DeePsea 11.2 Released

Well, unlike you I prefer to do other things than edit doomlevels 8 hours a day.

Yes, the sector references would stay the same. Personally, that is GREAT. What if I don't want the sector references to change? what if I want to make a vanilla doom hack like a invisible bridge? Now youre gonna say that it's a toggelable option in your great superior editor. as I've said before. I don't like the editor to do things for me, it'll only result in it fucking up at times. making me angry. So what if I have to draw a checkbox around a few lines to manually change the sector reference? I don't mind, that's just the way I want it. 100% control.

About that comment to Julian, where you were saying I was dead set in my ways. Well I agree. I'm dead set in my way, I like Deth and I want to use Deth, and I don't want to use your editor. So you can stop with what you've been doing all day, wich is trying to convince me that Deepsea is the only reasonable choice, and that Deth is a obsolete dinosaur.

Because I know, from experience, that Deth, is a DAMNED GOOD editor.

It was interesting to see how you took my earlier post to mean "Maybe I am as stupid as you depict me".

What an odd thing to write.

That, my friend, is 100% a perception by yourself. Nowhere did I imply anything of the sort.

I definitly think we highly disagree on what an argument is. At least I hope you don't mix arguments and opinions.

You seem to have difficulties understanding I am attacking the form of what you say, not the person. I REPEAT: NOT THE PERSON. Even if you're pushing me into a flame war, being more and more arrogant, asking for apologies after having insulted me a very very mean way.

Now, read me well and try not to put words in my mouth: if I posted (knowing I hardly post on DW), it is because I think DeepSea is a very important software in the DOOM community. And I can't stand to see how flamed it gets just because of the posts you make. Just because of the way they are PERCEPTED.

You obviously know a lot about rethoric, but, for once, I'd be happy you use your COMUNICATION skills. And I know you're clever and I know you have those skills. I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

Now I tried to explain you what was obviously outrageous for people in your posts: mainly pretention and bad faith. You can't face the fact you write pretentious and biased statements? I'm not surprised, because as I think you are clever, I feel confident you would never make such posts if you knew how they get received.

All you had to reply was: 'this is a personal attack, you must apologize'.
I WON'T.

If you wanna continue that way, it is your deal and there is nothing I can do about it. But for god sake, stop backing off with sentences like 'I speak frankly about subject? And you don't like it?' because this is obviously BAD FAITH & a VERY harsh personal attack. As if I was attacking your opinions, I NEVER DID.

I suppose you will answer to this post and I suppose you will closely select what you'll be able to rethorically turn to your advantage, bringing more hate in this thread and more enemies against DeepSea, as i don't think I am the only one to be hurt, and I saud HURT, by your posts here.

Now, you could attack me again, saying I have no right to 'judge' you. Whereas you have the right to 'speak frankly' (how subtle!), and hence, the right to insult me.

Whatever happens, I WILL NOT ANSWER YOU. I have done what I consider I had to. I have tried to warn you about the prejudice you make to your own software, which is, I repeat, a great one, and to your reputation (and I always hate to see someone clever getting a bad reputation).

Just now I am terribly disapointed as our mail exchanges had always been kind and constructive. I'm afraid those blue rectangles don't suit you well.

This is not that big a deal. Just a discussion / explanation ..

I didn't edit 8hrs/day, I was coding AND editing.. (see what I wrote)

You know that MOST of the time (as in the linedef merging argument) you DO NOT want the references the same. The goal is to do what is USUALLY desired, not the exception.

Almost always<g> nothing is done for you that you didn't need done. I've been through this "do things for me" argument so many times(it's a favorite of Waded users too).

I used to edit with DEU and know exactly how it works. You have to make vertices, you have to make linedefs and you have to assign a sector. Then you almost always end up tinkering with the sector references because they are wrong.

This "extra" work is not a big deal? OK, but doing it over and over takes time, that's my only comment.

As far as for 100% control - That's similar to a person insisting a handsaw is the way to build a house because of all this "control". They both can accomplish the end result, one is just faster.

I'm not telling you to use DeePsea. I said "each to their own". Saying so would be pointless - the whole thing started with you claiming Deth has no bugs:)

Flynn got mad at me in an argument similar to this. I was arguing with someone else, but somehow he took it very personally that refusing to budge from DEU made one old before ones time:)

Tsk tsk. Not a nice reply and totally off base. Somehow it's ok for you to attack but I can't show how your comments are not very nice and drift 100% into personal areas (every single post).

I truly think you don't understand what I'm writing. Opinions are a dime a dozen.

hey deepteam what happens to my free deep?

I've been busy (can't you tell). I explained all that in a thread.

How about this one? You're all fools and I'm just gonna keeping using WadAuthor, because I've had no problems with it since I began using it.. that's right not ONE that hasn't been my own fault... you know, DeepTeam's problem is that he can never be wrong.. he always has an answer for something... and personally, I don't care for his "always right" attitude, but hey, that's just me.

