What is your favorite sector light mode for GZDoom?

[[McD] James]

Don't think I've ever seen this poll here before.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Ajora

[dpJudas]

You forgot the most important light mode of them all: Software! The only one that actually looks like Doom.

Edited February 1, 2018 by dpJudas

[seed]

No actual Software lightning in the poll, so I'll just go ahead and assume "Doom" is supposed to be that.

 

For a while I used the Standard option but then for an extra dose of retro I changed it to Software, although I found myself using the actual Software render ever since I finished TNT for some reason.

[Vorpal]

Every time I fire up gzdoom (once every year or so) I have to spend 45 minutes unfucking the default graphics settings. It's so disheartening how 95% of youtube videos use it and just roll with the default flat lighting and smeared textures and clipped sprites :-(

 

edit: was mad enough just now to make a quick mockup.

 

The bottom left custom config was the closest I could get to vanilla/zdoom, no matter what the lighting contrasts slightly too much (shown) or too little.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Vorpal

[dpJudas]

30 minutes ago, Agent6 said:

No actual Software lightning in the poll, so I'll just go ahead and assume "Doom" is supposed to be that.

That's actually what's so annoying thing about the GZDoom light modes. They are named in such confusing ways that a newcomer to Doom has no chance in hell knowing which one is closest to the original game. Doesn't exactly help it defaults to Dark, which doesn't even have diminishing light..

[seed]

9 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

That's actually what's so annoying about the GZDoom light modes. They are named in such confusing ways that a newcomer to Doom has no chance in hell knowing which one is closest to the original game. Doesn't exactly help it defaults to Dark, which doesn't even have diminishing light..

True.

 

Software lightning is pretty much self-explanatory, but Standard could be renamed into GZDoom Default or something to this effect to avoid confusion with the other, the same can be said for Legacy if it still exists (I've actually never bothered to check all the available sector lightning options).

[Jerry.C]

46 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

That's actually what's so annoying thing about the GZDoom light modes. They are named in such confusing ways that a newcomer to Doom has no chance in hell knowing which one is closest to the original game. Doesn't exactly help it defaults to Dark, which doesn't even have diminishing light..

Hey, you are the one sitting near the source. How about you do something about it then? ;)

Is it even necessary to still have these in the menu? Just have it set to Software for OpenGL 4.x, to Doom for OpenGL 3.x (for performance reasons) and to Dark for OpenGL 2.x with no menu option - just keeping the MAPINFO setting to have a map select what it needs to be played with.

 

Regarding the poll, sorry I cannot vote - the most important choice is missing.

 

[Bauul]

43 minutes ago, Agent6 said:

Standard could be renamed into GZDoom Default or something to this effect to avoid confusion

If I recall correctly, "Standard" is so named because it's the OpenGL Standard lighting model.  It's pretty different to how Doom did lighting originally.  I think "Software" is the closest to the original banded lighting solution, and is ironically the most complex lighting model programatically (it requires OpenGL 3.0+ to work).  "Doom" I believe is meant to be the closest more modern lighting method - no banding, but does have the "player emits light" function that vanilla did.

 

1 hour ago, Vorpal said:

Every time I fire up gzdoom (once every year or so) I have to spend 45 minutes unfucking the default graphics settings.

Out of interest, is this an issue with the OpenGL renderer specifically?  I mean if you set GZDoom to software mode does it look just like the ZDoom screenshot?  

[dpJudas]

3 hours ago, Vorpal said:

The bottom left custom config was the closest I could get to vanilla/zdoom, no matter what the lighting contrasts slightly too much (shown) or too little.

The "software" light mode is literally ZDoom. If the GZDoom software renderer is set to 24-bit truecolor it will look exactly the same (100% same algorithm). However, when you use old ZDoom you have to take into account that it using a palette mode where it can't pick exactly the correct light - it snaps to the nearest colormap. The colormap itself also has the problem that it needs to snap to the closest color in the palette. This causes a minor difference in contrast.

