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Catpho

How do you feel about e3m8/e4m8/map30(doom2) now? If it was bad, how would you have made it?

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I mean, i can ask it now right :P

Anyway, answer the title. I think that map30 had cool concepts, but done with a flawed execution. E3M8 was pretty underwhelming, e4m8 is also nothing special tbh.

Hmm, for e3m8, i dont really know whats the best way to fix it(buff spidey?), too many things to think about that(partially the reason why i created this thread). E4M8, maybe a new hardcore boss :P. As for map30, im envisioning it for my first map ;)

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E3M8 actually has a good design. It's a big arena with corners where you're easily trapped in spiderdemon's sight, and the ammo is just enough to kill it. The map is specially designed for a hitscanning boss. How to improve it, then? Maybe put a stronger boss in it, with more ammo to compensate. It also makes a pretty good map to test custom monsters in Doom 1.

 

E4M8 has quite an epic progression towards a creepy final boss ("Unto the Cruel", yeah). There's quite a heavy guard made of lots of barons of hell to stop you, and the huge stash of goodies in the pool is a good indication you're gonna face an epic encounter. I like the change of colours in the final arena too. Unfortunately, the spiderdemon arena is inferior to the one from E3M8, as you get plenty of cover. It feels more like a gateway to Doom 2 than a real ending. I think a better final boss is a flying super-archvile that can easily escape through any of the openings in that area.

 

MAP30 is okay for what it is. Graphically it fits just fine with its previous map, "The Living End".

 

BTW, making MAP30 the first map is a fitting start for a direct Doom 2 sequel. Go for it.

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2 minutes ago, printz said:

Unfortunately, the spiderdemon arena is inferior to the one from E3M8, as you get plenty of cover. It feels more like a gateway to Doom 2 than a real ending. I think a better final boss is a flying super-archvile that can easily escape through any of the openings in that area.

 

Oh yea B)

Make that happen pls

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E3M8 Seemed kinda scary back when I first played it. SMMs can really chunk away your health, and back then I wasn't particularly keen on just holding down the PR and hoping for pain states to kick in and save my arse. To id's credit: They have been smart enough not to put a BFG into that map, which was a good move, even it didn't elevate the map a lot, all things considered.

 

I'm not sure how I would improve the fight with the SMM without making use of mechanisms that will push people around, to be honest. I guess using crushers, or lowering floor into lava and such might help with taking away some of the control players have in "DIS", and it would work in vanilla formats as well. So yeah, I'd go with environmental hazards to improve the fight, because SMMs are somewhat prone to infighting, which is why I'd prefer to do something that won't end up working in the player's favour at any length. I hear platforming over inescapeable pits is quite nice. ;-)

 

 

E4M8 isn't that much better as far as the fight is considered, but at least it resembles more of an actual map than "DIS" does.

 

Not sure what I'd do here, but I suppose in this case it might be feasible to take the concept of having a map lead up to the fight a bit further and make it a bit more punishing overall, so that once you reach the SMM you really gotta be careful not to get snuffed out.

 

 

D2M30 is cool by virtue of concept, but I don't feel like it plays particularly well. Part of the reason I feel that way is probably that the sequence required to get damage in on the IOS is very simple and therefore sort of bland, since it starts in a totally empty room and does not require any sort of finesse up until you do the rocketing, and even that doesn't feel very elaborate, IMO.

 

Making it more interesting would involve taking "spare time" away from the player, if I were to do it. Also seems pretty "meh" that you can kill that thing with just 2 rockets if your placement is good, that is one of the bigger issues with the fight. So basically I'd try and make it more time consuming to lower the lift which people need to catch, make the IOS more "durable" by way of increasing its distance to the walls behind/around it. And certainly I'd make the area in which the fight takes place a bit more "complex" while also placing monsters there in important positions.

 

Not necessarily an outburst of creativity on my end here, but those are the things that came to mind right away.

