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LiquidDoom

What's up with Doom 2 maps?

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3 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

People who are playing both Doom 2016 and Classic Dooms will be more concerned about visuals than gameplay, because of the ultra-modern graphics in Doom 2016.

Sorry, simply not true.

 

Also, this statement just doesn't work. If someone cares visuals that much, why would he/she play Classic Doom instead of playing modern games?

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8 hours ago, 94's the best style said:

I'd rather have Tom Hall / Sandy Megawad than either of those two.

You know what's coming, don't you?

 

Yes, I'll take the Romero/McGee megawad behind Door Number Two! I'm reppin' for the Representational fans. ;)

 

I've never made any secret about being Romero's Bitch. Not only is Knee Deep my all-time fave, but his Doom 2 maps were on-point, whether it's 'O' of Destruction, Industrial Zone, Gotcha!, The Abandoned Mines or -- drum roll, please -- The Living End, quite possibly the best IWAD map ever. I'd say Romero came up with plenty of cool gameplay ideas, and I personally find Industrial Zone to be a really nasty map, mainly owing to its ammo starvation, admittedly not my favorite approach to making maps hard. But of all the id mappers, Romero is the only one you could count on to unleash maps that looked great and played great.

 

As for McGee, given that I bought Doom 2 back in 1995, months before I purchased The Ultimate Doom, McGee's clean, bullet-ridden starbases were a primary intro to the Doom universe, an intro I liked a lot. I enjoy the hell out of all his E1 maps, with The Focus being a particular favorite, while The Gantlet slaughtered me so bad that I downloaded Knee Deep to use as boot camp before I could actually beat that sucker. Some of his later maps may have been a tad less inspired, though.

 

As for Sandy, I've kicked him around plenty in the past for his peculiar texture choices, but his maps play well and have some inspired ideas, for example Barrels o' Fun. And I honestly think The Spirit World is really cool, while Tricks and Traps is an absolute masterpiece. I think Sandy's quirkiness added a lot to the overall experience, injecting some fun humor. The obvious example is Slough of Despair, which seems to trigger some people, but I think it's hilarious. Beyond that, Sandy deserves all props for shouldering the burden of actually making Doom maps happen so the game could be released. Essel mentioned that earlier. It was a staggering achievement.

 

I haven't played Doom 2 in a long time. Might need to give some of the maps a go. One thing for sure, as others have noted, is that Doom 2 had better encounter design. The new monsters -- Revvie, Arach, Chaingunner, Manc, Archie -- all specialized in area denial, making Doom 2 in some ways an A2/AD game. The Pain Elemental, obviously, specializes at being annoying in a, "You better kill it right now" kinda way. The new monsters also hit very hard, especially Archie, another "kill it right now" monster, so they increased the likelihood of sudden death.

 

Modern ports allow some degree of mitigation for the limited Doom 1 bestiary by simply using a shit-ton of them. If 10 Cacos sufficed for a battle in '94, you can use 100 now, and throw in 50 Lost Souls as a bonus, with a couple battalions of Imps and Pinkies to provide ground pressure. It works.

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1 hour ago, Steve D said:

The Pain Elemental, obviously, specializes at being annoying in a, "You better kill it right now" kinda way. 

The timer aspect of the PE is overstated; its real magic is its ability to act as a super-revenant, with only the "projectile's" initial charge originating from the PE's location, and future attacks coming from semi-random directions, breaking up circle strafe patterns without requiring cover.

 

Truly, the king of all enemies.

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On 1/22/2018 at 5:35 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

Have you considered that it's actually good to talk about things one does not fully understand, because one might learn a thing or two?

So I guess you've learned quite a few things or two on Doomworld.

 

Spoiler

<3

 

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10 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

Sorry, simply not true.

 

Also, this statement just doesn't work. If someone cares visuals that much, why would he/she play Classic Doom instead of playing modern games?

One who loves Doom 1's techbase theme and the space station in Doom 2016 will care about visuals.

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6 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

One who loves Doom 1's techbase theme and the space station in Doom 2016 will care about visuals.

Caring about visuals much more than gameplay is NOT a way to judge a game AT ALL.

 

Let's put this into perspective: I'll just go out of my way and make the most beautiful map in the world: fantastic architecture, beautiful environments and amazing attention to detail.

Now, let me just add one hundred Cyberdemons, two hundred Arch-Viles and a thousand Revenants, and give you just the single Shotgun, the Chaingun and a Rocket Launcher with some ammo.

 

By your logic, the level would be the greatest thing on Earth, in spite of its infuriating gameplay.

 

Let's take it a step further and use a film example: I'm having an audition, and I cast the actor who looks more handsome - not because of his acting skills, but because he's a better looker than a more experienced, determined person.

 

You're completely entitled to your opinion, but in MY opinion, your arguments are just very weak.

