Doom 3: Possibly The Greatest Idea Ever

SHUT UP DAGGAH!!!!

The next generation of doom-style games is already here. Check out Serious Sam. Requires a kickass 3D card and a fast puter tho (the test is meant for a p3 500 mhz+ with a voodoo3 or better). Screenshots coming soon...

"...you seem to have trouble distinguishing your opinion from fact."

I never said that this was fact, I just never said this was my opinion. Christ, do I have to add "IMO" to everything I write? Are you that stupid, that you can't distinguish between when I'm trying to state fact and giving my opinion?

"Stupidest ideas such as making a pure deathmatch experience with no frills or gimmicks? I don't like Quake 3 because I enjoy frills and gimmicks, but I can understand that Quake 3 is exactly what it meant to be, and is almost certainly the best pure-deathmatch game ever. Any design decision Graeme Devine made for Quake 3 were to accomplish the goal of making it a refined and distilled deathmatch experience -- something which you don't like, so obviously Graeme Devine must be an idiot." How about that crap where if you run over ammo and THEN run over the weapon for that ammo, you don't get the ammo itself? I could go on and on about stupid little things like this. Besides, many people (including myself) believe that a lack of originality = a lack of intelligence.

"They didn't want to do Doom 3 for their next game... that doesn't mean they're not going to produce good stuff for it."

Would you do YOUR best work if someone told you to be the moderator of a Quake news page, and told you you didn't have a choice in the matter? Would I do my best work if someone told me that I had to design levels for a DOOM-engined game that I hate? Answer: no.

"Do you really think that everyone at id has always been enthusiastic about whatever direction the company takes with their next game? Just because you don't agree with the idea for a game doesn't mean you can't make good art for it."

And if you're completely opposed, you're NOT going to try hard for it, unless you were very desperate for that paycheck. Given that working for id Software gives you a reputation for quality, neither of these guys opposed to the idea would have any trouble at all finding a new job.

"And this refutes what point exactly? If Kenneth Scott's skins made Paul Steed's models look good then it would seem to follow that he is good at what he does."

It was not refuting any point. I said that to make sure you didn't think I was overlooking anything.

"Once again you are confused. Just because you do not like something does not make it bad. I do not enjoy James Joyce but that does not mean that everything he writes is stupid." Right, well, that still remains as my opinion. In MY opinion, Quake 3 is the worst game I have played in a very, very long time.

"So you were impressed by Doom 2 despite the fact that its levels sucked?"

No. I was impressed by DOOM II because I had played DOOM I, and I knew that the game itself had an enormous amount of potential. If DOOM II had been the first DOOM game I had ever played, then I probably wouldn't be here...but then again, at that point I had not played the wonderful addon levels that were available. Ignorance is bliss.

"Do you even understand everything you are saying? You appear to be saying that "like so many other id Software games," Doom/Doom 2 are pretty average games on their own, but they are made kickass by the efforts of third-party level designers. Then WTF is so bad about id's other games, or is so great about Doom/Doom2?"

I think you're giving this statement a little too much importance. I better state that this is my opinion...unlike id Software's other games, DOOM's essence...the gameplay...rocked. It's as simple as that. It's just that the original levels weren't as good as levels that I have later played. In Quake the situation is totally different. How good of a level I play doesn't change the fact that I get bored off my ass when playing Quake (this holds true for all 3 Quake games.) "First part of point 2... is that the part where I state multiple KNOWN FACTS and draw conclusions from those facts?"

No, the part where you said that you think that it is possible to make DOOM play like a current game while still keeping it somewhat like its roots, a part that I disagree with completely. DOOM's essence is simplistic fun...making it more complex would ruin that simplicity by the very nature of these two concepts, in my opinion. (Damn you, I'm sick of writing "in my opinion.") "Have you even heard of the Lithtech 2 engine? Have you seen KISS: Psycho Circus in action? There are tons of enemies onscreen at once and they certainly do not look like blocky pieces of crap. Carmack will almost certainly code a similar feature into his new engine."

I'm glad you're such a fortune teller, and since this game isn't out yet, it'll be hard to tell what kind of computer you'll actually need to make this possible.

"What's your point? That Doom 3 should have simplistic AI? Alright, sounds fine to me, as long as I am occupied by other things, such as having fun."

But I thought you wanted the game to be updated to modern standards? You can't have a game with more complex elements and then have completely dumbed-down monsters...it's been shown lately that AI is a very important feature in fps games...look at all the flak that Daikatana is taking for this very same thing. Not that I think it needs it, but it's going to have to have good AI if it will live up to modern standards...and decent AI will be too taxing (unless T&L becomes a truly widespread feature), and this assumes that id Software can, for once, develop some sort of decent AI.