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i would put more evil eyes and grey trees in all those maps

 

for map30 you can make it get out of control by putting one of those hell revealed-style stack teleporters on top of the rocket platform so that you have to clear it of enemies before you use it - maybe an arch vile starts on the platform and once it dies there becomes room for three arachnotrons to appear one after another, and after that a cybie!

 

then people would complain about that map for a totally different reason teehee

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I actually like E4M8 as it is, except for the damn Spiderdemon.  I'd increase her health points (at least double, maybe triple), and perhaps make her immune to the BFG's invisible rays.  I suck at Doom, but I still beat E3M8 on my first try in about 20 seconds.

 

I'd prefer just about anything to the IoS.  It might have been neat if you had to just survive against it for 5 minutes before the real boss showed up or something like that, but otherwise, riding a lift and shooting a wall at just the right time isn't my idea of fun.

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52 minutes ago, yakfak said:

for map30 you can make it get out of control by putting one of those hell revealed-style stack teleporters on top of the rocket platform so that you have to clear it of enemies before you use it - maybe an arch vile starts on the platform and once it dies there becomes room for three arachnotrons to appear one after another, and after that a cybie!

Personally, I don't like this idea because I'm not that good a player. That being said, I like the concept of putting one of the spawn spots on top of the rocket platform, particularly for UV and NM. A cyberdemon spawning on top of the platform is a bit over the top, but having an enemy start there, with other enemies possibly following, sounds like something that better players looking for a challenge might appreciate.

 

Although, two things:

 

1. An arch-vile spawning on top of a pile of dead monsters would suck.

2. Being tele-fragged by a zombieman (for example), while lining up to fire your last rocket, would royally suck.

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I hated the Icon of Sin, and even worse how every megawad feels the need to shoehorn in that concept as a finale. I can't count how many times I finished the penultimate map and then just ended the run there.

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I think Icon of Sin needed a longer (and quieter) warm up before you see the 'final boss', due to the music building up. Could've been more creepy.

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I won't say that I didn't enjoy E3M8 and E4M8. What I didn't like, however, was that the spider mastermind was too underwhelming as the final boss of the game. Sure, it does look cool. But I would buff it with more health, more than a cyberdemon at least, faster movement speed, and lesser pain chance.

 

For Icon of Sin, I'd make some various phases, instead of a single stage with cube-spitting giant face until the end. I'd even make the monster spawner as a vulnerable turret, instead of invisible annoyance. The final phase greets the player with ridiculously overpowered boss monster that can fly around 64 units per second, while it can spit fireballs all over the place.

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E3M8 is great when played from pistol start - a bit easy now after playing for 20 years, of course. But the design is pretty good IMHO.

E4M8 is great - I love Shawn's maps, as they feel quite different from other iwad maps. I wouldn't have this one any other way.

MAP30 - well, this one was never really good, to be honest. The "boss wall" itself is cool enough, but the layout is not. Lifts and poision, bleh. I think my favourite "classic styled" Icon map from the 90's would be MAP30 of Memento Mori II, except for all the monsters who telefrag each other. But Doom 2 should really have had a new "normal" boss instead of the stupid spawner/shoot a rocket into a hole combo. Like some kind of big, flying, terrifying bastard, as antaters031 kinda suggests.

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Always liked E3M8, was a good ending for me. Always thought the SMM was a weaker boss than the cyberdemon thou, but then again playing with only a keyboard didn't really help!!

 

Map30 - Never liked it as an ending tbh, had more fun on god mode blasting hordes for ages in my youth.

 

E4M8, I've probably only played it the once so cant really comment, as I don't remember enough about it. 

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Posted (edited)

If you play continuously, E3M8 is probably most stupid map of UDoom. But for pistol-starters this map turns to interesting and unique challenge.

About E4M8 I think last arena should be bigger and contains more monsters and some snipers up above (also with door closing behind player to prevent him for camping).

I'm not against IoS maps, but only if they are short. As example TNT MAP30 is a hell of a drag.
 