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4 minutes ago, Poncho said:

Let's put this into perspective: I'll just go out of my way and make the most beautiful map in the world: fantastic architecture, beautiful environments and amazing attention to detail.

Now, let me just add one hundred Cyberdemons, two hundred Arch-Viles and a thousand Revenants, and give you just the single Shotgun, the Chaingun and a Rocket Launcher with some ammo.

Did you even play The Plutonia Experiment in Nightmare difficulty? It seems like you are only playing Doom 1 and 2 in lower difficulty.

The Plutonia Experiment seriously looks better than Doom 2.

 

4 hours ago, Xyzzy01 said:

Perhaps the numerous "Doom 1 vs. Doom 2" threads made throughout the years are confirmation enough that really neither game is better than the other?

I believe that Doom 2 is worse than Doom 1. But Doom 1's maps in E1 and E2 are shitty too. So both are at the end worse.

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Just now, Cacodemon345 said:

Did you even play The Plutonia Experiment in Nightmare difficulty? It seems like you are only playing Doom 1 and 2 in lower difficulty.

The Plutonia Experiment seriously looks better than Doom 2.

 

I believe that Doom 2 is worse than Doom 1. But Doom 1's maps in E1 and E2 are shitty too. So both are at the end worse.

I have indeed played Plutonia on Ultra-Violence many, many times. It's my tied favourite game (along with Doom 2, as it turns out).

Also, Plutonia came out much later, when it was possible to make more aesthetically-pleasing maps (they ARE better looking that Doom 2).

 

But why a person would REGULARLY play a Doom WAD on Nightmare just seems a bit daft. I've played all the IWADs on Nightmare, and I can indeed complete a fair amount of them (well, except for TNT, because it sucks). But it was NEVER the INTENDED difficulty setting (Romero himself confirmed this).

 

If you like, I'll do a little rundown of why Petersen's maps are good (Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 included).

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On 1/22/2018 at 10:24 AM, bonnie said:

One of the design philosophies behind Episode 3 was the idea that Hell is Hell. It isn't supposed to make sense. The layouts are bizzare because that's what makes sense for Hell. Episode 3 is a good example of what experimenting should look like, but Doom 2 seemed to take the worst aspects of its design and experimentation and tried to run with it for the entire game.

You should realize Hell has some of the greatest architects in it. The people who build some of the modern and ancient wonders of the world.

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20 minutes ago, Poncho said:

I have indeed played Plutonia on Ultra-Violence many, many times. It's my tied favourite game (along with Doom 2, as it turns out).

Also, Plutonia came out much later, when it was possible to make more aesthetically-pleasing maps (they ARE better looking that Doom 2).

 

But why a person would REGULARLY play a Doom WAD on Nightmare just seems a bit daft. I've played all the IWADs on Nightmare, and I can indeed complete a fair amount of them (well, except for TNT, because it sucks). But it was NEVER the INTENDED difficulty setting (Romero himself confirmed this).

 

If you like, I'll do a little rundown of why Petersen's maps are good (Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 included).

Nightmare difficulty setting is for hardcore Doomers who love to regularly play Doom IWADs in Nightmare. If Doom 1 and 2 was never EVEN INTENDED to be ever PLAYED in Nightmare difficulty setting, then why the Nightmare difficulty setting was even added as a speedrunning challenge?

 

You can do a little rundown of why Petersen's maps are good, but I will also do a little rundown of why Romero and McGee's maps are good (UD and Doom 2 included).

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11 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Nightmare difficulty setting is for hardcore Doomers who love to regularly play Doom IWADs in Nightmare. If Doom 1 and 2 was never EVEN INTENDED to be ever PLAYED in Nightmare difficulty setting, then why the Nightmare difficulty setting was even added as a speedrunning challenge?

Nightmare was literally added as a joke, because some people said that it was too easy on ultra-violence (the original highest difficulty level), probably after playing only E1.

 

John Romero himself even said that beating the game in Nightmare was "probably impossible" -- a statement that has been proven wrong ;)

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41 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Nightmare difficulty setting is for hardcore Doomers who love to regularly play Doom IWADs in Nightmare. If Doom 1 and 2 was never EVEN INTENDED to be ever PLAYED in Nightmare difficulty setting, then why the Nightmare difficulty setting was even added as a speedrunning challenge?

 

You can do a little rundown of why Petersen's maps are good, but I will also do a little rundown of why Romero and McGee's maps are good (UD and Doom 2 included).

Okay, then. Just to mention: I don't dislike Romero or McGee. Where did you get that idea from? The two of them are fantastic!

 

Also, that's what Nightmare really is: a speedrunning challenge. You just answered your own question.

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Alright, here's the rundown.

