The /newstuff Chronicles #95

AndrewB: "This WAD isn't very good."
Doomer: "Blah, I won't download it then."

Liam the Bard: "This WAD is the biggest piece of crap since Rosie O'Donnell ate twelve hams in one sitting, I wouldn't play this WAD again for all the tea in China, what a fucking stupid level, I hate you."
Doomer: "OH YEAH WELL FUCK YOU LIAM I AM GOING TO DOWNLOAD IT AND COMMENT ON IT AND MAKE DEMOS FOR IT!"

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Well, I thing Liam has made a fair review on my levels, although he has a sarcastic sence of humour and made some stingy comments about my common sense or moral, but he was thoroughly fair about my wads.

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I certainly never expected his review of Carnage Galore 3 (first episode) to be that...enthusiastic, heheh.

Had me laughing for quite a while...

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lament said:

Liam doesn't attack Ishmaele. He just attacks his maps.


Yeah and that's probably just because it's made by a guy who's 'new' to mapping. There's nothing wrong with alien.wad. It has more gameplay ideas than most other recently released maps.

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lament said:

Liam doesn't attack Ishmaele. He just attacks his maps.

As if THAT would be any better.
A reviewer has to seem neutral - even if he doesn't like the maps.

Bashing the crap out of a map will only make the author sad - maybe even discourage him/her from doing more maps.

Here are a few pointers on how to review a map (or anything creative at all):

Start finding the good stuff about the wad and mention that - no matter how crappy a wad is it has some good aspects (1337 everyone?). Initially praising the author will soften the impact of the negative criticism that's to come.

Criticize the weak spots (read: bad stuff) of the wad, but DON'T be harsh, just say straight out that these thing could be improved upon. Nobody likes to have shit thrown in their face for taking their time to work on a map.

Conclude the review of the wad by briefly mentioning some more/the good spots again.

In other words: Praise it, criticize the bad stuff, praise it again.

And if you can't find the good stuff in a wad no matter how crappy it is, then you aren't fitting as a reviewer imo.

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All bad critics criticise more than they praise, its easier to write something dramatic and angry that will rouse up interest in the article than something middling.

Also Liam's criticism of Duelling Keeps seems to be purely because it uses legacy. Wads should be reviewed on their own merits for whatever port concerned, or you might as well complain that all the good wads aren't for hexen.

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Rellik said:

Don't bother uploading your levels unless you're sure it fits into Liams very narrow and superficial idea of "good". All this guy's doing is embarrasing DOOMWORLD.


Actually, uploading a WAD to the Archive isn't so that it will appear in the chronicles, that's secondary. Time will tell if a WAD is good (or it won't, as many pass more or less unnoticed, but if anything does, it will.)

BBG: is that really his pic?

It is true that Liam's presentations (people keep calling these reviews, which they can't be because reviews require more time) aren't too useful and that a person more dedicated to playing thoroughly may have more subtle yet "to the point" things to say, but you have to find such a person in the 1st place. I sure wouldn't be any good, as I only play certain WADs and completely ignore others...

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dsm said:

As if THAT would be any better.
A reviewer has to seem neutral - even if he doesn't like the maps.

Bashing the crap out of a map will only make the author sad - maybe even discourage him/her from doing more maps.

Here are a few pointers on how to review a map (or anything creative at all):

Start finding the good stuff about the wad and mention that - no matter how crappy a wad is it has some good aspects (1337 everyone?). Initially praising the author will soften the impact of the negative criticism that's to come.

Criticize the weak spots (read: bad stuff) of the wad, but DON'T be harsh, just say straight out that these thing could be improved upon. Nobody likes to have shit thrown in their face for taking their time to work on a map.

Conclude the review of the wad by briefly mentioning some more/the good spots again.

In other words: Praise it, criticize the bad stuff, praise it again.

And if you can't find the good stuff in a wad no matter how crappy it is, then you aren't fitting as a reviewer imo.

Duuuuude

newstuff is not to praise mappers. It is to give intelligent reviews to potential players. If the reviews say that all maps are really, really good, then who the fuck is going to believe them?

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myk said:

It is true that Liam's presentations (people keep calling these reviews, which they can't be because reviews require more time)

Uh, AFAIK he spent three weeks on a review once :)

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I think a review (on any topic) should do the following:
1) Explain what the product is trying to do. (What does it do?)
2) Give an opinion as to the value of that aim. (Is it worth doing?)
3) Assess how well it achieves those aims. (How well does it do it?)
4) Offer opinions on how (if applicable) it might have been done better. (How could it be improved?)
5) Give some sort of recommendation to readers. (Should we get it?)

In that way the reviewer can express his own opinions very freely while still giving readers enough information to make up their own mind. It needn't be 100% regimented, but a review that does no more than one or two of the above is, IMHO, a poor review.

