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qweqioweuo123

infinite lost souls yes or no?

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when playing a vanilla style map, for example hellbound, i have encountered scenarios in which it's an absolute clusterfuck of lost souls all over the place, most exaggerated situation i've seen is map29, the sky is covered in lost souls at some point. while it looks cool, im not sure if this is viable gameplay wise. should this be disabled to get a proper UV-max demo (disabled as in, limit amount of lost souls spawned like on the original doom 2) or do people keep it infinite?

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I believe Hellbound is a vanilla mapset, so you would have to be playing in a vanilla/limit removing port or -complevel 2 in prboom+ (which all have limited lost souls) to even have a valid demo to begin with.

 

So there literally isn't even an option here as you can't even change that setting when using complevel in prboom+. Unless it isn't a vanilla mapset, in which case it depends on its compatibility. complevel 9 (boom) would be infinite (again, can't change).

 

Zdoom would be entirely different though I guess.

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I wish id had made like Raven and give each pain elemental its own lost soul counter instead of using a global count for them all.

 

In Heretic, there are pod spawners that have a limit to how many pods they can have spawned at a time (up to 16 IIRC). When one pod is destroyed, their spawner's counter is decreased, so that they can spawn another. That system would be a good compromise between having a hard limit (that might make pain elementals not a threat when they can't spit anything because there are too many lost souls somewhere else in the level) and infinite spam.

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The wad was tested in GZDoom (no limit by default I think?) and PRBoom+ (limited with correct settings), so it's hard to say what's the intended behavior. Some limit removing maps are clearly supposed to be played without the lost soul limit, otherwise you get pain elementals that can't spawn anything (see Armadosia Map05).

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Hellbound is a limit-removing set (not vanilla :O). In theory it should be played with the lost soul cap, in prBoom+ with complevel 2 for instance. However many of the maps break in complevel 2, since the author didn't thoroughly test it with such settings. As a result, most runs (including both of the ones for map29) ended up being done in complevel 9. You could check the Hellbound table on DSDA to see if runs for a particular map were done in a specific complevel. A complevel 2 demo existing is evidence for the map being stable enough with those settings to run (which isn't to say that it will never break, lol). I would say stick to complevel 2 unless it reliably breaks something, but honestly not many people give a shit. Even SAV88, who is about as serious as a runner as they get, recorded a cl9 demo on a map that appears to work (and has a demo) on cl2. 

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Lost souls should never be limited; all it takes is a smart player and one PE early in a level to break the functionality and therefore threat level, which can alter the make-up of encounters drastically, to render all subsequent PE's useless. I guess that it would favor then small map designs, but for larger maps this makes PE use later on unreliable. As Gez said, raven did it right with gaspods, but since we only have a hard limit per map, the limit should be removed and PE's should retain their status as generally high priority targets, which when they are used right works well to let an encounter develop around players as they clean up the PE's and some lost souls. Lost souls themselves are truly beautiful enemies to round out encounters because of the way they function, so nerfing their numbers only hurts large maps, though of course mappers can always still place more than 21 lost souls, if they don't mind their PE's being self-nerfed.

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23 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Lost souls should never be limited; all it takes is a smart player and one PE early in a level to break the functionality and therefore threat level, which can alter the make-up of encounters drastically, to render all subsequent PE's useless. I guess that it would favor then small map designs, but for larger maps this makes PE use later on unreliable. As Gez said, raven did it right with gaspods, but since we only have a hard limit per map, the limit should be removed and PE's should retain their status as generally high priority targets, which when they are used right works well to let an encounter develop around players as they clean up the PE's and some lost souls. Lost souls themselves are truly beautiful enemies to round out encounters because of the way they function, so nerfing their numbers only hurts large maps, though of course mappers can always still place more than 21 lost souls, if they don't mind their PE's being self-nerfed.

i meant the ability for pain elementals to spawn infinite lost souls

 

i guess it's better off left at infinite. i was just almost unable to finish map 29 from hellbound because i didn't kill the pain elementals fast enough, and i was trapped by an insane amount of lost souls

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Infinite lost souls: No.