 

(Keep in note, that some of Petersen's levels were based off of original designs from Tom Hall, and I'll be sure to mention them. Even so, Petersen did indeed submit the final versions. Petersen has also admitted in several interviews that some (KEYWORD: "some") of his maps don't necessarily have themes, but rather build on suspense and gameplay. This second point is important).

 

(Another note: THIS IS REALLY LONG!!!)

 

E1M8: Phobos Anomaly (w/ Hall)

This is the only map from Episode 1 not made by Romero at all. And goddamn, is it suspenseful. It's got a funny beginning, with Demons blocked by barrels. The music and build-up are all perfectly executed, giving the sense of impending danger. While the Baron boss fight is easy, there are at least some Spectres to make the challenge that bit more threatening. Those small things, you know? The large field around the star once the two Barons are dead gives the idea of how large the moon is, and how alone Doomguy is on his adventure. Gotta love that surprise ending, too!

 

E2M1: Deimos Anomaly (w/ Hall)

A much more different introduction level than Hangar, which was a fast-paced intro. This one relies on strategy, and while we all know Doom as an action game, it's always nice to see a level that goes for a different gameplay approach, and especially great when it's done right. The Deimos environment is drastically different to that of Phobos, which freshens up the look, and the blood pits are a really nice touch. Ammo's a bit on the tight side, but that's the whole point. Cacodemons and Plasma Rifles are introduced here, so that's nice.

 

E2M2: Containment Area (w/ Hall)

The one everyone hates... that I like. Of course, in this day-and-age, the box crate maze has been done to death, but the original will always be remembered for its fitting music, great non-linear layout and gruelling suspense. This is a shores map, so it makes sense for Hellish-looking things to appear (in the story, Deimos is much more infested with hellspawn that Phobos). The Berserk really shines here: a great introductory level to a great power-up.

 

E2M3: Refinery (w/ Hall)

If I'm honest, I'm not too fond of this map. It's not BAD, but it's lacklustre (I spelt that right, BTW). The vine-y design is quite neat, and the non-boss Baron is given a nice intro, but... I don't know, something about this is not great. I guess using the Plasma Rifle more would make it more fun... ?

 

E2M4: Deimos Lab (w/ Hall)

Goddamn, ANOTHER suspenseful level! It also doesn't look too shabby, either. The monster placement is exact, the traps are surprising, yet survivable, and really makes you nervous are you go deeper and deeper into the area... Secrets are quite nicely placed, except for that Demon-Spectre infested room near the start, where you have to cross a linedef in the nukage to open it. Pretty stupid, honestly. I also love the ending, with its rising bridges. Again, the small details are nice.

 

E2M5: Command Center

Not made by Hall! This is a purely Petersen map, and its theme is fairly consistent. The vine-y and bloody passages are all interesting to look at, as are the marble buildings. I especially love the room with the pedestral holding a beating heart, which evokes narrative. The way to the secret exit is awesome: running through a firewall, killing some Lost Souls and exiting to another great map. This is a more trap-heavy level, which isn't bad at all.

 

E2M9: Fortress of Mystery

A gimmick map in every sense of the word. A lot of people hate this level, but I think it's really interesting. I think we can all agree that Petersen is a better secret-map maker than Romero is (as a sidenote E1M9 is good, but nothing truly special). Getting to see four Barons tear the shit out of 10 Cacodemons never gets old, considering the fact that a Baron (or, in a case I've seen a couple of times) or two can get killed, always adds to the replayability.

 

E2M6: Halls of the Damned

A secret complex into of a mountain range... The base part makes sense, but some are confused about the wooden area. Again, what you've got to remember, is that this is a shores level: Hell's forces are creating a sort of hive of their own. Anyway, the name of the game here is traps. The best trap of Episode 2 is that sneaky false exit. Not terribly difficult, but is can throw you off pretty good. Great job by Petersen for that.

 

E2M7: Spawning Vats (w/ Hall)

Some trivia: this was originally going to be E1M1. Anyway, this is my third favourite level of the original Ultimate Doom. It compiles the different sorts of levels from the previous maps of the episode (a crate area, a computer complex and a hellish hive) and does it to great effect. It also first introduces the Invulnerability, which is a bit tough to get, but there are only Demons, so it makes for a good introduction to the power-up. The gameplay is fact-paced as anything, and it's just fun as hell blasting demons away with the Plasma Rifle. It's a bit non-linear as well, which makes route-making fun.

 

E2M8: Tower of Babel

Yep, you read that right. Petersen did this make by himself, and it's the best damn boss fight of the game! And possibly the hardest (that's not saying much, to be honest, considering all id Software bosses are easy). The Cyberdemon arena is something to be admired as THE arena fight of the game. Also, the music track perfectly captivates the battle.

 

E3M1: Hell Keep

Even less ammo than E2M1! Damn. Yeah, not spectacular. It's more a waiting game than anything, though you can go a bit ham with the shotgun if you want to speed things up a bit. An average map, though it does look like Hell.