 

You might be able to get the contrast to match a little better if you turn on the palette tonemap. Although the error won't be exactly the same, at least it is still forced to snap to the closest color in the palette that way.

 

2 hours ago, Bauul said:

If I recall correctly, "Standard" is so named because it's the OpenGL Standard lighting model.

Problem is, OpenGL doesn't have a "standard light model" that applies to light levels and diminishing light. The closest is the fixed-function fog mode, which has three settings and additional parameters to adjust them. IMO name is bad as it might make some think its the recommended light mode.

 

2 hours ago, Jerry.C said:

Hey, you are the one sitting near the source. How about you do something about it then? ;)

Is it even necessary to still have these in the menu?

Never really discussed it with the others why the default is what it is. Could be a preference of Graf or it could be simply historical. I know some people in the community really dislike diminishing light and prefer Dark. But yeah, I should probably ask one day on the ZDoom forums if we should change the default to something closer to vanilla Doom. :)

[ranhcase]

Dark all the way, i never really liked the original lighting mode, it looks kinda ugly, i always use dark when i'm on GZDoom.

[Gez]

Other than "bright" and "legacy", you can consider the lighting mode to be successive iterations of an attempt at looking more like the software renderer.

 

Standard (first implementation) -> Dark (approximation of Doom's non-linear light levels) -> Doom (Dark mode + shader-based brightening around the player) -> Software (shader-based reimplementation of Carmack's original software algorithms).

 

Bright is a hybrid of standard and bright. It uses standard's linear light levels but dark's light diminishing.

 

Legacy is an attempt at emulating Doom Legacy's OpenGL renderer.

 

1 hour ago, dpJudas said:

Never really discussed it with the others why the default is what it is. Could be a preference of Graf or it could be simply historical.

I believe it's simply because it's the closest approximation that doesn't require shaders, so it's a failsafe default value. With higher OpenGL requirements now, the default value could be changed.

[[McD] James]

How silly of me to forget Software lighting. The poll has been edited.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Ajora

[xvertigox]

6 hours ago, Vorpal said:

It's so disheartening how 95% of youtube videos use it and just roll with the default flat lighting and smeared textures and clipped sprites :-(

 

 

God, those clipped sprites get me every time. Why is that the default? It looks so bad when a big chunk of the sprite just disappears into the ground :/

 

Edit: Also, software ftw

Edited February 2, 2018 by xvertigox

[Bauul]

16 minutes ago, xvertigox said:

God, those clipped sprites get me every time. Why is that the default?

Because it's accurate, technically speaking. The Doom sprites are offset so the bottom portion of them sticks into the ground, that's how Carmack et al designed it.

 

However in Software mode, the sprites are rendered through the floor, so you can still see them. The issue is OpenGL correctly displays them as disappearing into the ground, so we're left with a difficult situation: in order to make the sprites look right you have to come up with some very clever way to emulate the weird behavior of software.

[Xaser]

The poll results are really making me think changing the default (and perhaps fixing some of the names) is prudent. The mode labeled "Software" is the only correct option. The rest are effectively mods.

[Steve D]

I'm reppin' Dark. From the moment I first played glDoom back in '98, I said "Sayonarra" to software rendering. I like the flat lighting and smeared textures that look smoother. Moving to GZDoom, Dark mode is IMO nice and atmospheric, and the colors pop. I do play a lot of PrBoom these days, so that's where I get a look at Software mode, but otherwise, it's GZDoom Dark all the way.

 

The sprite clipping is a bummer, but it's mostly under mapper's control. Never had a problem with sprites sunk into the floor in my maps, it's always been tall monsters with heads in the ceiling. The simple solution is ceilings 128 units high if you're going to have taller monsters in the area. Given how rarely I encounter this problem in work by other mappers, I think the trade-off is entirely in favor of my preferred rendering and lighting scheme.

[silentzorah]

I just use Doom lighting mode, since it's the closest I can tell to the old software diminished lighting.  But, y'know, my eyes are pretty crap, so I could be totally wrong.  Either way, I like it a bit better than the other lighting modes.

