What's up with Doom 2 maps?

[Cacodemon345]

2 hours ago, Dreamskull said:

The maps in Doom 2 are harder to play through and people die more often in them. That aspect alone heavily affects how the maps are remembered in hindsight. The game design and layout in Doom 2 is better than the original Doom, but the experience playing through those maps are not. There is "less to see" because people aren't focused in on what the individual maps are like. Mere survival is more important. The original Doom is child's play, even on Nightmare difficulty. I'll give the original Doom fair due though; its soundtrack trumps Doom 2 hands down.

I partially agree with you. Doom 2's maps are hard. But the design and layout of earth levels are not better in any way than original Doom. It is worse for me. The visuals aren't on par with Original Doom. I especially hate The Factory, it is not a real factory, but instead nothing more than some sort of generic building. You also need to have focus on your health, armor and ammo.

If I remember, some of the soundtracks in Doom 2 are better than in Doom 1, but the Sandy's City soundtrack and the Suburbs soundtrack isn't that good. The empty larger areas in Doom 2 are empty and uninteresting, whereas the areas in Doom 1 wasn't empty and actually consisted of monsters and items.

I also hate Downtown which isn't an actual town and has far more empty spaces.

The Plutonia Experiment and TNT : Evilution has more usage of the larger spaces, so exploring through them is interesting.

[chungy]

3 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

You also need to have focus on your health, armor and ammo.

Shouldn't that always be the case?

[Poncho]

5 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

I partially agree with you. Doom 2's maps are hard. But the design and layout of earth levels are not better in any way than original Doom. It is worse for me. The visuals aren't on par with Original Doom. I especially hate The Factory, it is not a real factory, but instead nothing more than some sort of generic building. You also need to have focus on your health, armor and ammo.

If I remember, some of the soundtracks in Doom 2 are better than in Doom 1, but the Sandy's City soundtrack and the Suburbs soundtrack isn't that good. The empty larger areas in Doom 2 are empty and uninteresting, whereas the areas in Doom 1 wasn't empty and actually consisted of monsters and items.

I also hate Downtown which isn't an actual town and has far more empty spaces.

The Plutonia Experiment and TNT : Evilution has more usage of the larger spaces, so exploring through them is interesting.

Lad, Ultimate Doom had a LOAD of empty spaces, not just from Petersen either. Romero's maps had a lot of empty spaces (the outside area in E1M1, the Supercharge secret area in E1M2, a couple of the areas in E1M6 and the Shotgunner hell area in E1M7, just to name a few). Does that make them bad? Of course not.

 

You were praising TNT earlier, if I recall, which I personally find a little ironic since that game is nothing BUT empty spaces (just look at Map08, Map31 [to some extent], Map32 (again, to some extent], Map18, Map20, Map21 and Map27). TNT doesn't even look good, either. They were going for a realistic theme, but failed horribly (look at levels like Map02, Map04, Map08 [again!], Map16, Map19, Map20 and 21 [both awful], Map22 - 27 and Map30 as examples of dreadful map design).

[pulkmees]

Hmm, I actually don't mind The Factory being that abstract. I like the atmosphere in that level, although the ending is a grind. Downtown and Suburbs are bigger offenders to me. I especially hate the ending of Suburbs being some boxes, no way of knowing anything important is there.

Edited January 27, 2018 by pulkmees

[MegaZzZeux]

48 minutes ago, pulkmees said:

Hmm, I actually don't mind The Factory being that abstract. I like the atmosphere in that level, although the ending is a grind. Downtown and Suburbs are bigger offenders to be. I especially hate the ending of Suburbs being some boxes, no way of knowing anything important is there.

 

All good answers. Downtown is the best of the mentioned maps IMO.

[Cacodemon345]

7 hours ago, chungy said:

Shouldn't that always be the case?

You need to have focus on your health, armor and ammo more in Doom 2 whereas Doom 1 it is less.

[Erick]

2 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

You need to have focus on your health, armor and ammo more in Doom 2 whereas Doom 1 it is less.

Wouldn't that just mean Doom 2 is better than Doom 1 as far as the gameplay goes, since that is pretty much an improvement in fun and challenging gameplay. And if anything, focusing on health and ammo should be expected since that is what you'll be doing as you play.