 

E3M2: Slough of Despair

Very interesting design: a hand. That is cool. In addition, the level still feels like you're in Hell. There are a few techbase-things here (like the blue door, or that switch on the left side of the map), but it's 95% Hell-looking. That's pretty good. There are LOADS of Lost Souls, which can make combat a bit annoying, but you get some ammo, along with a Plasma Rifle and a Rocket Launcher (and a Berserk, if I remember). The tension going around a corner is so well done here.

 

E3M3: Pandemonium (w/ Hall)

Pandemonium is actually quite an appropriate title: this is a mess! The gameplay is good, and the music kicks arse, but the design is very weird to say the least. But then again, looking at the title, I could sort of understand the techbase-y walls (but then again, not really, to be honest). First BFG of the game is here, and the enemy placement is pretty precise. Gotta love it.

 

E3M4: House of Pain

The techbase looking design only comes into play in the second half of the map. Before that, it's pure Hell, and it looks sweet. Blood pools with platforms extending across them, an ENTIRE ROOM OF SCREAMING FACES, and ample opportunity to use that recently-acquired BFG? This is awesome. The tech-y area towards the end is a bit of a puzzle, and it quite interesting. You didn't see a lot of puzzles in the original games, so this bit of variation helps the game from getting too stale.

 

E3M5: Unholy Cathdral

This level is truly fantastic in its design. This really does look like a Hellish place of worship. The layout can be confusing, and there are quite a few secrets, but that doesn't bother me. This map encourages exploration (Petersen is a master of this) and, along with the music and the, at times, spooky design (those yellow, stretched-out faces for example) only makes the experience all the more cool. Only complaint is the green sewer-like secret area. It's a bit too Earth-like for me.

 

E3M6: Mt. Erebus

The BEST level in all of Ultimate Doom. This level is drastically different from the other maps in that it's a wide open adventure. Sure, there are many Lost Souls, but the hordes can be dispatched with ease when you know when they open up. Exploring the different buildings is just so cool, and each one houses a different sort of trap. My favourite is the blue-key trap, which encourages you to go quickly, otherwise you'll be mince meat. Lots of BFG and Rocket action! Amazing.

 

E3M9: Warrens

My SECOND favourite level in Ultimate Doom. It starts out like Hell Keep, only you have ammo. But, that's when the twist comes into play: there's more! We've got a Cyberdemon battle, a Spectre-horde, and a Cacodemon-and-Shotgunner splatter delight (in a tech-y area, but I excuse it since it's a secret map). Just... great.

 

E3M7: Gate to Limbo (w/ Hall)

This level gets the feeling of being in Hell more than any other map in Ultimate Doom. The layout is complex yet never frustrating, but enemy placement is great, and the pacing is tight, which is great. Not very hard, if I'm honest, but it's fun, and that's what's more important. Having fun.

 

E3M8: DIS

Honestly, in a continuous run, this is a pathetically easy level. But hey, that music is nice and for first-time players, that Spider Mastermind is a beast to kill. The design is simple, but appropriate. Gotta love the building in the middle!

 

Right, I'll do Doom 2 in a different post, since this post has already taken longer than it should have.

Edited by Poncho

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Much respect to the people who like Doom 2 more than Doom 1, I'm on your side. Doom 2 is better to me too.

 

BUT

 

There's an important facet to consider when someone criticizes an artistic medium. You're probably familiar with the euphemism that you don't have to be an experienced chef to know when food doesn't taste right. The rest of that euphemism would go on to explain that anyone is perfectly qualified to say that a particular food doesn't taste well, and they may say something like it needs less salt or more ranch dressing or whatever. 

 

The important thing to consider is that Cacodemon345's suggestions for improvement are not really coming from a place of professional opinion. However, his feelings about how Doom 2 just isn't quite as good of a gameplay experience as he wanted are still correct, and that's what needs to be considered.

 

Granted, none of us here are in the position of improving Doom 2 in the meaning of actually modifying the levels, so there isn't really any action to be done here other than to discuss our opinions and make some food for thought to apply in our own personal creations. That said, let's move on...

 

Consider this opinion: "Why is there never enough ammo to kill the monsters? You need to put more ammo in here so I can actually KILL the things I'm supposed to kill! How the fuck am I supposed to kill these cyberdemons with just a shotgun? This is retarded. This map sucks."

 

Even though the player says you should be putting more ammo in the map to make it fun, the player may not know that you set those cyberdemons up on purpose to be telefragged so you wouldn't need ammo to kill them. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean your map is free from any problem. The problem with the map is that there is something that you did to build the expectation that these cyberdemons were meant to be killed with weapons, and by not providing ammunition, you, the level designer, denied that expectation and put the player in a frustrating situation that wasn't enjoyable. That's a problem, and it's important.

