utter piece of crap...

now you are looking for trouble.

 

foul language is part of the gesture, its a scale to enhance a message, just like GREAT is better than GOOD.

piece of crap , comes stronger than silly.

 

Once you become a public figure by producing something for the public to use , You should be able to accept everything, that goes for mods and forums alike.

 

Being polite pretty much invites the usage of good words while the bad words are heavily limited and inspected.

Public beating was ALWAYS a thing since the dawn of man, even before the fuck word was used.

 

We are so hypocritical , that telling someone that he is retarded is wrong, but mocking him and saying he is not the sharpest knife in the drawer is fine because there is no 'r' word.

Edited by Illasera

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We totes need to limit good words. They can hurt as much as bad words when they're aimed at something we don't like.

 

You people don't understand how bad we haters have it.

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"Best Ongoing Mod" would be better than "Best Mod of 2017" considering it's been developed for 5+ years. Honestly, we don't need to see it as "Mod of the Year" every year on ModDB because clearly there's bias due to the fanbase on the BD and PB pages which most I think are too afraid to step onto Doomworld and debate/argue with some of us because it's not an echo chamber here.

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5 minutes ago, Glaice said:

"Best Ongoing Mod" would be better than "Best Mod of 2017" considering it's been developed for 5+ years. Honestly, we don't need to see it as "Mod of the Year" every year on ModDB because clearly there's bias due to the fanbase on the BD and PB pages which most I think are too afraid to step onto Doomworld and debate/argue with some of us because it's not an echo chamber here.

So you are pretty much saying that there is more demand because there are more fanboys for this mod because....

there is more demand for this mod (loop).

 

Sounds to me like more bias'd people like this mod and voted for it, so what seems to be the problem?

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I can understand mods that you don't necessarily like (Lilith was apparently controversial for winning a Cacoward) winning an award but awarding one that came out years ago in a "X of the year" does seem pretty sketchy. It shouldn't even qualify based on that factor, alone. Blade of Agony's second episode wasn't considered for a Cacoward because the mod itself wasn't made in 2017 so that should be the standard, a mod that was released in the year that's being judged. Giving it to Brutal Doom would be like giving Minecraft Game of the Year just because it's getting updates.

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18 minutes ago, Glaice said:

It sounds like you registered to defend the mod somehow, Illasera..

But the first few posts i made were vs the mod and the author of it...

 

why people hate it when you bring out facts that they don't like, for example, that a mod won because tons of people voted for it, 

I know its hard to accept, but that's the way it happened, delusions are bad.

 

16 minutes ago, MetroidJunkie said:

I can understand mods that you don't necessarily like (Lilith was apparently controversial for winning a Cacoward) winning an award but awarding one that came out years ago in a "X of the year" does seem pretty sketchy. It shouldn't even qualify based on that factor, alone. Blade of Agony's second episode wasn't considered for a Cacoward because the mod itself wasn't made in 2017 so that should be the standard, a mod that was released in the year that's being judged. Giving it to Brutal Doom would be like giving Minecraft Game of the Year just because it's getting updates.

 

Seems like the problem is with the people who crafted the poll, i suggest taking it up with them, If it did win another award for an update, i am with you on that one, However, a choice was given, and people voted, If you don't like the choices, vote to change them.

Edited by Illasera

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1 hour ago, Illasera said:

why people hate it when you bring out facts that they don't like, for example, that a mod won because tons of people voted for it, 

I know its hard to accept, but that's the way it happened, delusions are bad.

 

Seems like the problem is with the people who crafted the poll, i suggest taking it up with them, If it did win another award for an update, i am with you on that one, However, a choice was given, and people voted, If you don't like the choices, vote to change them.

People have brought their own reasons why they don't like some game mods. This isn't a game about facts, a mod is something people play to enjoy, not some analysis of what makes them good. If it's fun, then usually for that person it's good. If it's not fun, then it's not good to them, this isn't hard to figure out. And no one is denying Brutal Doom's popularity or why it has won, what some people have in mind is on whether it's deserved or some adjustments might be needed (as suggested earlier, best ongoing mod award would be beneficial).

 

And thing is, Brutal Doom has got on the Top 10 Mods in the past few years, but never #1 and even then, if it were like say #4 or #5 it would still have something to provoke. And oh sure the people voted, but in a popular vote, whatever is most popular will win, not necessarily what is the best mod objectively. Subjectively, a lot of people enjoy Brutal Doom, outsiders to Doom included. But keep in mind, Brutal Doom is the mod pretty much many people knows about, simple as that. Making a change is easier said than done, it's going to take various communities for that to happen.

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15 hours ago, Shanoa said:

"Best ongoing mod" just like with video games award where they give an award to the "best ongoing game" that's been released but keep getting updated with new dlcs and such. (Like warframe, GTA online, etc) Something like that?

 

If so, it could work!

 

 

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

 

Infact, I pretty much took the idea from the Game Awards.

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18 hours ago, Nems said:

I'll take stuff that's fun over something that innovates for the sake of being "innovative". Ultimately that's what I look for in my Doom experience, whether it's mods, levels, or levelsets: fun. If it ain't fun, I won't bother with it. I don't care how innovative it is. The mods I mentioned were, for me, fun. Not everything needs to be trying to reinvent the wheel.

I know I tend bring this mod up in random threads but I'll do it again.

