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    Doom 2, Faster Than a TV Dinner


    Linguica

    OK I lied a little, the Hungry Man Salisbury Steak only takes 14 minutes, meaning that if you want to wait for the latest UV speed record to finish you'll have to let it cool for an extra two seconds. The Doomworld forums' Adrian Danis aka RamboBones, who is obviously insane, has just released a completely built Doom 2 UV speedrun in 14:02, 35 seconds faster than the old record. And yes this is tool assisted and no it is not cheating so shut up.

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    14:02!? are you kidding? it takes me that long just to beat the first two levels if i even lived that long on that difficulty setting.

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    Fredrik said:

    I put on spaghetti and the demo did finish before I got to eat.

    O_o

    Did you try to cook it with the TV?

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    Mancubus II said:

    It depends on how the tools were used to judge it as cheating on a basic level (disregarding compet-n rules).


    Cheating means attempting to deceive people about how the run was made. :) Which RamboBones isn't doing, so it's definitely not cheating.

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    PR Boom runs the demo just fine. Most likely Boom and eternity may as well. There may even a couple of others like mbf or fusion that just might play it too.

    Your doom2.exe will likely play it as well.

    It is very cool!

    edit:typo

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    14 minutes? I haven't ever before seen a TV Dinner take that long. The fastest have been mere two minutes. :p

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    Schneelocke said:

    Cheating means attempting to deceive people about how the run was made. :) Which RamboBones isn't doing, so it's definitely not cheating.


    While he may not be deceiving people, he is cheating.

    dictionary.com said:

    v. intr.
    To violate rules deliberately, as in a game.


    Nevertheless, very impressive!

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    ultdoomer said:

    While he may not be deceiving people, he is cheating.

    What rule of the game did he violate? All a LMP does is play back a series of commands. It's impossible for a demo to violate the rules of Doom because a demo can't change the rules. Sure the demo was created in a highly irregular fashion but nothing about it cheats the game (except for permanent strafe50 which I am not even going to get into).

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    ultdoomer said:

    While he may not be deceiving people, he is cheating.


    No, he did not. You could just as well accuse Michael Schuhmacher of cheating because he uses a car while Asafa Powell doesn't. :)

    Seriously, think about it. You may say "the above example is rubbish since the 100 metres and formula 1 racing are totally different sports", but I maintain that regular speedrunning and (advanced) TAS-running are just as different. There's different rules that govern what you can do and different things you do to accomplish your goal; the only similarities are you're aiming for the fastest time (both 100 metre sprinters and formula 1 pilots do that, too) and that you're using the same underlying game (both 100 metre sprinting and formula 1 racing takes place on race tracks).

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    Linguica said:
    Sure the demo was created in a highly irregular fashion but nothing about it cheats the game (except for permanent strafe50 which I am not even going to get into).

    Permanent strafe50 has frequently been used in built demos, even in some of the old COMPET-N misc. demos made all those years ago (examples: Jon Rimmer's bt11-008 from 1999, Baum's bt01-005, and Sedlo's bt01-004 from 2000). Kai's seriously old built runs from 1996 didn't use strafe50 for turns, but for all other tics (equivalent to a perfect strafe50 mousedriver, or having a third hand and an extra joystick).

    And ultdoomer, please stop this "he's cheating" retardation.

    EDIT: dug up examples.

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    Kristian Ronge said:
    And ultdoomer, please stop this "he's cheating" retardation.

    Give him a break, it was mentioned on the head post. The cheating is in regard to the standard game (by using tools), not the demo format. I can cheat death with medicine (or supposedly also magic). One can say in the text file, for example, "keep in mind I've cheated in this demo using A, B, and C with X tool, and that's why it's so much faster (and uglier) than the compet-n records and whatnot; there idea here being simply to find the quickest demo time for the game in the v1.9 format, at all costs".

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    Cheat or not... I don't give a damn. There is no attempt to deceive and it gave me 14 minutes and 2 seconds of entertainment for nothing. And it is impressive.

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    Vegeta said:

    I don't want to let you know how ignorant I am, but what's a "tool assisted demo"?


    From the Doom Wiki:

    "Tool-assisted speedrunning (TAS) permits the player to use special utilities, programs, or gameplay options which are banned from Compet-N submissions. Such utilities tend to decrease the overall time required to complete a speedrun; as such, speed records set in tool-assisted demos are normally considered invalid for the purpose of establishing speedrun world records. Demos recorded using any source port are considered tool-assisted."