2 hours ago, Pegleg said:

2. Being tele-fragged by a zombieman (for example), while lining up to fire your last rocket, would royally suck.


Actually Icon of Sin does not spawning Zombiemen 😉

Edited by riderr3

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I actually like e3m8 to some degree, just so long as you start it from scratch. Ammo's tight and you have a constant hitscan hail bearing down on you frequently. Could be more interesting, but its nicer than e2m8 at least. I don't remember much of e4m8 which kind of indicates that it was uninteresting to me, and fuck map30. id was really creative with Doom 2 in many ways, but I just find the IoS frustrating rather than interesting. I kind of liked D2TWID's take on the IoS (at least I think it was d2twid? its been a while since I played that) where the game positions you correctly but instead has a different timing aspect to it.

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My only problem with both final boss fights in that they are underwhelming. There has not been a single time where I couldn't obliterate the MM with a single point blank BFG shot, what kind of "boss" is this lol. At first rwdpa pointed out this was due to some ports increasing this chance dramatically, and yet, even in other ports I have the same experience, I guess I'm just good at killing MMs then, the only exceptions to this were wads with a different take on the battle, such as DTWID where I can't get anywhere close to the MM.

 

E3M8 is also not challenging at all, it's a simple arena and my fight there usually ends there in less than 20 seconds since all I do is coming out from the starting area, wait for the MM come closer, come out from behind a corner and and blast it to pieces. Game over. Despite this, I still like the fight and idea in itself, exactly because it's short, doesn't drag on, and has no bs going on just to artificially increase the difficulty, so beside adding some sort of obstacles to make it more difficult, I guess it's ok at the end of the day. E4M8 is more difficult because you first have to reach the MM by going through a number of sections before, and the map itself was ok-ish, but once you reach the MM it becomes underwhelming once again. I suppose the MM just doesn't really work as a final boss.

 

MAP30 in Doom 2 is fucking garbage, it's the worst possible boss fight, on par with MAP30 from TNT (if my rockets go into the enemies below I break something), the very idea of climbing an elevator to reach the mind of the Icon of Sin is laughable and annoying at the same time, not to mention that it's very slow, and you might still miss the head if you don't fire before you reach the very top. It's just tedious and not enjoyable at all. Plutonia did this much, much better since the elevator was significantly shorter and the environment was better designed and interesting to see in action, along other MAP30s from various wads I've played until now which do more justice to the Icon of Sin concept than Doom 2 and TNT did.

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E3M8 was one of the few maps that I explored thoroughly years later of having played it for the first time. Back then, I didn't know how to run or strafe, so before the boss it was that cacodemon that always came into the corridor. Then, it was a matter of spamming ammo to the spider's head until it died, or I died because at that time the concept of hitscan was unknown to me. There was no opinion about the map, other than "scary boss".

 

Nowadays, I find it as a standard boss map, it's still somehow easy on a pistol start, but not easier than the previous boss maps. Contrary to E2M8, the boss monster has the advantage of the terrain with almost no obstacles, so the spider is always there and can peek you at any distance. That is good point for the map itself, and I don't think that I would change anything of it, maybe the starting point, with some gore textures, to make it more mysterious from the beginning, that's something that E2M8 did well. If I had to recreate it to nowadays standards, there would be a lot of hazards before the final encounter, but the spider would be a constant presence... About the monster, a few personal changes to make its usage more versatile (less pain chance and radius is a BIG plus trust me, and inability to damage other spiders while remaining hitscanner, though that's not possible in reality), but the creator thought about her for that map in specific, and it works there.

 

E4M8 seems like a fitting random map, I don't have too many memories about it, other than the finale where I ignored the east and west wings and only focused on the spider. For an ending to the fourth episode is a bit underwhelming, you are way overpowered, no hazards (most E4 maps force you interact on damaging lava), and the final boss cannot come closer due to the pillars. I'd simply eliminate half of the resources given, that includes the BFG, make the final room so it you have to press a few switches first in the sides. Those switches will turn the arena into lava, a lock-in, some tiny platforms to stay "safe", some barons and the slightly modified spider I mentioned before. A secret with some cell ammo somewhere too, since it's the iwad. 