[CARRiON]

I think both games' original levels are pretty damn consistently ugly nowadays. I've also played them so much now at this point in my life that the thought of playing through them again makes me feel queasy. I think D64's levels are alright but I fucking HATE most of the art. ESPECIALLY the monsters. If I had to play anything original, I'd probably just pick E1 or E4 of UltDOOM. Otherwise I'd much rather play new community stuff pretty much exclusively.

 

DOOM 2's city levels not looking great went unnoticed in 1994 because people were just happy to be playing a bigger and badder DOOM game, and I think id knew most people wouldn't really care at the time, as long as it played like DOOM but better it would sell and be just as adored. Though that's not to say a convincing looking city level in first person wasn't possible in 1994. Quarantine had great looking cities packed full of detail. Ross Scott even mentions this in his Game Dungeon episode for the game. And a mere few years later people would start getting more grounded and realistic looking levels with city themes as Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior, Blood, Redneck Rampage, TekWar, SiN, Blood 2, Soldier of Fortune, etc. all exploded onto the computer gaming scene and became the hot thing for level designers (wow! it looks so real!). So in a way DOOM 2 was still a baby step towards all of that.

[Cacodemon345]

1 hour ago, CARRiON said:

If I had to play anything original, I'd probably just pick E1 or E4 of UltDOOM. Otherwise I'd much rather play new community stuff pretty much exclusively.

I would only play through E1 and E4 and from Entryway into Circle Of Death as well as Final Doom.

 

I actually love Doom 64 as it has typically better looking maps and secrets. It has some realistic work done into it. But I hate Doom 1's E2 and E3 and Doom 2's MAP12 through MAP29. Just literally f*** them.

The biggest offender for me is the large empty spaces in Doom 2 than in Doom 1. Especially Downtown and Suburbs where things are done really wrong.

[GarrettChan]

12 hours ago, Poncho said:

You were praising TNT earlier, if I recall, which I personally find a little ironic since that game is nothing BUT empty spaces (just look at Map08, Map31 [to some extent], Map32 (again, to some extent], Map18, Map20, Map21 and Map27). TNT doesn't even look good, either. They were going for a realistic theme, but failed horribly (look at levels like Map02, Map04, Map08 [again!], Map16, Map19, Map20 and 21 [both awful], Map22 - 27 and Map30 as examples of dreadful map design).

I doubted someone had actually played these maps... TNT Map20 is my favorite in TNT, but I can't deny your point though.

[Cacodemon345]

TNT Map20 to Map30 was supposed to be hellish maps.

[Poncho]

Just now, Cacodemon345 said:

TNT Map20 to Map30 was supposed to be hellish maps.

Just happened to be here when this popped up. :P

 

It's actually Map21 to Map30 that are the Hell levels, but they're all so damn redundant. Map21 is the worst of the game, since it's big open spaces with a COUPLE of enemies (the author Drake O'Brien is famous for this), Map22 is by far the ugliest level ever officially released, Maps 23 - 26 recycle the same goddamned theme (fucking hell, at least Doom 2's levels spiced things up a bit with chasms, mineshafts, barrel madness and caverns that LOOKED good, which don't here since in TNT they're so cramped and awfully fragmented). Map27 is open empty space again and way too hard for its own good.

 

Map28 is admittedly fantastic (a caverns map done WELL). Map29 is okay, but has bullshit moments, and the less we say about Map30, the better.

[Novaseer]

I haven't played TNT, so I have nothing to say about it.

But what I can say is: in DOOM 2's MAP21, that Pain Elemental room needs to burn in Hell.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

On 1/27/2018 at 1:14 PM, Cacodemon345 said:

I would only play through E1 and E4 and from Entryway into Circle Of Death as well as Final Doom.

 

You know the e4 incineration of Doom 2 is always hilarious. It was released after Doom2, you are saying you only play a third of Doom 1 (not ultimate doom) which is less than half Doom 2 (9 vs 15 maps).

 

Suburbs and down town aren't even that big, Doomguy runs through those "huge" areas in less than 5 seconds. Citadel is what I'd call terrible because it both looks and plays like shit, Nothing remotely interesting about the fights in it and some very fucked up puzzles (that red key area is 10\10 if you jump down the pillar before hitting the switch and think you hit a dead end) that make you think you broke any chance to progress in the map.

[Cacodemon345]

Fuck The Pit, The Factory, Downtown, Suburbs and The Citadel. Their design is really horrible and uninteresting, making them fucked up maps. Worst maps ever in any Doom IWAD I have ever played.