"What company do you want to see do Doom 3 then?"

I'd rather not see it at all, but having a company like Valve do it wouldn't be so bad. At least, IMO, Valve knows how to make games.

You can tell me to shut up all you want to...but go ahead and look at the past events on the Shugashack and then tell me whether you think I'll actually shut up.

"I'd rather not see it at all, but having a company like Valve do it wouldn't be so bad. At least, IMO, Valve knows how to make games." I didn't find Half-Life to be nearly as good a single player experience as Doom. Half-Life featured way, way too much acrobatic crap. Make this jump here, jump this, jump that, crouch jump to this vent, yadda yadda yadda. I don't think I'd be very pleased if Doom 3 had much of that. - Also, break away floors just suck, esspecially with no warning. Oh boy, the floor gave way underneath me! Time to reload and do half the level again! It basically inspired me to not finish the game. "The next generation of doom-style games is already here. Check out Serious Sam. Requires a kickass 3D card and a fast puter tho (the test is meant for a p3 500 mhz+ with a voodoo3 or better). Screenshots coming soon." I agree.. Serious Sam has a serious Doom feel to it. It's weapons are similar, the monster spawning traps are similar.. If you haven't checked out the test demo for this game, do so. It's very nice.

Ok, just to put people's ph33rs to rest...Serious Sam, representing a new generation in 3D engine, can basically do 2 things that no other engine can do: first, it can have HUGE outdoor levels, basically about 1000mi square. Second, it has NO problem whatsoever with a bazillion onscreen enemies.

Regarding Half-Life...IMO all the acrobatic stuff was kickass, & here's why: with Doom you basically had very limited ways in which you could move and interact with the environment, whereas in halflife there were more. The differences is sort of like between your average atari game, like Pong, where you had one joystick and nothing else, and SMB for the NES, where you had to learn to manipulate a D-button and two action buttons. Saying that all the acrobatic stuff in halflife turns you off sounds (to me) like saying that that you prefer bouncing a ball around to having to jump over pits in Mario Bros.

Serious Sam is a lot like Doom... it's mostly 2D, the levels are huge, the weapons feel powerful, the enemies are fun and innovative... but it's a real resource hog, and sometimes the effects really slog it down. The weird thing is how the game came completely out of left field with almost no hype whatsoever. There are a few things wrong with it (not enough feedback when you're being hurt, some of the sounds could be better, too many teleporting-monster traps) but overall it looks like the sort of game which could very well appease me during the long wait for a new Doom game :)

I'm Friggin' sick of people bagging off DooM 64. I think its a great game, and has all the running and shooting stuff normal DooM has. If people think DooM 64 sux, they will think DooM 3 sux too... after all, they are both updates of the original.

Idea for the next poll: Who thinks that Daggah should dig his filthy claws out of Doomworld? I know which side of the fence I'm on.

My email will return soon, so that anyone who wants to flame me to pieces, can.

(This means you, Daggah, you Louis-sucking fiend.)

"Besides, many people (including myself) believe that a lack of originality = a lack of intelligence." Not a lack of intelligence, but rather a lack of inspiration... Ling: The fact that id created DooM without any clue as to what they were doing is one of the reasons it turned out so great. Working without a template often results in greater originality. The only downside is that the product can be fragmented, but that's what refinement is for. The problem arises that when you refine something so many times it becomes bland, which is what's happened to the FPS genre. There is such a thing as being too polished...

Daggah: What would the next Doom game have to be like to satisfy you?

Gosh. I can't wait to hear Daggah's answer to that question. I would ask a similar one - Daggah, is there ANYTHING in the world which you DON'T hate? Quake is shit, id is shit, Steed is shit, DOOM II levels are shit...

Daggah, please flame me. I need some comic relief.

I do, however, have a genuine point in posting this: where is Team Insanity? I know they moved after the Doomnation apocalypse, but where are they now.

One last thing: Prower's 'Shack saying is one of the most inspirational messages I have ever heard.

...you really need to shut up. My opinion disagrees with yours. Big f***ing deal, get off of it. Because if I'm pissing you off this much, you've got a problem, because I am NOT going to shut up, just like the guys who like the idea won't shut up. Knowing Hollenshead, we'll be hearing PR bull about this from now until its release.