 

MAP30, I don't know, something like SoD's last map, or D2INO's gimmick was at least interesting, but honestly anything that has to do with an IoS is already a downside from my point of view. Something that spawns random monsters is an unique feature (therefore, pain elementals matter), if it was a huge monster that had that ability, plus other attack patterns like the Maulotaur, maybe I'd enjoy fighting it. The fact that you are forced to be fast, to depend on a lift, on the type of monsters that are spawned in (no archviles, no PEs), and to time your rockets in order to insert them into the rectangle, is not a combination I personally will ever find positive. Map 30 has always been frustrating, reason why I'd never create an IoS map myself where any of the original iwad factors I mentioned before are key to win.

 

@Agent6 I read that is possible to one-shot a cyberdemon in ZDoom, not sure if it's true. Whatever, it comes to think that it isn't the monster but the BFG being naturally overpowered for any lonely enemy under 4000 HP, assuming you're good at using it. If you're using ZDoom (which I think you are), chances of killing spiderdemons in one shot are vastly higher than in vanilla-based ports. 

Edited by galileo31dos01

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52 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

maybe the starting point, with some gore textures, to make it more mysterious from the beginning, that's something that E2M8 did well.

The sudden tekwall corridor and that strange skintek structure in the middle makes me imagine that spiderdemons are actual aliens who took control over hell. I'd love to see megawads based around this idea, i.e. spiderdemons, arachnotrons and possible other bionic monsters being aliens, ranking above the demons, and the episodes may be tiered as "human world" -> "hell" -> "spiderdemon world".

 

An idea if you're making a megawad or episode with a spiderdemon final boss is to think about it as an intelligent but physically weak commander. Design the last level as an elaborate trap set against the player, with the spiderdemon itself appearing only at the very end.

Edited by printz

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1 hour ago, galileo31dos01 said:

 

@Agent6 I read that is possible to one-shot a cyberdemon in ZDoom, not sure if it's true. Whatever, it comes to think that it isn't the monster but the BFG being naturally overpowered for any lonely enemy under 4000 HP, assuming you're good at using it. If you're using ZDoom (which I think you are), chances of killing spiderdemons in one shot are vastly higher than in vanilla-based ports. 

 

I was, still am, but lately used PrBoom+ the most for playing Doom and wads and it's the same story there. I guess I'm just good at killing MM in this case. One shooting Cyberdemons though is something I've never heard of, or experienced for myself, that sounds rather extreme. It's annoying that I can't find an actual list of gameplay and enemy changes, the only lists I could find are about the features which is not helpful at all in this case.

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For all the hate it gets, E3M8 is pretty legit from a pistol start, as long as Spidie doesn't get trapped inside of a Baron.  Getting the ammo you need requires some bold dashes around the outside, where you're totally exposed.  It's by far the best playing of the boss levels.

 

E4M8 is just poor.

 

As far as Map30 goes, I like the idea of "a boss that keeps spawning stuff while you try to solve a puzzle to shoot it", but I really hate the "try to time your rockets while riding the lift" thing.  I kind of wish it was more complicated to raise the platform but the timing aspect wasn't necessary.

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IMO E4M8 should have had an entirely new boss, and the Spidey should have had more health.

 

E2M8 was great, and MAP30 was just a chore.

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I think that those levels are good if they are put in the context that it's the first time(s) you play Doom and you encounter them, nowadays they sort of lost their magic. E3M8, and E2M8 (it's basically the same thing), perhaps just needed a boss that it's more engaging to fight. E1M8 despite suffering from the same problem it's the best boss level with its scenic stuff that happens. Thought I would say that E4M8 is the one that holds better compared to others since it has more substance from what i recall of it. MAP30 only had the misfortune of beign abused too much so almost no-one can bear IoS levels now.