Having said that, few reviews in any subject live up to these standards. Reviewing, especially on a regular basis, is more difficult than it looks.

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lament said:

Duuuuude

newstuff is not to praise mappers. It is to give intelligent reviews to potential players. If the reviews say that all maps are really, really good, then who the fuck is going to believe them?

Did I say anything about newstuff being about beings exclusively to praise the mappers? NO I FUCKING DIDN'T.
Sorry if I might sound rude but perhaps you didn't read WHAT I wrote in my post.

What I meant is that you can easily give the community (and the map author) the message that the wad ain't good but there's no fucking reason to bash the living shit out of the wad.

Find the good points in a wad and display these to encourage the mapper to do some more mapping and criticize the bad things (doesn't matter if this is the longest part of the review) in a polite manner. And no, I did not think that Liam's so-called "reviews" are intelligent.
A reviewer who just beats down something done by others, be it a wad, a game or a story, is a BAD reviewer.

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myk said:

BBG: is that really his pic?


No, I'm lying to you. Of course it is his pic. Heh.

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I'm all for criticizing and complimenting whenever necessary, but not for praising something for no apparent reason or bashing a map or an author.

BBG: You've got to be fucking kidding me. Is that hobbit-like child really Liam?

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Linguica: That about sums it all up (in a very humorous fashion). :) But.. I don't think it's worthwhile for anyone to be downloading crappy wads just because Liam says they suck.

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Maonth: There's a lot of things wrong with alien.wad. But I agree with you about the other part; I'd be damned (once again) if I'd let someone say I'm an idiot just because I'm new and made a bad 1st map.

Look at that review of Afterdoom I posted and tell me if you see Lut calling me a fool or my wad a joke anywhere on that page, because I sure as hell got respect even though Afterdoom DOES suck.
And then there's the Dark Castle review. Notice Lut wasn't all "it's goddamn incredible!" but was like "this is some really decent shit that's worth a download."

P.S. Which reminds me, I hope Millenium gets released. Lut's put a lot of effort into it.

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dsm said:

-NO I FUCKING DIDN'T.
-You've got a screw loose if that's what you think
-but there's no fucking reason to bash the living shit out of the wad
-And no, I did not think that Liam's so-called "reviews" are intelligent.

That, ladies and gentlemen, was posted by a doomworld mod asking Liam to be more polite. DSM, you not only proved that you are just as rude as Liam, but you also proved you're retarded.

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Liam The Bard Rules.

The only reason I visit Doomworld these days is to read the reviews in Newstuff. Liam is phuqin brilliant. I dont agree with everything he writes but I love reading it anyway. I actually like Gherkins work but can see what Liam is getting at. I have to say whoever it was that alleged Liam is biased against Legacy maps is talking thorough their arse. Just read through last weeks Newstuff reviews to prove that is a lie. My Legacy only hi-tec style map (Sekkusu) got a very fair review, better than I would have given it myself.

About slagging bad maps, if I was a reviewer and had to force myself to continue playing a really annoying map just to give it a fair review I would make damn sure the author and everyone else knew how annoying the experience was.

Liam, you really are Liam the Bard.

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orion said:

That, ladies and gentlemen, was posted by a doomworld mod asking Liam to be more polite

Are you sure about that? I thought it was a Doomworld mod replying angrily to a trivial and dismissive response to his well-thought-out and helpful post explaining how Liam might make more useful and constructive reviews.

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Yeah, well not everybody can match up to Liam's harsh, harsh reviewing. Take myself for example- I'm acceptionaly good at making my levels gameplay wise, but HORRIBLE at archetecture. I don't think that will ever change, because that's just not one of my talents. But then again, I do suppose 'tis is what Liam said the last time I sent in a level (good gameplay, looks crappy). I just want to know Liam- how DO YOU judge'em? More on gameplay or how it looks? Which is more important to ya?

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Grazza said:

Are you sure about that? I thought it was a Doomworld mod replying angrily to a trivial and dismissive response to his well-thought-out and helpful post explaining how Liam might make more useful and constructive reviews.

Dude, what he did is pretty much like an Anit-Violence Organization beating the crap out of anyone that disagreed with them. It's just retarded.

Plus he is a mod, mods should set examples for people, and all he did is act like an asshole twords lament for not getting what he said before. And it's not like lament is the only one that can't understand what DSM means with his posts. He alweys says one thing, then in a minute something else, disses whoever didn't read into his mind, calls people newbs, and so on. This is not mod behavior.

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Black Void said:

I just want to know Liam- how DO YOU judge'em? More on gameplay or how it looks? Which is more important to ya?

It's obviously not on gameplay as we've seen some excellent wads majoring on gameplay mercilessly derided.