    Not quite true, though, or at least confusing. :P The time required to get a *specific* time decreases compared to the time that'd be required to get the same time in a regular speedrun, of course, but the time required to get a competitive time doesn't. A regular speedrunner might spend days or even weeks with attempt after attempt trying to get a close-to-perfect time for a certain run; but a TAS runner might just as well spend days or even weeks honing a *single* run to perfection.

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    Schneelocke quoted from the Wiki:
    "Tool-assisted speedrunning (TAS) permits the player to use special utilities, programs, or gameplay options which are banned from Compet-N submissions. "

    This is awkward and baised; it's not that it "permits" or "bans" anything, but that it uses tools ir hacks that have certain extended demo recording and editing capabilities not found in the game itself without any sort of modification on it (past novert and such). Maybe later I'll go to the wiki if no one else edits it.

    Not quite true, though, or at least confusing. :P

    You said why it is not confusing; it's obviously talking about the time needed to record the same times or tricks. Could it refer to anything else? Obviously anything perfected takes more time than something done carelessly. The whole description is differentiating TAS from standard recordings.

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    myk said:

    You said why it is not confusing; it's obviously talking about the time needed to record the same times or tricks. Could it refer to anything else? Obviously anything perfected takes more time than something done carelessly. The whole description is differentiating TAS from standard recordings.


    Of course it is, but it *does* say "[s]uch utilities tend to decrease the overall time required to complete a speedrun". To me, "completing a speedrun" means just that; not the time required to perform a certain glide or other trick (near-)flawlessly, but the time required to get something that won't be beaten in five minutes. :P

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    Schneelocke said:
    "completing a speedrun" means just that; not the time required to perform a certain glide or other trick (near-)flawlessly, but the time required to get something that won't be beaten in five minutes.

    What that means depends on the context, and it's taking about speed running. In any case, the whole paragraph could be rewritten. Perhaps the last sentence is the silliest of them all. A (normal) ZDoom demo, for example, is not TAS; it's just a ZDoom demo. I mean, what, ZDaemon's ZDOs are all TAS demos? Heh. If one or all of the players were to use a wall hack or an aim bot, then maybe (these hacks being the tools assisting them).

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    Yes, that wiki entry really isn't helpful at all. It would be better even if it said nothing at all.

    I'd like to clarify (since this seems a point of genuine confusion) that Built and TAS demos are two different things, just as TAS demos are wholly distinct from normally-recorded runs.

    A TAS demo is recorded by playing the game, in a standard Dooming environment, but using slow-motion and saves (and maybe additional sources of information, such as a monster health display, etc.) and thus the ability to try each segment as many times as you like until, for instance, you get the really big stroke of luck that you're seeking.

    A Built demo is constructed gametic by gametic. You don't necessarily record any of it by playing in a Doom engine at all. Obviously you'll need to play it back in a Doom engine in order to see whether what you're trying to a achieve has actually worked.

    The boundaries between Built and TAS can also become blurred if the two are used together to some degree. And there is also a distinction to be drawn between some of the newer TAS demos and the older ones, with the greater ease of construction and the ability to use strafe-50 automation and permanent strafe-50 (which previously was achievable only in Built runs). BTW, I'd like to clarify that I don't consider strafe-50 during turns to be legitimate in any context, and personally wouldn't use it in any TAS or Built runs that I made.

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    RamboBones' tool he created for this speedrun (which I stuck on http://www.doomworld.com/classicdoom/utils/editors.php btw) seems to me to be the concept of TAS stretched to the limit, which is why I mentioned "tool assisted" in the news post. Of course it's a "built" demo, but the fact that the program runs PrBoom in a separate window and lets you see instant feedback makes it less of the classical "hex edit commands, test, rinse and repeat" method of building a demo and more of the "record every tic over and over until it's perfect" sort of TAS that we know from those crazy Super Mario Bros. TAS speedruns and the sort.

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    Grazza said:

    Yes, that wiki entry really isn't helpful at all. It would be better even if it said nothing at all.

    I'd like to clarify (since this seems a point of genuine confusion) that Built and TAS demos are two different things, just as TAS demos are wholly distinct from normally-recorded runs.


    Built runs are a subcategory of TAS runs, pretty much by definition.

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    Has anybody verified if this syncs in EE? I'm doing some work on demo comp issues before 3.33.50 release :P

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