 

So when Cacodemon345 says that Doom 2 isn't very good for some reason, we can't fairly expect him to assess everything that's wrong with it accurately if he doesn't really have much experience making levels in the first place. But that doesn't mean his feelings that Doom 2 is bad are wrong or that he's wrong for having those feelings. It's up to us as level designers to interpret his complaints and explain them in a way other level designers might understand. 

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^ that actually kind of made me think of it in a different manner. It reminds me of the manner in which people may like, say Barrels O' Fun simply for the mix of barrels (which everyone loves) and crazy chain explosions, whereas most experienced mappers recognize its design flaws first and foremost.

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9 minutes ago, Kapanyo said:

^ that actually kind of made me think of it in a different manner. It reminds me of the manner in which people may like, say Barrels O' Fun simply for the mix of barrels (which everyone loves) and crazy chain explosions, whereas most experienced mappers recognize its design flaws first and foremost.

Since I have to be a special little snowflake, I'm one of those people. But I guess the fact I find it a chore to go through whenever I'm playing through Doom 2 using any weapon/game-play mod that changes the vanilla game play is a sign that it isn't that well made.

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Barrels of Fun has its place in the bigger picture. It's a collection of Sandy set-pieces to break up the regular action; coming as it does between the dense combat of Catacombs and cautious platforming of The Chasm; it's sorta nice to have a dumb run 'n' gun stage with splosions as a break from that.

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At the risk of getting booed off Doomworld, can someone explain what's bad about Barrels of Fun, from a design perspective? It's one of the most memorable Doom 2 levels for me and one of those map that really captures that feeling of the designer having fun with the engine. 

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5 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Did you even play The Plutonia Experiment in Nightmare difficulty?

Demos or it didn't happen. Gl hf!

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2 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Demos or it didn't happen. Gl hf!

Good thing you said demos or I'd just quote a video.

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I can confirm that I died 100% of the time in a Nightmare session of Plutonia, according to TNS statistics. But, it's definitely not impossible as there were a good handful of people who managed to survive pretty well and had experience with playing on Nightmare before. Nothing tops the memory of spending 5 hours stuck on MAP14 until JCD finally got a proper arch-vile boost to the exit.

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Alright, here's my rundown about John Romero and American McGee's maps.

 

(Doom 2 for now, will do Ultimate Doom's one in a different post).

 

(THIS WILL BE VERY LONG!! And forgive the wall of text).

 

MAP02 : Underhalls

It may be short, but it is also a good map that has a great music. You start in a place just before the Former Humans, then you kill them and activate a switch. You will also find the Super Shotgun here, which will later prove useful for cleaning out the rooms full of small enemies. You will be delighted to get inside the red key card building and when you gib enemies through barrels and the map itself was very aesthetically appealing.

MAP03 : Gantlet

There's nothing wrong with this map actually. When you get into the water area, there's a demon that you can't see. It will caught you off guard if you can't actually pay close attention. That moment was very cool. I also found this map to be cool as you travel across the water killing zombies and imps which was cool. The visual appearance could use some improvement through. You also get to use the super shotgun against zombies and imps when you can't kill them in one hit. with the normal shotgun. Also contains suspensefulness.

MAP04 : The Focus

This one's also good, there's shotgunners and then there is darkness. You also can miss the switch if you don't pay close attention. You also get to meet the chaingunner for the first time. You will keep wondering what to do to reduce darkness and then you find a switch. You will later find a switch that will disable lights again, a interesting trap. Secrets are also placed pretty well. And another thing? It contains intense fights and music as well! I did find the way to reach the switch to raise a way to the exit door stupid through.

MAP05 : The Waste Tunnels

Another suspenseful map. On higher difficulties, you get to fight the Hell Knight. You need to have wits and speed to access secret areas and also keep both doors open at a surprising yet survivable trap. The Soulsphere and Berserk secret and the plasma rifle secret was also cool for me. You can fight Cacodemons at the end area, intense again.

MAP06 : The Crusher

My favourite map. Depending on difficulties, either you encounter a Hell Knight or a Spider Mastermind. There isn't a plenty of ammo to finish them, so you soften them up and then brutally kill them with the crusher as the name suggests. Ridiculously easy to reach a secret through. It is aesthetically and gameplay pleasing map. There is a secret where you have to destroy a barrel by launching a rocket against it to destroy other barrels and to kill the enemies in the process and to get items there. You get introduced to the Revenant here.

MAP07 : Dead Simple

Get super shotgun first, then actually 10 backpacks. Press switch to get into battle with the Mancubi and the Arachnotrons. It is really simple to kill monsters and hit the exit switch, hence the name. A intense map but if you are slow, the Mancubi and the Arachnotrons can kick your ass badly.

Note: Was also designed by Sandy Petersen. Exception to his maps here.