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Yep Colin's reviews are great, balanced, fair and constructive in his comments. I think he takes a lot of time, care and attention which would not really be possible for the weekly Newstuff. Yep they're a great read and can really inspire you to play a map.

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If I were /newstuff reviewer, I would probably botch things up terribly. I don't know the meanings of the words "fair" and "impartial." Plus I'd need experience for this sort of thing.

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orion said:

That, ladies and gentlemen, was posted by a doomworld mod asking Liam to be more polite. DSM, you not only proved that you are just as rude as Liam, but you also proved you're retarded.

And that should come from you?
I'm being "rude" as you call it when I find that people are being rude towards others OR if I find that they act like total retards - I'm giving 'em a taste of their own medicine. And I have been polite, but when people stomp on me, I STOMP BACK!!!

Lament just subsequently refused to read my post in detail and made retarded counter comments. And besides, Lament has already pissed me off a number of times in the past. I'm a human being just like you and if I feel like telling people off, then I'd fucking DO it.

To tell you straight: I'm tired of acting like a nice li'l boy when everyone just throw shit back in my face. So what do I do? I decide to dig up my war axe and do some skull splitttin'.

Plus he is a mod, mods should set examples for people, and all he did is act like an asshole twords lament for not getting what he said before. And it's not like lament is the only one that can't understand what DSM means with his posts. He alweys says one thing, then in a minute something else, disses whoever didn't read into his mind, calls people newbs, and so on. This is not mod behavior.

Funny, when I was a guest, I saw plenty of mods act like total jackasses. I guess we two have different views on what a jackass is. And since you interpret my reactions as acting like a moron, then I suggest that you take a careful look at yourself and ask: Am I really better? I was polite at first, then I got shit thrown back at me. So what am I supposed to do? Just sit back and watch how people bash my requests?
No, I am not patient enough for that.

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dsm said:

Lament just subsequently refused to read my post in detail and made retarded counter comments. And besides, Lament has already pissed me off a number of times in the past. I'm a human being just like you and if I feel like telling people off, then I'd fucking DO it.

Wow, that's nice to know. You're such a jerk.

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dsm said:

And that should come from you?
I'm being "rude" as you call it when I find that people are being rude towards others OR if I find that they act like total retards - I'm giving 'em a taste of their own medicine. And I have been polite, but when people stomp on me, I STOMP BACK!!!

Lament just subsequently refused to read my post in detail and made retarded counter comments. And besides, Lament has already pissed me off a number of times in the past. I'm a human being just like you and if I feel like telling people off, then I'd fucking DO it.

To tell you straight: I'm tired of acting like a nice li'l boy when everyone just throw shit back in my face. So what do I do? I decide to dig up my war axe and do some skull splitttin'.

Funny, when I was a guest, I saw plenty of mods act like total jackasses. I guess we two have different views on what a jackass is. And since you interpret my reactions as acting like a moron, then I suggest that you take a careful look at yourself and ask: Am I really better? I was polite at first, then I got shit thrown back at me. So what am I supposed to do? Just sit back and watch how people bash my requests?
No, I am not patient enough for that.

Yes that should come from me, I am not a mod, I don't have the same responcebilities as you, and I would never ask for them. A mod should act differently from the avrege memeber, and oh look, I'm an avrege member, and you're a mod. You can stop comparing me to you now.

Moving on, no one even 'stomped' at you, lament just simply said what he thought and you went ape shit. I don't see any personal attacks in his post (the one that pissed you off anyway), yet I see a few of them, in your posts. Quit acting like you're just defending yourself.

You're a mod, keep all personal grudges to yourself and treat people according to their actions. He didn't attack you, so you don't attack him, honestly, even if he did attack you, you're a mod and should act like the bigger person. Just ignore the posts that piss you off or try to argue without resulting in name calling and shit like that. You could also ask a super mod or admin to delete them since they would most likely be on your side. Whatever, I'm just trying to help you out, you don't have to listen to me.

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Put the shit down people :

Post 1 ) DSM suggests that constructive criticism is required when reviewing maps, rather than a straight-out slagging off.

Post 2) Lament interprets that as DSM saying /newstuff is there to 'praise mappers'.

Post 3) DSM defends himself

And on it goes.

Lament, perhaps you should read posts more carefully? Besides which, DSM almost always has a good point to make, and in this case he made a good point from a reviewer's perspective (Fanfic forum anyone?).

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Why is it when people become MODS here they think they can go on a powertrip?
DSM is an excellent MOD. He is fair with his judgement and he doesn't leave people feeling like shit, ok, he occasionaly says to people things they don't like but he does it constructively, not many other mods do that (some do).
Lament-why do you feel the need to be "the all-powerful one" here? is it a powertrip for you? or maybe you just want to be like railgunner and make everyone feel bad? What you said to DSM was out of line and I think you need to open your eyes and READ what other people write and not interpret it for something that it isn't!

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