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Gaia74

what you think about the bosses?

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i read some post and some people believe what in doom is not possible create good bosses

 

What do you think?

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Are we talking about custom bosses or monsters used as bosses in the iwads? 

 

If the first one, I've seen a few really good custom bosses that worked very well, whether for their climatic purpose or threat-wise, but it all depends on multiple factors. See the Diabolist in Valiant, by itself it shouldn't be much of a trouble, so companion in the form of other monsters, plus turrets and an environment with many advantages and disadvantages for the player, make a fair intense boss map imo. The thing is, there aren't so many innovate options nowadays that more experienced players cannot exploit with "ease", when it comes to single custom monsters on their own. That's why the cyberdemon and spiderdemon become high-tiers, once you fight them regularly, and depend a lot on external factors to pose a bossy threat by themselves. I believe any enemy starting from mid to high-tier can be used in a boss way, like a mancubus in a first map, if it's just cinematic, or an archvile too. 

 

I think in ZDoom or GZDoom format you can create unique bosses, the other day I saw one in Joy of Mapping 5, it was a battle arena with teleporting monsters and one big cube you have to shoot every X seconds, an interesting idea outside the regular vanilla boss maps. You can also create a "boss" map and use as many enemies you want in the most threatening way possible and a sort of climatic ending, without regarding to an Icon of Sin. Oh yes, this thing is also hard to use and create an interesting final map, I can remember D2INO's map 30 which was one of my most acceptable experiences in terms of IoS maps, you have to speed up and block the spots where monsters spawn in, and then fight a bunch of archviles and other monsters before you can destroy Romero's head, so acceptable.

 

So, you can do a boss map with just one of the regular biggest enemies, or something like E1M8, it depends on your intentions on how you want your maps or mapsets, or create a custom boss or whatever, it's up to you.  

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You can do some interesting bosses in doom, but regardless of format, there's always going to be limitations of some form. I've seen quite a few interesting bosses in doom, but also some rather uninteresting ones that didn't really do anything particularly interesting.

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Doom is a rare shooter where you get the opportunity to fight many hundreds of monsters at once. There just isn't enough fun and chaos to channel through a single or few giant boss targets. Dealing with different arrangements and presentations of monsters just has such a larger range of opportunity for fun and complexity. Unfortunately that doesn't really leave much leeway to innovate with when it comes to delivering a sense of finality to a set of maps. But as a diehard space marine that's a charge im willing to eat as consolation for a game that does just about everything else right.

 

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Given how the player will encounter every single monster in Doom 2's bestiary time and time again, WAD after WAD, it becomes difficult to think of any of them as a boss monster. Doom is definitely more suited to pace changes, buildups, climaxes, dramatic changes between levels, and things of that nature.

 

The best analogy to a boss fight I can conceive of right now would be to introduce a silent arena to the player after a few suspenseful levels and have them figure out some puzzle for a few minutes before triggering a fight with a cybie and a pack of monsters in some compromising position. It has a lot of elements of a boss fight, but it really just feels like a cyberdemon fight.

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3 hours ago, galileo31dos01 said:

it was a battle arena with teleporting monsters and one big cube you have to shoot every X seconds, an interesting idea outside the regular vanilla boss maps.

 

Haha, that was my boss! I'm a big fan of boss fights in general and I definitely think that the perfect one could be created in Doom yet. Ultimate Simplicity, Rise of the Wool Ball, Valiant (as previously mentioned)...I don't know if you could call them perfect, but they certainly try their best when it comes to their bosses.

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4 hours ago, GuyMcBrofist said:

Given how the player will encounter every single monster in Doom 2's bestiary time and time again, WAD after WAD, it becomes difficult to think of any of them as a boss monster.

That's only true if we're defining bosses as a "robot master battle sequence" a la megaman. All the monsters are faced in realtime for the most part rather than in isolated confrontations, thanks largely to Doom's somewhat nonlinear gameplay (i.e. I don't usually have to stay in the Baron's room and fight him when he shows up, I can run away).