MAP11 : Circle Of Death (or O of Destruction)

I absolutely love this map. The Keycard hunt was good and the archvile caught me off guard. Nice secret and aesthetics here. Loved the loop-around design and the two alternate ways, one normal and one secret, to get the red keycard. Also loved the fact that you can miss the BFG9000 if you don't give good attention.

MAP14 : The Inmost Dens

Medieval map. Don't mind the brown textures here, because it has nicely placed monsters and decorations. Not much to say about this.

MAP15 : Industrial Zone

Another big map that lives up to its map. As I said before and agreed with, not so good aesthetics here, but apart from that, it is a sort of slaughter-ish map (I think so). It takes a very long time and patience to play this. The entire idea behind this is excellent as well.

MAP17 : Tenements

Tenements is long map that also requires wit, but aesthetically pleasing. The funniest thing? You will wonder how to get the BFG, then you will hit use against the wall which won't work, you will then find a different texture and find a switch, pressing against it will then open that said secret. The path to the red keycard was too short, maybe increasing the size of it would make it easier? You have to go back and forth to reach the exit.

Impatient Doomers say: When I will get to the exit?!

MAP20 : Gotcha!

One can play the map to the end in a easy way. Loved the Spider Mastermind against Cyberdemon infighting, along with Pain Elemental telefrag surprise.

MAP26 : The Abandoned Mines

The tight spaces make things pretty engaging here. It also makes it sort of good, maybe.

MAP29 : The Living End

A map that starts in the style of Dead Simple, and is much larger and longer and also has lot of hard and easy monsters. A good map, but difficult and challenging map.

 

The earth maps, however, are lackluster in terms of visual.

Correct me if I am wrong in some aspects.

Edited by Cacodemon345

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23 hours ago, fraggle said:

I think some of the criticisms of Sandy Petersen's work are valid ones; compared to some of the other id mappers (Romero, but particularly Tom Hall), his levels are far more abstract and gameplay-focused. It's unsurprising really since his background was in tabletop games rather than video games. Painting with a very broad brush, I feel like Doom 1 is "Romero and Hall's work" and Doom 2 is "Sandy Petersen's work", hence the difference (I know that's not entirely true, but there's an element of truth to it).

 

Different people have differing tolerances for gameplay vs. visuals. It's worth bearing in mind that most people still playing classic Doom in 2018 are probably more concerned with the gameplay than the visuals, hence some of the reactions in this thread.

I think Sandy was a much better Quake level designer than a Doom level designer, and Quake's drab palette worked for him rather than against him and made his texturing more visually coherent.

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"Having a NM category in speedrunning ⇒ NM is one of the intended ways of playing Doom"? This seems off... Maybe also Tyson, Pacifist or other categories also are?

 

Nice to read Steve D's ideas though :)

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Finally getting around to doing this: my Doom 2 Petersen rundown!

 

(Note: there are two levels which he co-made in this game; one with Tom Hall - who'd been long gone by this point - and American McGee).

 

(Another note: this will be very long).

 

MAP01: Entryway

A nice run-and-saw level. The triangular-like starting room is truly iconic, and the two fields we see in the map (one by the chainsaw, and of course the secret shotgun area) add to the level's sweet design. It's got well-placed secrets, too.

 

MAP07: Dead Simple (w/ McGee)

One of the most famous maps EVER. And for good reason. You get some ammo, kill the Mancubi, kill the Arachnotrons and leave. The title says it all. As a sidenote, the enemy placement is truly fantastic.

 

MAP08: Tricks and Traps

Petersen himself said that this map didn't have an aesthetic theme, but rather a suspenseful sort of theme, which he pulls off to maximum effect. The multiple different scenarios are nothing short of genius - the Cyberdemon vs. 20 Barons fight, the Imp horde, the Cacodemon cloud, the Demon pack... it's all great. Except the Pain Elemental trap. Fuck that.

 

MAP09: The Pit

Oh, dear. The one almost no one enjoys. I personally do, though it would've been better to have named it plural (The Pits) since there are quite a few. Anyway, the music is fitting and the level seems to evoke some sort of excavation site (yes, I know the episode's meant to be a spaceport or whatnot, but considering the sky texture, it must have landed on Earth). The new enemies are used nicely, the combat is challenging, but never unfair (even the huge wall of Chaingunners isn't too bad, even without a BFG). The stingyness of the ammo is something people complain about, but come on. Strategy is needed, even is a game like Doom.

 

MAP10: Refueling Base (w/ Hall)

Trivia: this was originally in the original Doom. Anyway, this is one of the most underrated maps of the game. People always complain about the ammo (again) and the combat, but it's really great when you think about it. It's got 18 secrets (encourages exploration and are thankfully not too tough to find), and a ton of monsters that DON'T just serve to rack up the body count: take the infamous Zombie room, for example: the way the room's made makes it a lot tougher than something like MAP04 of Sector 666. The music is good (another thing people hate about this map) and the surprise traps are very effective.