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E3M8 is fun from a pistol start. On continuous, it turns into a joke if you have a few cells on you.

 

E4M8 has an enjoyable build up. Although by then, people realized that the SMM is extremely weak without ammo starvation or back-up. So you get a showdown with a bunch of other demons thrown in for good measure.

 

MAP30 is a cool concept poorly executed. That's all it is...

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E3M8: On the way DOOM normally works, you'll probably have a BFG and be able to kill it a few shots normally. A more skilled player would easily pull off a "BFG-hug" and kill it in just one shot. A better boss here would have been it's "upgrade"  - the Spider Demolisher. This custom critter comes with twice the HP, twice the chainguns, and it's very own BFG. BFG-hugging it will get you killed rather than it.

 

E4M8: See E3M8.

 

Map30: I personally enjoy some Map30s (think Unholy Realms, Speed of Doom, Shaitan's Luck etc.), but not the original. The Icon of Sin is a "timed-puzzle" boss, which means you have a limited time to figure out what to do and to do it before you are overwhelmed and die (which happened to me when I was little). 

 

Fast forward to 2018: Spiderdemons and Cyberdemons are more like less common regular enemies to me because I see multiple instances in a lot of regular maps. In many cases, a well placed Revenant or Archvile will be a way bigger threat. The Icon Of Sin however, is still used as a boss exclusively, if at all.

 

I like boss fights, and so I prefer a custom monster or a decent Icon of Sin.

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About map 30, I wanna see a proper walking, menacing and still-retained-spawning-abilities icon of sin with tons of health rather than shooting a wall.

In DIS, pistol start is a fair challenge, even if you need to rely on infighting...

Unto the Cruel was just a buildup map which you kill the mom spider if you find the secret BFG behind her...not much of a challenge despiting the cramped area tbh.

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2 hours ago, leodoom85 said:

About map 30, I wanna see a proper walking, menacing and still-retained-spawning-abilities icon of sin with tons of health rather than shooting a wall.

In DIS, pistol start is a fair challenge, even if you need to rely on infighting...

Unto the Cruel was just a buildup map which you kill the mom spider if you find the secret BFG behind her...not much of a challenge despiting the cramped area tbh.

 

What if the boss was more like SGT Mark IV's version of the IoS?It doesn't move - but let's just say it's a lot more menacing.

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1 hour ago, Pure Hellspawn said:

 

What if the boss was more like SGT Mark IV's version of the IoS?It doesn't move - but let's just say it's a lot more menacing.

No. It's still a sort of wall. It needs more life.

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On 12.3.2018 at 9:32 PM, printz said:

The sudden tekwall corridor and that strange skintek structure in the middle makes me imagine that spiderdemons are actual aliens who took control over hell. I'd love to see megawads based around this idea, i.e. spiderdemons, arachnotrons and possible other bionic monsters being aliens, ranking above the demons, and the episodes may be tiered as "human world" -> "hell" -> "spiderdemon world".

 

An idea if you're making a megawad or episode with a spiderdemon final boss is to think about it as an intelligent but physically weak commander. Design the last level as an elaborate trap set against the player, with the spiderdemon itself appearing only at the very end.

I'm just happy that someone else thought up the SMM is an alien theory. But onto the maps, E3M8 is fun, but BFG is way too easy to get in ep3, the  map was clearly designed for pistol start. E4M8 is E3M8 but this time poor Mastermind isn't challenging even from pistol start, really, the boss room is the most underwhelming in classic Doom, could have at least have the bad spider in a larger room where she can chew your health, like Cybie in his second Episode 4 appearance. That reminds me that I found e3m8 to be more difficult than e2m8 on first try.

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I probably would've put some medikits into the start of E3M8. I always have a less-than-ideal amount of health after struggling through E3M7 and there's almost no health pickups in E3M8.

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