And if you're wondering what I like...let's see, Half-Life, Squaresoft rpgs, DOOM I, DOOM II (with better levels), most of the DOOM community in general, many of the DOOM tcs and projects, Unreal Tournament, the Descent series, the Need for Speed series, and lots of other things...just because I haven't been talking about all of these doesn't mean that I hate everything. I don't even hate id Software...it's more of a dissapointment in what once was a terrific company (but no more IN MY FREAKING OPINION).

I don't even know you, Confusion, but yet I'm really starting to dislike you.

Daggah, I don't know you, but you act like a real dick. I think perhaps you should be the one taking your low IQ posts elsewhere. Perhaps in "Grammer School" you can learn something about debating a point, rather than resorting to personal attacks, and battling over semantics. People arn't pissed at you because they disagree with your opinions. I for one am pissed because your attitude is one of a 13yr old AOL'er who enjoys trolling forums and chatrooms, starting flamewars and trying to get a rise out of whoever will listen. Oh yea, that's just my opinion. *giggles* Man this is infantile.

Id Software isn't run by communists you know (IMO). They are getting paid disgusting amounts of money and will do good work in order to keep their jobs and the large sums of money (IMO). Maybe everyone is right, and you need to stop flaming all the time (IMO).

This has been a presentation of Megalyth's opinion.

Who have I flamed, besides [DIH]Grunt, who really IS always acting pretty damn stupid? Seriously, if you consider what I've said now, in this thread, to be flaming, you wouldn't last ten seconds on many gaming forums out there, like Shugashack. Get a grip; you're making my opinions more important than they really are. It's not like I'm forcing you to dwell on my comments or opinions, and it's not like reading my comments is going to force you to change your mind against your will. If you can't handle opinions that differ from your own, you probably shouldn't be here in the comments section, because everyone does NOT think like you do, and everyone does NOT think like I do. So chill out.

I'm being a dick? I was only responding to Confusion's attacks which originated because he disagreed with me. I see that I'm not allowed to fight back when he attacks me, I guess.

"Logic." Think about it.

Dagger, since you're stuck in Piaget's preoperational stage of cognitive development, you haven't acquired the skills to think logically. I can tell you're in this stage by your egocentrism. Soon (around 7 years of age), you will enter the concrete operational stage and yes, you will finally be able to think and solve problems logically. I look forward to it.

Team Insanity... well, I'm waiting to upload it...

My attacks did not originate because I disagreed with you. They originated because of the way you present your opinions. Spot on with the last post there, Chief.

It would seem, too, that I am not the only one tiring of your egocentricism. I have no problem with you holding the opinions that you do, but I do have a problem with your attitude.

Fight back all you wish. I enjoy reading people's comments. Especially when they take the form of cheap abuse against me. Funny.

(I must admit, however, that your opinion of [DIH]Grunt is accurate. Get out of here, man.)

If you think that the "attitude" that I have shown in this thread is inflammatory and angering to you, you really need to chill out. In my opinion, I've said nothing truly inflammatory...if I wanted to be inflammatory, you'd know. :)

The only difference between me and Chief is that he tries to use bigger words to put on an air of intelligence. -Note, Chief - I'm not saying you're NOT intelligent, so please don't use that as an excuse to flame me. I'm just saying it as I see it.- When you get to the basic meaning, Chief's calling me stupid. That's about it. Chief, using big words won't change the fact that you're lowering yourself to my level. And I fail to see why I should be the one to be attacked here when Confusion's made such mentally-enlightening comments as "This means you, Daggah, you Louis-sucking fiend." and "Who thinks that Daggah should dig his filthy claws out of Doomworld?"

Wait, maybe I shouldn't have asked. I DO know the answer to this one. It's because I don't like id Software any more. That makes me a heretic around here, and a scapegoat. Me saying "id Software sucks nowadays" is no different from someone saying "id Software rocks!" It's only a different opinion. You guys keep on attacking me by telling me that I'm trying to state it as fact...oh please, all of you SHOULD know that that's my opinion. You may think and say that id Software rocks in response to something I've said, and you're doing the same thing I'm doing, only with a different opinion.

Chill out. This isn't even all that important.

It seems pretty important to you, Daggah, you have more posts on this thread than anyone else.

Daggah, I've had a look back at all of your posts here, and, I have to admit, you don't really put forward your opinions as facts, and at least I can see where you are coming from. Now I do not agree with your opinions, but at least I can appreciate your viewpoint. Now, seriously, it probably sounds like I'm sucking up, but honestly, I'm not. I'm being serious here. And what possible reason could I have for sucking up?

And about my "mentally-enlightening comments"...sorry, everyone. I don't know what got into me. Too much caffeine, I'd guess. Nobody's perfect.

First off I don´t agree with Daggah.