Limited lost souls: No.

Any lost souls at all: No.

The guy who invented lost souls: No.

His mom: No.

 

That should make this world a happier place.

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25 minutes ago, 42PercentHealth said:

Infinite lost souls: No.

Limited lost souls: No.

Any lost souls at all: No.

The guy who invented lost souls: No.

His mom: No.

 

That should make this world a happier place.

This guy gets it.

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2 hours ago, qweqioweuo123 said:

i meant the ability for pain elementals to spawn infinite lost souls

I was talking about that.

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3 hours ago, 42PercentHealth said:

Infinite lost souls: No.

Limited lost souls: No.

Any lost souls at all: No.

The guy who invented lost souls: No.

His mom: No.

 

That should make this world a happier place.

All you gotta do when you see a PE is break out the RL or the BFG. If you need to use rockets all it takes is timing a rocket you launch when the PE dies in such a way that it hits the small set of LSs the moment they spawn. More often than not that greatly reduces the threat that comes from killing a PE. This isn't rocket science, literally...

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3 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

This isn't rocket science, literally...

 

3 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

All you gotta do when you see a PE is break out the RL ... If you need to use rockets all it takes is timing a rocket you launch ...

p. sure it is

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I think the infinite lost souls happen because of the fact that certain source-ports remove 21 lost souls limit. It can slow down GZDoom to a crawl as far as I believe.

Your best bet would be to turn on the lost soul limit in GZDoom's compatibility settings.

10 hours ago, Gez said:

Make the floor and wall textures green, and you have your Christmas wrapping paper for this year.

LOL :D

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14 hours ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

But this?

if you wonder: Replace every enemy in NUTS series with Pain Elementals and watch the show.

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2 hours ago, CWolf said:

if you wonder: Replace every enemy in NUTS series with Pain Elementals and watch the show.

 

R.I.P. PC...

Truth be told, I haven't even tried NUTS by itself (but that's a topic for another day).

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There is no limit. The more Lost Souls, the easier it is to get full value out of BFG. Nothing better than cleaving your way through hundreds of Lost Souls with the BFG to that bastard group of Pain Elementals that caused all this.

 

And if all else fails, you can usually just wait it out before they cannibalize themselves and eventually even their mothers in the complete clusterfuck that usually ensues once you provoke them. It is really relaxing to look at the monster/kill count on the automap go up by 40 or more every second and listening to what is basically BDSM demon orgy in the room that contains the Pain Elementals.

 

Open spaces however, are a nice challenge in monster management and require you to eliminate the Pain Elementals ASAP, before the situation goes FUBAR.

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2 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

BDSM demon orgy in the room that contains the Pain Elementals

When I woke up this morning, this is not a phrase I expected to read.

 

In fact, "BDSM demon orgy" is not a phrase I ever expected to read.

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7 hours ago, Pegleg said:

 

 

In fact, "BDSM demon orgy" is not a phrase I ever expected to read.

Now I want to see this.

 

image.png.0ab23ed280ac8301610403b0136da826.png

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Posted (edited)

Lots of lost souls + dynamic lights = Zdoom engine gets slower

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21 hours ago, Pegleg said:

When I woke up this morning, this is not a phrase I expected to read.

 

In fact, "BDSM demon orgy" is not a phrase I ever expected to read.

 

The room is completely full with Lost Souls so most participants almost can't move, akin to being tied down: CHECK

 

A very large amount of torture and violence is distributed to most participants in the said room: CHECK (it is actually lethal to most of them)

 

Copious amounts of grunting and pain sounds are constantly coming out of the said room: CHECK (you even have Pain Elementals saying "Ow!!!", yet they continue spawning more and more Lost Souls until they are eventually unintentionally eaten by their own children, so they obviously enjoy receiving pain to an extreme degree(being Pain Elementals and all)).

 

Probably one of the most fitting definitions I've ever thought of. With the activity being lethal to most of the participants, you could even add "hardcore" to it.

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