[Guest DILDOMASTER666]

8 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Fuck The Pit, The Factory, Downtown, Suburbs and The Citadel. Their design is really horrible and uninteresting, making them fucked up maps. Worst maps ever in any Doom IWAD I have ever played.

So what you're saying is, E2M9 is a better map than The Pit

[Poncho]

3 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Fuck The Pit, The Factory, Downtown, Suburbs and The Citadel. Their design is really horrible and uninteresting, making them fucked up maps. Worst maps ever in any Doom IWAD I have ever played.

That's five levels in a thirty-two map set. Judging an ENTIRE game on those five is like judging John McTiernan's entire career on Rollerball. And what's uninteresting about Doomguy's own house, and a goddamned castle!? You should watch AltimaMantoid's LP on Doom 2. Sure, he dislikes several levels in it, but he at least gives good reasons other than "they don't look interesting". The Citadel is VERY engaging.

 

And you're telling me that shite levels like Mount Pain, Administration Center and Habitat are above those? Really? Oh yeah, and how exactly is The Spirit World bad (you said that Maps 12 - 29 were utter tosh in a previous comment, if I recall).

 

This is just my opinion, but you're VERY biased on Petersen. Even when he makes a level with very competent design (Map10, Map21, Map23, Map24, Map27, Map28 and the secret maps), you don't mention it.

 

ALSO also, Episode 4 was made AFTER Doom 2.

 

I've said enough, I think. I (probably) won't post here again.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Poncho

[SaladBadger]

Do you seriously have to repeatedly repeat yourself about your sheer hatred of maps like The Pit, Downtown, etc, Cacodemon345? I swear half your posts in this thread include a slightly different reworded rant about all those maps.

[Cacodemon345]

Different people have different tolerance for Doom 2 maps.

9 hours ago, Poncho said:

Even when he makes a level with very competent design (Map10, Map21, Map23, Map24, Map27, Map28 and the secret maps), you don't mention it.

The secret maps are simply exempt from this thread. They are based on Wolf3D maps and therefore have good looking and interesting gameplay.

I personally agree with Pegg on how The Citadel looks and plays like shit. The Pit contains flow-breaking designs, meaning you have to go around the three-door area to get the yellow key. Downtown doesn't have that good industrial feeling.

9 hours ago, Poncho said:

Oh yeah, and how exactly is The Spirit World bad (you said that Maps 12 - 29 were utter tosh in a previous comment, if I recall).

The Living End isn't what I would call a bad map. It resembles hellish structure, that's it.

Enough is enough, I think posting here is nothing more than just a waste of time and useless.

[Guest DILDOMASTER666]

Quote

I think posting here is nothing more than just a waste of time and useless.

I think you're just saying that because you can't come up with a good reason E2M9 is better than The Pit, but what the hell do I know

[Cacodemon345]

Last post here on this thread, E2M9 has real hellish look and has interesting gameplay.

 

Different people have opinions differing from others. A people may find Sandy Petersen's maps good, while others may find them bad.

[Erick]

2 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Last post here on this thread, E2M9 has real hellish look and has interesting gameplay.

 

Different people have opinions differing from others. A people may find Sandy Petersen's maps good, while others may find them bad.

The map that follows up E2M9 is E2M6: Halls of the Damned, which is a map that offers a lot more than three basic rooms and shows the theme of The Shores of Hell pretty well. The map was also made by Sandy. I don't see what you're getting at here since Sandy has his ups and downs with his Doom maps.

[Diamhea]

E2M6 is one of my favourites, great atmosphere in spots, especially when the pinkies are let loose through the grey corridors.

 

And DAMN, lots of new posters lately. 

[ella guro]

Doom 2's maps are all-over the place in terms of quality and often super janky and even kinda lazy. American McGee's early maps introduce an atmosphere and thematic consistently that never really goes anywhere afterwards. too much work fell on Sandy that he didn't really have the quality control to be able to carry, in spite of being an interesting designer. Romero's maps are mostly really good but too mixed up in other stuff to turn around the direction of the set. it's a unwieldy, too-long mess with flashes of brilliance, unlike the strong sense of place you get from most of Doom 1, esp the first two episodes. i've learned to love Doom 2 because of all its ideas, but it is not a cohesive work at all.

Edited January 30, 2018 by ella guro