 

I think that the embodiment of this is Prodoomer. Maybe I just haven't played that many mods in general but this is the most innovative mod I know. In fact, I'd say it's bordering on TC territory. It adds new monsters, new levels, new weapons, a new hero and a new story. It also adds a level-up system based on experience points gained by killing enemies, a HUB area where you get sent to between levels, currency, A shop where you can spend said currency to buy weapon upgrades and ammo, an in-game bestiary where you can keep track of which monsters you encountered and how many of them you killed, another shop where you can buy power-ups. It also adds achievements, a mana system and magic spells unlocked by leveling up which use said mana system, collectable items which presumably unlock the secret level(s) if you find all of them, special abilities like double jump and wall jump and a (less than realistic) recoil system. And that's just all the things I can think of off the top of my head. But in spite of all this new stuff, this mod is anti-fun. And though you may blame it on level design I think it's because it forgets what makes Doom great in it's quest to pile as many new features as possible.

 

Sorry if this is unrelated.

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2 hours ago, Zulk RS said:

I know I tend bring this mod up in random threads but I'll do it again.

 

I think that the embodiment of this is Prodoomer. Maybe I just haven't played that many mods in general but this is the most innovative mod I know. In fact, I'd say it's bordering on TC territory. It adds new monsters, new levels, new weapons, a new hero and a new story. It also adds a level-up system based on experience points gained by killing enemies, a HUB area where you get sent to between levels, currency, A shop where you can spend said currency to buy weapon upgrades and ammo, an in-game bestiary where you can keep track of which monsters you encountered and how many of them you killed, another shop where you can buy power-ups. It also adds achievements, a mana system and magic spells unlocked by leveling up which use said mana system, collectable items which presumably unlock the secret level(s) if you find all of them, special abilities like double jump and wall jump and a (less than realistic) recoil system. And that's just all the things I can think of off the top of my head. But in spite of all this new stuff, this mod is anti-fun. And though you may blame it on level design I think it's because it forgets what makes Doom great in it's quest to pile as many new features as possible.

 

Sorry if this is unrelated.

Prodoomer is actually THE mod I think of when it comes to mods that are innovative but are not fun to play. The level design in particular is what I remember it being not fun. Platforming in Doom is really a mixed bag and there's so much platforming in Prodoomer, especially over ultra-thin, precarious insta-death pits (Lava Moss and the Rooftop levels in particular can fuck right off). Also in previous versions the recoil made weapons a right pain in the ass to use. I don't mind recoil in weapon/gameplay mods if it's handled well (I feel like the mods I mentioned handled it well) but the recoil in past versions of Prodoomer were super jumpy, even for the pistol(s).

 

What finally killed the mod for me was the "walljump" mechanic once you unlocked it. It was disorienting and confusing for me and the fact that it was needed to progress further just did me in.

 

I swear I think Prodoomer gave me PTSD. I think it gave Mr. Icarus PTSD too if you've seen his videos that cover it.

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I have. If anything, it makes me feel bad for PsychoSilverTH. Except that one map in the stadium (The one where a bomb starts counting down when you beat the boss) I played through all the regular levels with the horrible recoil (V2 to be exact). It makes some of the weapons unusable.  Honestly though, I think more people should play it as it's the perfect example of what stockpiling new ideas in a mod without any regard for how it may effect the core game-play will do to a mod.

 

As for level design, I remember being blown away by how cool the first map looked (at least the starting area) but that's all most of these maps are. They look super cool and super fancy (some fall a bit short but I'm digressing on top of digressing) but they play like they've never been play-tested before. Some of these maps have really cool concepts and ideas. You can see what the creator was going for but he just didn't get there. As much as I hate a decent amount of these maps, Mad Space is the one that almost made me cry. The idea felt really fresh and really good; the visuals were the best things I've seen in a while but the it was all executed so so poorly. The more I played it the more it felt like a creative idea was being murdered in front of me.

 

Playing Prodoomer is an experience I won't be forgetting anytime soon. I really do think more people should play it. Preferably V2 because fixing things in it just cause it from being extraordinarily bad to pretty bad.

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51 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

Playing Prodoomer is an experience I won't be forgetting anytime soon. I really do think more people should play it. Preferably V2 because fixing things in it just cause it from being extraordinarily bad to pretty bad.

 

 

Why not V3?

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Because the way I see it, V3 is bad but better than V2. Since neither versions are fun by any stretch of the word, instead of playing something is just really bad, why not play something that so bad that you won't forget it any time soon. The amount of bullshit that's in V2 is something worth experiencing. V3 gets rid of some of the bullshit so it's just bad and not extraordinarily bad.

 

In short: Just to experience how bad a mod can be in spite of being innovative and having genuine effort and work put into it.

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Interesting. I've never played the mod, but I did watch Icarus's video about it. It sounds like a giant headache. 

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On 1/8/2018 at 11:39 AM, Glaice said:

"Best Ongoing Mod" would be better than "Best Mod of 2017" considering it's been developed for 5+ years. Honestly, we don't need to see it as "Mod of the Year" every year on ModDB because clearly there's bias due to the fanbase on the BD and PB pages which most I think are too afraid to step onto Doomworld and debate/argue with some of us because it's not an echo chamber here.

If a mod won or placed high on the MOTY list, it can't place anymore but it can get an honorable mention.

For instance Stalker: Call of Chernobyl won in 2016 and got an honorable mention in 2017's list

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