The people of Deepteam have gone through time and patience to make a good editor to satifiy all the Doom mappers out there. This editor is far better than the old-DOS deth, deu, dck and so on. If sbsoftware charged the editor for 50 bucks I'd still buy it.

I hate DOS programs and Deepteam have solved the solution of the best win9x Doom editor out there.

haha it took you 1 week to do that kaboom.wad? I've seen people do better stuff in 100 mins...

Well, I guess I should stop now before your mad talking skills kill me.

DETH works in windows, I use it every day, no problems

Something tells me that if Julian was ever on trial for something, he'd accuse the prosecution of verbally attacking him...

Foe a nice guy he talks a lot of shit, I dont think Ive ever read so much crap, its not exactly "how to win friends and influence people"

Sorry Fishy, I thought you were talking about that deepteam asshole.

FYI Jim Flynn isn't active in the Doom community anymore, so I doubt you've ever talked to him. Jim Flynn is one of those who made Deth. I'm telling you this incase you thought Jim Flynn = Deepteam. If you didn't, I dunno what you meant. Cause I know that Jim Flynn was/is a nice guy.

BTW Deepteam: You call that a complete level? (Kaboom) I downloaded it to see what you were talking about all the time. I agree with Tarin.

It always makes me laugh when people use the argument "but I prefer being in control" when explaining why they prefer some editor over Deep.

Other than swapping between vertex and linedef based editing, you can change virtually any aspect of how Deep handles the level building process via the many options.

Which allows you more control? An editor such as Deep, where you can do anything you like, using almost any method you like (but you may *shock! horror!* actually have to look up what a few things do) or editors such as DEU and Wadauthor which are(somewhat ironically) just as "stuck in their ways" as some of the people who use them seem to be.

Nick: I prefer to have to switch between the modes. If I try to select a really small sector or linedef I don't want to struggle to make the editor not pay attention to the nearby sector/linedef. I don't know how Deepteam can claim he knows Deth inside out and then also claim that you HAVE to build a sector step by step with it. Like I said before. Just hit F9 and you have a list of options. Default is set on create square. and I don't either see how he can come from telling people about a bug in deth (wich btw never/hardly ever seem to occur) to trashing the editor of many doomers choice. Specially calling it crap/slow since it's neither. Yes it's not the beginners choice exactly. It takes it's fair share of time to get familiar with. Just don't tell me that it's a bad editor cause you don't like it.

I prefer my editor (wadauthor) because:

1. It's paid for. I got it when I purchased the 3d Alchemy Book a while back.
It represents all the monetary investment I'm willing to make for a doom level editor.

2. I've mastered it. I can do anything within the limits of my own creativity and abiltiy using it. Another editor, no matter how good, will not make it so I'm better at making Doom levels. No way, no how. Maybe a little easier, or faster (maybe). Not better

3. Wadauthor's method for constructing levels just makes sense to me. It's suited to the screwy way my brain works :)

I started off designed Doom levels just a few months after the full version of Doom 1 came out, using an extremely early version of DEU (v2.somethingorother I think), gradually making my way up to the last release (v5.25 GCC or whatever it was called).

Once Doom 2 came out, I switched to DDT. Most people will have never heard of it, but it's built off of DEU (this being the case, I didn't see the point in changing to DEU2 when that came out). It looked kinda weird 'caus the things were square instead of circular :)

BTW, whoever complained about lack of documentation in Deep for Strife obviously wasn't around in those days. Documentation in those days = zero (well, for those of us not on the 'net anyway). We had to learn it all by ourselves (well, other than linedef/sector types and so on). Perhaps you should try doing the same?

One thing I was growing sick of back then was the amount of times both DEU and DDT locked up (DOS remember, so you had to physically reboot your system) or destroyed my levels.

Then a few years ago I came across Deep (v7.somethingorother). I had of course previously tried other editors such as DoomCAD, Wadauthor and DETH, but at the time Deep seemed to be an extremely advanced DEU clone (with built in nodes builder to boot), so being accustomed to that editor I quickly warmed to it. However, I was forced to stick with DDT as I had no credit or debit card.

I kept playing around with the shareware versions though, and Deep has changed a lot in those few years since I first tried it. It's gotten even more powerful with each new version (too powerful for some people I guess), and eventually, around the time it switched from DOS to Windows, I finally managed to get a registered copy (by stealing my Dad's credit card number, no less :) ).

And you know what? In all the time since I first tried it, Deep has remained perhaps the easiest and quickest to use editor. Some of you are now thinking "err, right" or "wtf?!?", but trust me, once you learn the in's and out's, you'll be churning out whatever you want to in no time.

On a final note, when Boom first came out, I was using DETH in tandem with Deep to use the new linedef and sector types, and it was the same with ZETH when ZDoom became popular. And contrary to Ebola's experience, the damned things crashed all the frickin' time :(

No no, that's not what I mean by switching between the modes. Deep does have seperate modes for vertex, sector, linedef and thing editing.

I'm talking about the two methods of editing; vertex based (i.e. you individually insert the vertices, then have to build the lines between them), and linedef based (as you create the vertices, the linedefs are automatically built between the current vertex and the previous).

