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Ajora

Brutal Doom wins mod of the year on Mod DB

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Is that really a substitute for moderation, though? That being called out on the behavior is enough to get away with it? If someone did something worthy of police action, the police aren't going to say "Well, the public is calling him out on it, he's been punished enough". I think there needs to be some real consequence to send a very clear message that this isn't to be tolerated on this forum and, if we get to the point where the moderators are tolerating malware in the form of Doom mods, then where do we go from here? I'm not saying ban him, especially not permanently, but I don't think it's enough just to have people calling him out on it.

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Posted (edited)

The analogy of this place being an independent society that needs its own government and policing and isn't just a communal gathering of people who have a like interest in Doom is an argument that is so far gone from what I'm talking about that it would take me all day to bring you and anyone who empathizes with your position to a place of sanity. The amount of sarcastic shitpost likebait attention whoring that goes on in a thread like this would intercept the message I'm trying to deliver and it's just too out of control for me to even attempt to divert the attention away from all the noise.

 

We can talk about it you're serious about it, but no Sgt Mark is not a criminal, and no one who has any sort of known popularity or status has a moral responsibility to do anything other than what they feel like doing, nor should he have any sort of punitive measures applied to him for doing that.

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I was making a point, people calling you out on the behavior is no substitute for moderators taking action. You seem to have misinterpreted my analogy, I never said Sargent Mark was a criminal but that we shouldn't tolerate malware disguising itself as a Doom mod. Is that the kind of thing you want to allow on this forum?

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Posted (edited)

Yea that sure won't encourage witch hunting and all the dumb things that come with it. Leave modding to moderators, Feel something should get someone banned? Use the report post button.

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I'm just offering my viewpoint on the matter, I'm not encouraging a witch-hunt, just giving people (and hopefully, the staff) something to think about.

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Posted (edited)

I say the Doomworld moderators can do whatever they feel is best in this situation, and what they do reflects on them, and only them, and not on the community as a whole.

 

Just because they let Sgt Mark "get away with it" doesn't mean the community is letting him do that, and I think it's important to recognize that separation. Doomworld staff is not the whole community, and the whole community is not Doomworld staff. In fact, Doomworld staff really are only a small part of it.

 

So let them bear the consequences of acting, if they so choose, or choosing not to act in this case. And there will be consequences either way - fun to be in a position to make tough decisions, isn't it? But that's their problem, not your's.

 

EDIT: To be clear, I was not trying to imply that I would hold the Doomworld staff in moral contempt. What I meant by that was, they'd have to deal with people being upset on one side or the other, depending on who felt "wronged" by it.

Edited by Rachael

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Fair enough, I didn't mean all of Doomworld is responsible for the moderators, just that their decision on handling matters is going to set a precedent on what will or won't be allowed on these forums. You have to take that very seriously because it can easily come back to haunt you if you set the wrong kind of precedent.

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7 minutes ago, Rachael said:

Doomworld staff

1 hour ago, MetroidJunkie said:

we shouldn't tolerate malware disguising itself as a Doom mod. Is that the kind of thing you want to allow on this forum?

The thing is, he never uploaded that Extermination day beta build on Idgames. Not even on Moddb. The Eday betas are only available on Mediafire links posted on his Patreon. In this case they cannot ban anyone because what DW users upload on other sites its not their concern as DW Moderators.

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So he never once promoted this on Doomworld in any shape or form? How did it get onto Doomworld in the first place, then? He spent several posts trying to justify it.

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33 minutes ago, Pegg said:

Use the report post button.


And now MetroidJunkie is faced with a logical problem, because he has no "post with malware" to report.

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More brutal doom drama is going to happen and this same thread will repeat itself. It's an inevitable cycle, it happens every time something new and ridiculous about BD or Sgt. Mark comes up. You're all going to be wondering "But he didn't do anything bad! Why are people saying mean things about him?!" and yet here he is, justifying terrible behavior. Every. Single. Time.

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51 minutes ago, Dav_NW said:

In this case they cannot ban anyone because what DW users upload on other sites its not their concern as DW Moderators.

Of course they can, but it's gonna be much harder to justify it.

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Very well, I retract my statement about Moderators taking action. If he didn't post any links at all to it, then I guess the Moderators can't really do anything about it. Still, Shadelight makes a very good point, Mark seems like he's going to always try to paint himself as being in the right, even if he goes out of his way to do something incredibly scummy, and he'll always be able to rely on his fanbase to defend him on everything just because they like his mod.

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3 hours ago, MetroidJunkie said:

Either way, is it really a good idea to let him get away with this without some kind of real punishment? He essentially released malware designed to crash a program and spike up CPU usage. Kinda sends the message that, because his mod's popular, he can get away with more because I seriously doubt a lesser known person would have gotten away if they created a system where their own mod detects Brutal Doom and does something similar. Terry Trap Wads were banned for less than this. I'm not getting emotional about this, I'm just thinking about the kind of precedent this sets where he gets away with something just because he's Sargent Mark.

OH NO, NOT CRASHING A SOURCEPORT!!!!!!

 

Seriously, if that's a bannable offense, you might as well ban every single mapper here -- we've all created maps that cause crashes or other undesirable behavior when combined with unintended mods or played in the wrong sourceport.

