UT2K3 vs DOOM3 Physics

[uniQ]

Hi!

Since yesterday we all have the chance to examine Epic's latest fps: UT2K3 Demo. I _really_ dislike UT2K3 but i couldn't resist to check out its gfx, model(s) and PHYSICS engine. The later one is imho impressive. I set up a bot only game just to watch that incredible Karma engine combined wt skeletal(?right?) animation in action. One time a bot died and sunk down to his knees with the body leaning backwards then he was shot again and he fell finally to the floor - this looked very authentic. I couldnt find "other" environment interactions in the demo, e.g. nothing that you can bounce around except of dead bodys. But this is not necessary for an multiplayer fps. U2 will have this for sure.
But the point of my thread is: will Doom3 have the equal quality of real life physics as the Karma engine has? The shaky cam Doom3 flick showed some evidence that doom3 physics will do well but hey - the Karma (Maths) engine was developed externally by one relativly huge team and Doom3's physics engine is mainly done be one person (?right?).

What's your opinion on that?

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Btw (my personal POV toward UT2K3): the character movement/animation of UT2K3 is very impressive. I had never seen before such a life like animation except in the doom3 leaked movie! No ice scating badly animated models like in UT. Over all I can say that this game LOOKS beautiful but its gameplay has not been improved/changed - it sucks like UT did. imho Q3(Q2) is still king of the hill if it comes to a _multiplayer_ fps engine.
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[Naked Snake]

Yeah, I got killed on some steps and I was tumbling down and I was like "WHOA! THAT WAS COOL!"

[Shaviro]

So far the Doom 3 physics are better.

[uniQ]

Shaviro said:

So far the Doom 3 physics are better.

By what evidence?
The shootable stuff on the shelves and the bouncing lightbulbs?

[Shaviro]

uniQ said:

By what evidence?
The shootable stuff on the shelves and the bouncing lightbulbs?

Everything in the gameplay video.

[uniQ]

hmmm...did you played some UT2K3? I don't think that the gameplay movie of d3 featured such a correct body-falling/flying-around animations like UT2K3. But I must admit I had not the chance to see the quakecon in game movie :( maybe this one was more impressive then the fat zombie falling down the stairs scene.

maybe id will release a nice HQ movie around xmas. MUST HAVE THIS GAME/ MUST KILL...argh. brain desease!

[Dslyecxi]

Well.. the UT2K3 stuff is just gimicky, IMO. It looks nice, yeah. I saw a few things that were impressive.. but for the most part everyone dies the same, they just flop around a little on the way down. I mean, really.. almost every single body will end up coming to rest in the exact same posture 90% of the time. =/

The D3 stuff interests me due to the fact that it doesn't just apply to characters/monsters.. UT2K3 is just a nice gimmick that makes people go "WOW!" but doesn't really add a whole hell of a lot to the game. It's appreciated, but it certainly isn't that big of a deal.

[Zaldron]

In the end, they will look remarkably similar, only because there aren't many things you can call "realistic physics" out there.

[Dslyecxi]

An important thing to keep in mind when you're thinking about the fact that the Math (Karma) engine was made by a ton of people whereas the D3 one was coded by a single person is that the scope of the two is entirely different. The D3 physics don't deal with wind, water, cloth, etc, whereas the Math Engine (as you can see by various tech demos) has considerable power in those areas.
Anyhow.. just something to consider.

[Wobbo]

uniQ said:

hmmm...did you played some UT2K3? I don't think that the gameplay movie of d3 featured such a correct body-falling/flying-around animations like UT2K3. But I must admit I had not the chance to see the quakecon in game movie :( maybe this one was more impressive then the fat zombie falling down the stairs scene.

Yeah the quakecon ingame movie di show very impressive physics, suff bouced around when shot, and bodies tumblem SICKENINGLY realistically

[999cop]

A much more realistically physical or breathtaking-looking feature (such as splintering guts in Doom and Quake3; however, it is not very realistic) to me is to present blood dripping out of the character's mouth and body shiver to silence and eyes slowly close to death.

[nxn]

I didn't watch the video in a a while, but I wouldn't call the physics realistic. I remember when that zombie got shot in the legs from the side, if I recall correctly he just fell back as if he got shot in the back of his legs or the front of his upper body. Hey, they can't win them all.

[uniQ]

one question (dunno if this one is off topic here but it deals a lot with animation):

does anyone know how the facial animations are done/triggered in the beginning of the totally illegal game play movie. are such animations pre-calculated/scripted or is this done by a mathematical schema? the same happens with the scientists coat - but this could be done by a physics engine.

I played some ut2k3 again and i can verify that the death-animations are 90% the same. it was my first impression from yesterday that i tended to prefer the karma engine over the doom3's own one. :)

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dear lovely folks of id sw (maybe some sick id guy will read this forum too?!?): please oh please give us some hq gameplay movie to analyze. maybe as a xmas present? or wait: as a thanksgiving present. i know u all like thanksgiving at id. come on!
(just watching pr0n gets indeed boring for 8 months :))
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[dsm]

uniQ said:

dear lovely folks of id sw (maybe some sick id guy will read this forum too?!?): please oh please give us some hq gameplay movie to analyze. maybe as a xmas present? or wait: as a thanksgiving present. i know u all like thanksgiving at id. come on!
(just watching pr0n gets indeed boring for 8 months :))
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Why?
So that we can get all the surprises spoiled before Doom 3 comes out?
id have already shown more than I had ever wanted them to show off of Doom 3 - I could go on and on analyzing the E3 presentation from start to finish over and over again.