[Vorpal]

10 hours ago, Steve D said:

I like the flat lighting and smeared textures that look smoother.

Your morals are not just questionable, they are the root cause at what is wrong with civilized society in 2018

[Shadow Hog]

On 2/1/2018 at 9:55 PM, Xaser said:

The poll results are really making me think changing the default (and perhaps fixing some of the names) is prudent. The mode labeled "Software" is the only correct option. The rest are effectively mods.

I'm under the impression that the time for more-descriptive names was sufficiently long enough ago that we're sorely overdue for them.

 

Going by the names in the poll and the descriptions on the wiki, something like this would be good:

• Standard -> "Use a standard GL formula"
• Bright -> "Keep sectors relatively bright"
• Doom -> "Old vanilla approximation"
• Dark -> "Old vanilla approximation, no nearby brightening"
  or:
  Dark -> "Old vanilla approximation, no GLSL"
• Legacy ->"Emulate Doom Legacy 1.42 GL lighting"
• Software -> "New vanilla implementation (req. GLSL)"

Though I'm unsure how long the names can get before they start getting cut off by the screen's edge.

 

I also think we're getting to the point where Software can be the default option, though at the same time I'm just wary enough of old hardware still being in use to be truly confident about it.

[Bauul]

@Shadow Hog I think you're on the right lines. I wonder if the names could be snappier a little though.  

 

What about something like:

 

Standard = "Basic"

Bright = "Extra Bright"

Doom = "Modernized"

Dark = "Modernized no player-light" (probably still too long)

Legacy = "Doom Legacy Emulated"

Software = "Classic"

 

That's kind of how my brain sees the light modes anyway. 

[Lila Feuer]

Dark, so GL lights and brightmaps function as the true light sources, realistically doesn't make sense for the player to be self-lighting. But I don't mind using Software if I want whatever I'm playing to have the classic light diminishing effect.

Also, the best tonemap is Palette, sometimes I just want 8-bit color on everything instead of 32-bit true color, it makes dynamic lights have a gradient to them, like Quake's lighting.

[Shadow Hog]

On 2/3/2018 at 3:55 PM, Bauul said:

@Shadow Hog I think you're on the right lines. I wonder if the names could be snappier a little though.  

 

What about something like:

 

Standard = "Basic"

Bright = "Extra Bright"

Doom = "Modernized"

Dark = "Modernized no player-light" (probably still too long)

Legacy = "Doom Legacy Emulated"

Software = "Classic"

 

That's kind of how my brain sees the light modes anyway. 

The problem I see with some of these is that they suffer from the same ambiguity that the current names do. Going from "Standard" to "Basic" still doesn't really describe what it's doing, why it's doing it, or why you'd want it or another lighting choice over another. Not to mention, "Modernized" isn't at all what's really going on with "Doom" and "Dark" - they were attempts to replicate the software diminishing lighting, which is kind of inherently the opposite (and stuck around even when "Software" came along and did what they were attempting to do much better than they did).

 

There's a happy medium somewhere in here, I'm sure of it...

[Xaser]

I'd suggest something like:

• Software => "Doom-Style"
• Standard => "OpenGL 2.0 Compatible"
• Bright => "OpenGL 2.0 Compatible (Bright)"
• Dark => "OpenGL 2.0 Compatible (Dark)"
• Doom => "Outdated Doom-Style Approximation"
• Legacy => "Doom Legacy 1.4 Emulation"

Makes it clear what everything actually is. Emphasis on "Outdated" for that one. :P

 

I forget if ZDoom's menu can switch the order easily (it's an enum behind the scenes), but since it wraps around, the only real difference is swapping (the options formerly known as) "Dark" and "Doom" so the labeling is consecutive.

[Shadow Hog]

Those work, though I wonder if pairing Dark with Bright is the best idea when it's Doom that Dark is paired with. Suppose I'm overthinking that.

[snapshot]

Never cared enough to mess with the lighting settings though I did change sector light mode to Bright, because it seemed too damn dark in some maps.