 

MAP12: The Factory

Yeah... the worst map of the game. Like Refinery, it's not BAD, but it's a bit dull. I like the Imp horde at the start and I enjoy killing the Arachnotrons guarding the eponymous building, but inside it's a lot less interesting. It's got good enemy placement, though. However, the same can't be said for the final room, which is more annoying than anything.

 

MAP13: Downtown

Here we go!!! Yes, I admit it, the buildings are ugly. But that's what I love about it. Think about it: this is Doomguy's home city. He's just some regular marine (or was before the invasion), so he probably lived in some shithole of a place. Sure, say I'm overanalysing this, but that's another thing that I love about classic Doom: making out stuff from its design. Anyway, the gameplay makes up for the shoddy look of the place. The secrets are well though out, the enemies are always a threat, but again, never unfair, the non-linearity adds to the map's replayability, and it's all around fun.

 

MAP31: Wolfenstein

It's E1F1! And we've got some Nazis to slaughter. Seriously, how can you NOT like this?

 

MAP32: Grosse

It's pronounced "Gru-sir", by the way. It would've been cool to fight Hans himself, but a Cyberdemon will do. The Commander Keen cameo is cool as well.

 

MAP16: Suburbs

My third favourite map in the game. Again, there are some ugly parts (the exit area looks weird), but some things I can understand: maybe the black-block exit area is supposed to ressemble an office building? Also, the house you start in is really cool. I always like to think that this is Doomguy's actual house. The gameplay is really what makes this shine, though: we get the first official map to use TWO Arch-Viles, and we are also delighted with one hell of a slaughterfest! Even with the Invulnerability, you must be careful about the ammo consumption. That's what I enjoy about these maps: the skill and strategy needed to beat them. And that is something Petersen understood very well.

 

MAP18: The Courtyard

Again, how could anyone dislike this? Let everything infight, do the side areas, get the secrets, leave. Fun stuff. The catacombs are deadly, yet so cool and the Blue Key room is nothing short of fantastic (I like how it's hiding in a sea of potions).

 

MAP19: The Citadel

I can see why someone would dislike this, due to its confusing nature. But come on, it's a FUCKING CASTLE!! Even people who hate Petersen grudgingly admit that this map's design is truly something to love. This is non-linearity at its finest. What's also cool is that you're not obliged to get all three keys, just two. Again, the traps are shocking yet thoroughly satisfying to defeat.

 

MAP21: Nirvana

I don't know why people dislike this. Is it because it's very short? Well, it's true that it's short, but by that logic, MAP07 must be rubbish too. Anyway, it's a fairly standard map: complete each portion until you reach the end. It's quite dangerous, especially the end, with Chaingunners who can blitz you in no time (luckily there's a barrel) and other demonic monsters. See, this is what I'm talking about: Petersen knows where to place his enemies. Also, for those wondering why there's nukage (green slime) in Hell, my theory is that it's an energy source that came from Hell. This well be relevant later...

 

MAP23: Barrels o' Fun

Again, people hate this one. It's a gimmick map, and it encourages fast gameplay. So, if you've been going slowly, it's a nice change of pace. The different scenarios are all (obviouslt) different from one another trap. The only bad one is, of course, the Pain Elemental room. Also, the look of the level feels Hellish (not many tech textures around here, which clearly shows Petersen's evolution as a mapper). Love the lava, too.

 

MAP24: The Chasm

The most hated of them all... is my second favourite of the game. No, I'm not joking. It's the rare case of making a melange of fast and slow-paced gameplay. I always thought this was a human outpost that was overrun by the demons (all the humans are now those Chaingunners in the control centre). The platforming is also something people dislike but, unlike levels that would come later (like MAP05 of Sunder), these are easy to navigate. Yeah, some Cacodemons could attack you, but the ledges are just straight lines with 90 degree turns. I mentioned this in a previous post on this thread: I've only been playing this game for three years, and I can beat this map NO PROBLEM on UV (the proper difficulty setting, btw). So the fact I'm better than people who've been playing it for decades shows the rather silliness of the critiquing. One final thing: that blue water room is the water supply room. Nukage could've been replaced with lava (that would've been AWESOME), but as I said before, nukage, in my mind, comes from Hell.

 

MAP27: Monster Condo

The hardest map in the game, maybe? The traps are ALL difficult and shocking, but all give you time to react and space to use. The use of lighting in this is something that I love. That's something people don't go on about too much about these earlier maps: the lighting. It's truly great here. But back to the traps: they open at a moment's notice, but still give you time to react, which is something I can't say for some maps in Speed of Doom... or TN fucking T. I like the bookcases and the torture room, which suggests narrative once again.