"Id haven´t put out a good game since Doom 2", Hello where were you when Quake came out? And Quake 3 sucks? Your probaly one of those UT fags.
Either way I still think this is the worst thing that could have happened to the Doom community.

"Id haven´t put out a good game since Doom 2", Hello where were you when Quake came out? And Quake 3 sucks? Your probaly one of those UT fags."

"UT fags" huh? That says it all; don't bother responding. If you're so lame as to generalize a whole group of people as homosexual because they like a video game, you're not worth arguing with. And I was right here when Quake 1, 2, and 3 came out, and I found them all boring and dull. Apparently this opinion is not allowed according to you.

Captain Napalm may be an imbecile, but he never said your viewpoint was not allowed. He said it was wrong. In his opinion. So shut up.

I am totally looking forward to Doom ]|[, but am terrified that id will ruin it with a peice of crap engine. Contrary to that part of the article that said id is still king of the 3d engines, I say they are jack squat in that respect. Unreal (and I'm talking the original from 1998, never mind UT) is the best engine today (UT is as good), and has been for years since Unreal first came out. Why? Because: 1) Walk up to a wall and what do u see in quake 3? You see a big ugly-ass blur, regardless of resolution or the much-bragged-about, fancy-pants 'curving of textures'. What do u see in Unreal? Enhanced clarity and detail the closer you get, just like reality. 2) Look up at the 'sky' in quake 3, and behold the original Doom sky: big, ugly-ass pixels. Oh, I'm sorry id, I forgot: the big ugly-ass pixels MOVE a little in quake2/3, and there are THREE shades of orange instead of just two (I'm not kidding). Unreal? KICK-ASS, totally dramatic and very REALISTIC (putting aside that it looks so much like the alien sky it is supposed to), dynamic sky. Nighttime is a billion stars, a luminescant moon, and light, dynamic cloud cover. Daytime is a storm of evil clouds, lit through by three Suns--FUCKEN A! Sunset is a purple, boiling drama... Unreal's skies are simply... UNREAL. 3) Turn up the music in quake 2 and u better take five extra-strength Tylonol, unless u happen to be deaf. The music in quake 3? Sorry, I never played enough of the game to even know if it HAS music. Original Unreal? Beautiful, choral music, that makes you want to WEEP as you float down a lonely, high-walled canyon on an old wooden boat, beneath the darkening purple sunset, as you move deeper into the jungle of pain that comprises the Unreal universe, an alien Hell... I emailed Carmack about this, but I'm sure he gets a million emails a day and I doubt he'll even read it. I fear (know) that id thinks they ARE the best in the 3d engine and gaming dept., and that they will not put enough work into improvement prior to making Doom ]|[. Their Doom ]|[ engine will be the same shit with a could little 'tweaks' that the Doom fanatic player will not even see. This would be a horrible waste of a brilliant opportunity. I'd rather Epic Megagames made Doom ]|[, or that Carmack bought and used the Unreal engine for the game. Sound crazy? Or will we all be wishing the same thing, once the game is released using a 'modified quake engine' yet again, with the same old-ass sky and headache-inducing head banger music? PLEASE CARMACK, IF U ARE THERE, HEED THIS POST AND WAKE UP: U HAVE NOT HAD THE BEST ENGINE FOR OVER TWO YEARS. THROW THE QUAKE I/II/III ENGINE IN THE TOILET WHERE IT BELONGS AND START AFRESH. DO NOT RUIN YOUR ONE CHANCE TO MAKE DOOM ]|[. Thank you, and goodnight. Tachyon

There will be no modified Quake engine in the making of the next Doom. Some people believe otherwise, for some odd reason (perhaps the fact that some people don't completely read things). I agree Unreal may be the best engine out there currently, but don't put down Carmack's potential to code an entirely new, better-than-Quake1/2/3 engine.

Tachyon, there is nothing at all wrong with any of the Quake engines. The "flaws" you described are all purely superficial points and do nothing to damage gameplay. And gameplay, my friend, is King. Oh, the textures in Quake suck up close! How can I even consider spending my hard earned dollars on any game where I can make out individual pixels! As for the music - Jesus, man, you're missing the whole point. Unreal may have orchestral music, and it may suit the game well, but, believe it or not, DOOM IS NOT UNREAL. The Quake II music may suck but believe me, if you heard music from Unreal in DOOM, it would sound TOTALLY different. It would sound CRAP. Music taken out of context sounds [i]awful. No matter how good Unreal's music is, it is WRONG for DOOM. I hope you can see that. I hope my point is made.

Forgot to turn off italics there. Oops.