[Pirx]

On 2/1/2018 at 0:03 PM, Vorpal said:

Every time I fire up gzdoom (once every year or so) I have to spend 45 minutes unfucking the default graphics settings. It's so disheartening how 95% of youtube videos use it and just roll with the default flat lighting and smeared textures and clipped sprites :-(

 

edit: was mad enough just now to make a quick mockup.

 

The bottom left custom config was the closest I could get to vanilla/zdoom, no matter what the lighting contrasts slightly too much (shown) or too little.

 

the shot with the custom gzdoom graphics looks best. what settings do you use? it has really nice contrast, while default gzdoom is too washed out.

[casedistorted]

On 2/1/2018 at 2:03 PM, Vorpal said:

Every time I fire up gzdoom (once every year or so) I have to spend 45 minutes unfucking the default graphics settings. It's so disheartening how 95% of youtube videos use it and just roll with the default flat lighting and smeared textures and clipped sprites :-(

 

edit: was mad enough just now to make a quick mockup.

 

The bottom left custom config was the closest I could get to vanilla/zdoom, no matter what the lighting contrasts slightly too much (shown) or too little.

 

I apologize for bringing up such an old thread but I REALLY had to ask (I cannot figure this out anywhere else and have been looking for an answer forever) but in the bottom left configuration how did you manage to get your HUD size to be about the same look and feel as the Original Doom/Chocolate/prboom?  I've tried setting up my GzDoom to be as close to Vanilla as possible but it takes forever to do, and I have never seemed to find an option for the HUD to make it larger or more like Vanilla.  That's been the one thing I cannot seem to get GzDoom to do is change the HUD the way I want it.

Edit: I think I know of a way to do it but the HUD/DoomGuy face seems to be a bit squished as compared to source ports like Chocolate or PrBoom, and that drives me crazy.  I wish there was a way to make the HUD exactly the way it looks in PrBoom but I don't think you can do this?

I tend to like trying to make my preferred source ports gzDoom and GlBoom+ as close to Vanilla as possible, just sometimes I like to play GzDoom so I can use the high quality sound pack along with Timidity++ and custom sound fonts for better music quality. (Decino got me liking glboom+ more and more, but it seems like there's just some things I cannot do in GlBoom+).  

I like running GzDoom sometimes because I can run the 32x WAD file that runs the game as close to the first version of Doom I was able to play as a kid (on the 32x I know.. but when that was the only Doom music I heard for years I actually grew to like it's Sega Genesis like sounds).  So if I can get GzDoom set up as close to Vanilla as possible it would be my preferred way to play.  Sometimes GlBoom+ has weird mouse look lag that I just don't get in GzDoom so there's pros and cons with every version of source port it seems.

 

Edit: One major thing I like about GzDoom atm is that enabling pitch shifting for monster sounds actually works while in PrBoom I cannot get it to work at all.  This is how I remember the very first versions of Doom I used to play growing up so I actually like it, while most people tend to play with it off.

Thank you for any answers, believe it's my first time posting here.  A lot of random but reading this thread about the different lighting methods got me to thinking about getting my versions of Doom running as close to Vanilla as possible.  

Edited March 29, 2020 by casedistorted : Adding a couple tidbits

[Vorpal]

Gzdoom has since changed its menu system completely but it looks like it's done now by: Options -> HUD Options -> Scaling Options -> Status bar -> change the slider to 5. This is probably different depending on your resolution, I use the bog standard 1080p

 

 

[Lila Feuer]

Software was since made obsolete by "Vanilla" lighting mode, I refuse to opt out of it now.

[Gez]

2 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

Software was since made obsolete by "Vanilla" lighting mode, I refuse to opt out of it now.

For anyone wondering what the difference is, "software" corresponds to ZDoom's software renderer, and "vanilla" corresponds to, well, vanilla Doom's renderer.

 

The reason for ZDoom and vanilla Doom being different in the first place was that vanilla Doom's method was oddly resolution-dependent (something you can test for yourself by changing the screen size, and comparing light levels between full-screen and post-stamp size window).