 

I mean, Lilith.pk3 did something similar to force people to play it in the right sourceport, and it just won a Cacoward.  The faux-outrage over this is obviously just more "we don't like Sergeant Mark IV or Brutal Doom" bandwagoning.

 

(Also, Terrywads weren't banned, they were just cordoned off to their own area of the /idgames archive that isn't displayed on the Doomworld frontend).

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24 minutes ago, MetroidJunkie said:

Still, Shadelight makes a very good point, Mark seems like he's going to always try to paint himself as being in the right,

People don't usually chastise themselves.

 

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But admitting you made a mistake is what you should do. If he acknowledged his screw-up and admitted it was petty, I doubt the backlash would have been anywhere near as bad. Instead, he tried to pass it off like it was no big deal.

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30 minutes ago, MetroidJunkie said:

defend him on everything just because they like his mod.

To be more clear, i acknowledge that he chose a very inefficient way of payback, that along with some bad mistakes he made but also i think the positive impact that his works left is too much to be ignored. I have zero interest on blindly defend him, your opinion just differs from mine. Its not about Black vs. White or Good vs. Evil

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, 40oz said:

People don't usually chastise themselves.

 

He only chastised himself after several posts or pages of criticism and finally realizing he made a mistake, though, and yet he's still trying to fight people.

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6 minutes ago, Dav_NW said:

To be more clear, i acknowledge that he chose a very inefficient way of payback, that along with some bad mistakes he made but also i think the positive impact that his works left is too much to be ignored. I have zero interest on blindly defend him, your opinion just differs from mine. Its not about Black vs. White or Good vs. Evil

I wasn't referring to you, specifically. I was referring to those types who never acknowledge fault with him, they'll just tell everyone else to leave him alone because he makes a good mod so it doesn't matter what he does.

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1 minute ago, MetroidJunkie said:

I wasn't referring to you, specifically. I was referring to those types who never acknowledge fault with him, they'll just tell everyone else to leave him alone because he makes a good mod so it doesn't matter what he does.

What about those of us who think he makes a retarded and terrible mod but still think that most of his alleged wrongs are just people looking for something to hate him for?

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I won't deny that there are people who search for reasons to hate on him but I'm not one of them. I actually think Brutal Doom's a pretty good mod, even though it's obviously overhyped to Hell. I was legitimately disappointed when I learned what he did with this. Had he made some harmless prank where the game mocks you for using Project Brutality, I would have been fine with it. The problem is this isn't so harmless, it spikes CPU usage. He claims it's only 50% but that's only assuming that this is all you have running. Someone with a beefier CPU might assume Brutal Doom is no problem with other programs in the background and then find themselves in a world of hurt.

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Posted (edited)

Spiking CPU usage isn't the horrible thing that you're making it out to be; keeping multiple YouTube tabs open for a bit too long will spike you to around 80-90%.  Unless you just have no cooling whatsoever, it's really not a problem.

 

Also, it doesn't matter what you're running in the background if I understand what this script is doing correctly; once you hit 50% CPU usage total, the script is going to stop working.

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10 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

dumb meme

You seriously think modders intentionally make their mods incompatible with Brutal Doom ?

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Posted (edited)

can someone gimme a list of vanilla stuff that gets noticeably changed in a gameplay way by Brutal Doom? for example I know that flaming barrels have a damage radius

 

I wanna make absolutely sure that my megaproject map is totally unplayable in the mod

 

edit: i don't care if this post gives someone the moral high ground in a forum argument

I just don't wanna be associated with this type of content to any extent

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Posted (edited)

@Cynical

 

You're making the assumption that everyone's situation is the same, what if it brings someone's machine to the breaking point and it crashes? What if they were doing something important in the background? You can claim these are rare situations and that it isn't reasonable to assume they'll happen but maybe you shouldn't go out of your way to potentially force it just because you want to get some payback at the devs of Project Brutality. Insta-kill the player, make the enemies immortal, make Doom Guy's head laugh at you, you don't have to do something that legit can cause software/hardware issues with someone's computer.

 

I already conceded that maybe Mark shouldn't face punishment on this forum since he didn't break any of its rules but you can't seriously tell me that this is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

You seriously think modders intentionally make their mods incompatible with Brutal Doom ?

But PB wasn't compatible with e-day either, acording to Mark

 

@MetroidJunkie 

The script hardly crashes your mashine. Shoot with the PB2.3 nadelauncher's altfire into water and the CPu can't keep up with all the particles. The game freezes, your PC doesn't. Tab out and close the game or kill the procces, it doesn't harm your PC. 

Edited by Lampenpam

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Posted (edited)

Again, 50% CPU usage isn't going to kill anyone's system unless it was already so unstable that watching a video on YouTube was going to kill it.  And, if what people are saying as to how GZDoom behaves is accurate, it doesn't matter what you have running in the background; once your CPU gets busy enough, the script stops, period.

 

EDIT: Actually, GZDoom uses that much CPU anyways if you have Vsync off according to other posts in this thread, so this script isn't even what's spiking CPU usage.  The CPU usage was going to happen anyways.

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