 

MAP28: The Spirit World

Without a doubt the best goddamn map in any of the official wads. WHAT IS THERE TO HATE!? Let's run down a list:

1. It REALLY looks like Hell.

2. There's a fucking throne!!!

3. There's not just one, but TWO SPIDER MASTERMINDS WHO DUKE IT OUT!!!

4. A lot of energy cells.

5. EXPERT enemy placement (especially for the Arch-Viles).

6. The last room is just AMAZING!!!

7. The secrets are all handy and cool.

Sorry, Odyssey of Noises, but this map just beats you.

 

MAP30: Icon of Sin

It's weird seeing nukage. I would've preferred lava. But it's not too hard. The hardest thing, really, is that Revenant. Not too tough, not too bad.

 

Whoo! That took a good twenty minutes.

Edited by Poncho

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There are two kinds of people : Those who race the barrels in barrel's o fun and reach the door\teleport first, and those who die horribly!

 

Edit : While on maps people hate : Citadel can burn in a fire. Pit and focus on nightmare can burn in a hell fire.

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Alright, here's my rundown on Ultimate Doom maps made by John Romero, American McGee, Shawn Green and Tim Wilits.

 

(WILL BE LONG!!)

 

E1M1 : Hangar

First map, first favourite. Has intense music and gameplay, and is fast-paced. Secrets are also placed pretty well, and there's also a cool secret where you find the shotgun. I found the last secret after backtracking into the darker area, then into the shotgun area to ride the elevator.

E1M2 : Nuclear Plant

A suspenseful map. You are introduced to the chainsaw here. But finding it is difficult, requires shooting at a computer terminal. But the maze area is cool but also confusing. Aesthetically and gameplay pleasing map with monsters and secrets placed pretty well.

E1M3 : Toxin Refinery

A map that has a cool and engaging secret entrance and remarkable loop-around design. It is an adventurous map. Has a redkey trap that may or may not scare you, but nevertheless cool trap. Contains cool secret area and a slime pit.

E1M4 : Command Control (with Tom Hall)

The best of all maps. Aesthetically and gameplay pleasing. And it has a cool looking layout. Romero improved Tom Hall's map, improving it greatly. A epitome of all Doom maps.

E1M5 : Phobos Lab

The same level that you see in the Demo. Has a lot of monsters well placed alongside barrels, along with cool weapons. Has a courtyard, a rocket launcher room, a room with powerups and weapons. It is really good, and has a few secret areas well designed.

E1M6 : Central Processing

Another intense map. You may be running in circles for keys, but the trap was rather cool but cruel. Again kudos to Romero for the amazing loop-design and also for the cool secret areas.

E1M7 : Computer Station

This time it is a suspenseful map. I found the secrets more rewarding than any other secrets in this game. Is also aesthetically pleasing, along with monsters placed well.

E1M9 : Military Base

Romero is a master of this secret map. You will find the music here very good, as well as the structure and monster and keycard placement.

E4M1 : Hell Beneath

Really intense map, the ammo is scarce here and you encounter a lot of monsters here. Pretty hellish map, I guess. Also love the NIN secret here.

E4M2 : Perfect Hatred

Most difficult map of all time, the enemies here and a cyberdemon will kill you in no time unless you make use of infighting and weapons here properly. Again intense and slaughtering here.

E4M3 : Sever the Wicked

Contains intense fights which intensifies as you play through the map. A great map on it's own and a masterpiece in my opinion.

E4M4 : Unruly Evil

Easier than most E4 maps. Gives you a feeling that you are in Hell. Also a suspenseful map, and has a great layout.

E4M5 : They Will Repent

It's not bad, but it's somewhat lackluster, especially about monster placement. Can be considered, as it was Tim Willits first map.

E4M6 : Against Thee Wickedly

Another difficult map. You need to enter a teleporter from certain sides to access areas, a cool gimmick in my opinion. The lava pit deals 5% damage per second. So, it is difficult.

E4M7 : And Hell Followed

You need to pay good attention to the place where the redskull key is, or you will also be running in circles here. Otherwise, I found the idea behind this map pretty good.

E4M8 : Unto the Cruel

Last level of the Ultimate Doom. Keycard hunts are really interesting here, but the Spider-Mastermind fight isn't. Like the idea behind the keycard hunt and the usage of the spectres.

 

Yep, not as good as my previous rundown, but here it is.

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The maps in Doom 2 are harder to play through and people die more often in them. That aspect alone heavily affects how the maps are remembered in hindsight. The game design and layout in Doom 2 is better than the original Doom, but the experience playing through those maps are not. There is "less to see" because people aren't focused in on what the individual maps are like. Mere survival is more important. The original Doom is child's play, even on Nightmare difficulty. I'll give the original Doom fair due though; its soundtrack trumps Doom 2 hands down.

Edited by Dreamskull : People often forget that important aspect.

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