 

Doom does have its bosses and minibosses as far as status goes, usually depending how they're used and what all is present on the map. Objectively Mancs, Arachnotrons, and to an extent Barons are miniboss monsters who take a lot of damage and dish out a lot of pain, and are usually found herding the lesser mooks in droves or acting as support units in key areas, but not generally fought as the main infantry: one or two pop up now and then as a major obstacle that is tricky but not usually too horrendous to overcome. The big bad boss monsters are the Mastermind, Cyberdemon, and Baphomet, because of their rarity and power level. When you hear them roar, you know you're in trouble. The Archvile has the unique flexibility to be either-or depending how it's used.

 

Decorate is where we get custom "choreographed" bosses that can be more like the Mega Man style of boss encounter, which I'm not usually keen on anyway. I like having a boss dropped in my lap without really disrupting the flow of the level, like Earthworm Jim. I know, I'm using weird gameplay style comparisons. Hopefully you get what I mean. Doom is more about how to finesse your way out of a chaotic situation, not memorizing patterns. With that sort of seemingly unstructured gameplay style, the boss monsters work pretty well, as long as you don't try to force them to be robot masters.

 

Fuck, I'm tired, and I have no idea if I'm making any sense. Just ignore me.

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is true, is hard now make original bosses, look, my mod no have interesting bosses

 

but only one can content your pleading

 

I Have a monster Called Kaiser Elite Guard And is very hard , is inspired in undertale

 

he have one year of work and can gime me your opinion

 

here is the archive with the monster

http://www.mediafire.com/file/lxffvi23rxgcimp/Hectic+V3.5.wad

 

his name is kaisereliteguard, and i recommend use the map 32 of doom 2

 

now you prefer bosses with interesting decorate or boseses with tons of acs like yurei final battle in ghouls vs humans?

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I dunno. I've played a lot of maps, and I have several that stick out in my mind for use of vanilla "bosses". Dickie10 for one, because that cybie just pops up out of the ground without any warning at all. If you aren't expecting it, you won't think to run back to that teleporter pad, because you'll be too busy running for the BFG. In retrospect, I find that it was actually a really great way to do a boss fight, even if at the time I played it I was not amused by a cybie popping up in my face. >.< As far as custom boss fights, I found that Shadows of the Nightmare Realm was enjoyable due to use of a quad-IoS barrier system before dealing with the real boss. And the boss, while very projectile-based, was well balanced as far as attacks. I think use of space and how you work up to that fight (or plop it onto a player without warning) is key. Cybies can still be scary in the right context. 

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The common sentiment is that Doom isn't suited well to bosses that are inherently interesting on their lonesome. These are bosses that would be fun in empty, featureless, spacious areas, as would be possible in many games with more advanced AI (or with DECORATE). 


The problem is that most of the stock attacks aren't particularly good at this. Projectiles from a single source can be avoided easily if the player has enough space, even when they are spammed. Outside of a complementary role, hitscans work best when they are multidirectional threats from lower-HP sources, rather than unidirectional threats from a single high-HP source. The latter are either too easy (with any cover) or unfair (with no cover at all), which incidentally is one of a few reasons the mastermind doesn't work. The pain elemental's spam attack won't fit most monsters, conceptually. That leaves some of the quirker attacks: (the boss flying at you like a giant lost soul and the demon's bite. The best of the rest is the vile attack, which can work well in many types of environments. Combine it with other projectiles (well, the revenant missile, mostly, ideally spammed) and you have a boss that can be interesting one on one in a spacious area. That isn't much though.


Bosses are a lot like any other monster: the environment needs to work in their favor, they need to be complemented well by other monsters. Just like a cyb in a big area isn't much of a threat, a monster spamming mancubus projectiles, rev missiles, and noble fireballs won't do much on its own, and will be tedious to fight if it has lots of HP. 

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@rdwpa has some good points, and I'd like to add few.

First, and foremost, the boss' ability to last, that is, how long the boss lives, but not only that, the boss' ability to damage player in this timeframe should also be considered. Bosses that die quickly should use harder to dodge and/or high damaging attacks. You get little chance to mess up, but it doesn't drag on for too long to be frustrating (Spider Mastermind was supposed to be one of these). Bosses that last long are memorable setpieces, their attacks should either be easier to dodge, or less punishing to be hit by, as losing progress is aggravating (Cybie belongs to this category). 

 

Secondly I want to talk about projectiles, and it's true that Vanilla projectiles aren't much to speak off, however even some variation and randomness helps to catch veteran players off guard. So pretty much partial invisibility, though the first boss in quake shows the ability to predict your position, and aim appropriately.

 

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