I don't want id to show us anything more before they release the test (my computer probably won't be able to run the test so I won't be able to d/l - but some of YOU can d/l it and drool over it).

[Ultimate Demon]

"I played some ut2k3 again and i can verify that the death-animations are 90% the same. it was my first impression from yesterday that i tended to prefer the karma engine over the doom3's own one. :)"

90% the same animations? I think that they die more realistic than all the other games out now..

[uniQ]

Ultimate Demon said:

90% the same animations? I think that they die more realistic than all the other games out now..

yes. the ut2k3's physics engine IS the most realistic one until now. but when u observe some bot only match the bots death animations are quite the same over and over. it's like Dslyecxi said.

dsm said:

Why?
So that we can get all the surprises spoiled before Doom 3 comes out?
id have already shown more than I had ever wanted them to show off of Doom 3 - I could go on and on analyzing the E3 presentation from start to finish over and over again.

I don't want id to show us anything more before they release the test (my computer probably won't be able to run the test so I won't be able to d/l - but some of YOU can d/l it and drool over it).

i understand your POV. i agree with you that you don't want id to spoil more game content. the only things i'd like to see in hq is the gameplay movie i've already seen before - and that's nothing new to me - just more detailed. maybe some additional physics/animation presentation would be nice. E.g. just a big room and some doom guys showing off weird stuff. :)
as a test/demo i would only wish a rather small "level" (maybe the first few rooms of the game - this will make everbody go for more) with one or two weapons and only one or two already seen types of enemys. and i wouldn't call it a test because i don't think id will make a "test" version this time (call it 6th sense). nothing has to be testet in public like it has to be done in q3. something like the leaked IHV test from q3 would be nice :) levels that wont appear in the release version.

[dsm]

Ah ok.
Since I already have seen the leaked vid once, I probably won't download a higher quality one released by id themselves, simply because I know what's basically in it - but it'd be nice for you people.

[EVIL]

I argee with ultimate demon and uniQ, the UT2003 psychics are the most advanced of any game I have seen until now.. but I am sure doom 3 wil blow them away

the best example of death in ut2003 demo I have seen was in the bombing run level.. where you have a big hole with pipes.. and when you fall in it you tumble down hitting the pipes.. it looks amazing

[Tetzlaff]

Dslyecxi said:

for the most part everyone dies the same, they just flop around a little on the way down. I mean, really.. almost every single body will end up coming to rest in the exact same posture 90% of the time.

The coolest way to do death animations would be combining traditional scripted death animations with the new physic engine "rag doll" behaviour. It could start with a dramatic, character-specific dying animation, and then switch over to the rag doll behaviour when the body finally hits the ground.

[Kinsie]

Try playing UT2003 with the Lowgrav mutator on. It gives an example of what the physics are best at... I paticularly like the bone cracking noises in UT, nice touch.

[AirRaid]

HAMMER-STROKE said:

the best example of death in ut2003 demo I have seen was in the bombing run level.. where you have a big hole with pipes.. and when you fall in it you tumble down hitting the pipes.. it looks amazing

Yea, that part 0wnz. It's cool how you can get caught hanging on one of the pipes too, if you hit it right. If you're observing a bot only match, Surely the death amins would be remarkably similar because the bots tend to always hit in the same places? And therefore you wouldn't see all the possible anims... just a thought.

[Kinsie]

My guy got one of those pipes between the legs as he fell... I'll admit, I winced.

[Ultimate Demon]

Trasher][ said:
My guy got one of those pipes between the legs as he fell... I'll admit, I winced.

you too? thats realistic!

[nxn]

lmao, that's kick ass, I need to get a download manager to download it now.

[Disorder]

I'm very impressed by UT2003's physics-system.
I once died next to a staircase and I tumbled down after a second explosion blew my down the stairs. It looks amazing, it really does. So, does Doom III have similar physics or what?

[EVIL]

doom3 has better psychics..

[dsm]

HAMMER-STROKE said:

doom3 has better psychics..

We need...EXAMPLES.. :-P

[Shaviro]

Trasher][ said:
My guy got one of those pipes between the legs as he fell... I'll admit, I winced.

I tried that as well. He never left that posture...oowww. What a cruel way to die :P

[doomedout]

I also downloaded ut2003 and frankly im very very very impressed particularily with three things, the physics engine which is mind blowing to say the least, the level design which is so immersive and finally the weapons...BRING IT ON as a gamer i can only be happy with such a development, however to compare it to doom3 will be highly premature because we dont know jackshit bout both games yet...one is a demo and the other we cannot really tell...although ut2003 will probably not have that many changes

Dont worry hardcore doom fans...doom 3 will kick ass...you guys seem quite despondant in this post

and yes ut2003 ROCKS...funny thing is it reminds me of quake 3 HAHAHAHAHAHHA

[doomedout]

I meant doom3 will own NOT BLOW...SORRY DUDES

:(