Deep can only do the latter, and not the former (afaik anyway), but as the former is a time consuming and utterly horrible method of building a level I couldn't care less.

I meant that deepteam guy. Im with you all the way. I have never looked back since using DETH, it was the natural move from DEU which is the editor I started with. As far as Im concerned its perfect, I couldnt think of anything it nedds to improve. I cant remember the last time I made a sector from vertices, he oviously never tried DETH and is just making it all up to sell his product to the newbies who read this.

<< he oviously never tried DETH and is just making it all up >>

Uh, perhaps you should reading his posts? He f**king reversed engined the code for christ-sakes?

"No, he's lying" you're probably going to say.

Then how, as once again he says, did he have these informed arguments with Jim Flynn, one of DETH's authors?

"He didn't, he's lying" you're now going to reply.

Well, don't. E-mail Jim Flynn and ask him yourself; unless his address has changed, it's jflynn@pacbell.net

Yeah I hear that.

Although that way to put out Vertices and then draw the lines isn't bad. contrary to what people seem to think. I use it most of the time. It's quite fast way for me to make a sector. Specially since I use another sector specs when I "Insert" the new sector, wich makes me only having to do little changes to the new sector.

Aargh! Gah! I just tried DETH for old time's sakes, and remembered that this is one of the editors I was talking about.

It's one of the the ones where you have to insert all the vertices and then manually connect them all. Ugh, how the hell can anyone build levels like this? Ick, urgh, bleurgh, etc :(

Nick: again I say. Hit F9 to create a sector.

Dmap (back in my 486 DOS days) was the best! Can't wait 'til it gets coded for Win98. But until then, WadAuthor is the best choice for messing up wads.

I didn't shell out $$$ for DooM. And I certainly am not going to shell out $$$ for DeePCrap.

Feels sort of nice to get that off my chESt. Love ya'all. Well, maybe some of ya'.

Who the hell cares? I mean really? The only reason the DeepSea guy even fucking cares that people like DETH or WA is because he's not getting money from them. So PLEASE, everyone just let everyone else use the editors they want to.

Just drop it. It's not like it really matters anyway...

SoM
Steven

Thanks for the support and thank you doubters about the facts.

Please email Flynn. Don't worry, he will remember - don't think he's still upset -although it was accidental for the reasons stated:)

Please don't rephrase what I wrote, but quote me exactly. Then get back here and write an apology:) Free copy of DeePsea to the first person that disputed my statements and acknowledges in the EDITOR forum that what I wrote was as it happened. (Give it to a friend).

You guys are probably going to think this is bs, but I was refreshing my memory on Deth and you now what happened? That's right, it locked the machine up solid. So poof went my last reply. Silly thing goes nuts when you scroll off the map - another bug they never fixed. They need to limit the scroll to the map edges. Why is that a problem? The math overflows.

Heck, I have LOTS and LOTS of improvements to DETH. Just check out the DOS DeeP and you'll see something very familiar yet strangely different.

I was checking out the F9 stuff. Basically a crappy prefab mode (ouch, but a spade is spade). If that's cool, then DeePsea's prefabs are exquisite. Both WA and DOOMCAD have way better prefab models too. I'd suggest WINDEU for you guys (for a comfort level), but that thing crashes way too much.

But what happened to all this "control" talk? Prefabs have NO control. It's funny how the argument shifts from one side to the other, depending on what one can't really reply to. It's not free, it's this, it's that. Such fun.

Laughing at the KABOOM flaming. Obviously they never d'ld it. What Julian calls "bad faith" - I have no clue what that means - and "pretention" is just plain confidence.

If you go back to about '95-96 you'll see the 1st release of DeeP - a total rewrite of DEU and what many years later, DETH copied. Yes, that's right, they copied DeeP. Like the texture feedback, the menus, commands, blah blah. Read the README.TXT in DeeP and you'll catch a glimpse of the past.

I was thinking about releasing the 6.x DOS DeeP as freeware, sort of an historical anniversary. Somehow I think people will still want me to answer questions:) That's keeping me back.

I don't "care" what one uses - never said I did (where's the meat -quote me). In fact I said exactly the opposite (it's down there - LOOK).

But I DO CARE when I read stuff that is just total b.s.

Like YOUR statement. Like the missie guy claiming the levels being screwed up (no details). Or the KABOOM flame (that was actually funny though). Or various other totally of-the-wall statements.

Somehow, I think if someone wrote misstatements about your work we'd never hear the end of it.

Some of this is just for fun. I admit enjoying a debate and showing how the statements can't logically be backed up. I get strange compliments - Julian gave me one below - usually because an argument goes my way so that supposedly makes me want them to "convert". Nope. Just a fun thing for me.

Lol, I always get a good laugh out of reading all of the crap in these. Every time I see a comments page that has 20 or more comments, I immediately know that people are flaming eachother. Let me just say one thing... Grow up! and if you apply with a nasty message to this one, let me say again... Grow up! :P