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    Fear The Anger


    covaro

    "I am not one with which to...", I'm in a movie quoting mood today. Let's just say that Ola is pissed as all hell. Read here. 'nuff said.

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    Guest Stormfox

    Posted

    what a jerk.... the darkening was an awsome project... and for somebody else to come along and take advantage of the Ola's hard work... once again... what a jerk.

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    Well, for one I dunno if Ola should have been so harsh, for one he did tell Nick not to do it previously (in private too) so i guess he had it coming. I dunno what the hell Nick was thinking though, I mean did he honestly think Ola wouldn't get mad? Kidding himself if he thought that.

    Of course, Ola, the reason everyone wants to use your textures is because they're so goddamned good. I mean, when you said we couldn't even make add-on maps for Overload, that was kinda like putting a horney naked chick in your bed and saying you couldn't do anything. IT SUCKED! Of course, they were your textures which you made all yourself, from scratch, through countless hours of toil and all that, so even if they were damn tasty looking, you had to respect your decision because they WERE yours. I respected it, but it didn't mean I agreed with it.

    That's what this comes down to, Nick should have respected Ola's wishes not to use the Darkening texture wad. At least Ola is letting us use this one to make maps because man are those textures saucy. I still wish I could have used the Overload ones tho because I'm much better at making brick/metal type maps that base-themed de2 ones, but work with what you got I guess (did I mention how saucy the DE2 textures are?).

    Anyway, I agree with Ola in this case because Nick didn't give credit/get permission and therefor Ola didn't get all the credit he deserved. And believe me, he fucking deserves that credit, those textures are freaking spectacular, and I've seen some of his newer work as well, and let me say folks, it keeps getting better. Okay I'm done.

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    I'm not going to comment on what Nick did or didn't do (since I haven't seen the WAD in question) or what has been said between him and Ola in the past (because I don't know); but I am going to say a few words about file permissions on WADs in general (whether textures or levels). Succinctly: That which someone makes, is theirs to control. So, for instance, when Ola (or someone else) releases a texture wad (as has happened with Darkening E2 or TeamTNT's The Return), the correct response is "Wow, thanks very much." and not "We should be able to rip your work and bundle it into our own files". You may not agree with the decision (and I certainly don't agree with Ola's decision not to allow the use of Overload textures at all), but as Cyb said, you have to respect the decision of the guy who created the thing in the first place.

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    That's one angry dude.. Yes, those textures are flipping awesome, and Ola's got every right to be blinking mad!! It is important to respect the decision of to author, no matter how unreasonable it may seem. Not to imply that Ola's being unreasonable at all.. Noo, no.. But that's right. The reason this "Nick" guy is ripping off your textures is probably because they ARE flip-floppity awesome!! I tell you; he may have stolen his textures, and not given credit, but we all know that these textures are created by the one, the only, the magnificent texture god, Ola!! Don't we?? I rest my case.. ;)

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    Guest Levendis

    Posted

    WTF...I thought Nick Baker of all people would be cool about this sort of thing. All the prominent authors and whatnot have to be wary of getting ripped off, so he shouldn't be blind to this sort of crap.

    On the other hand...every time I see Ola has made some new textures I e-mail him and I'm all "Get a copyright or you have no recourse if someone fucks you." And he always tells me, basically, to bork myself. I'm not saying he deserves it...I'm just saying...take some preventative measures or something...

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    "Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright."

    "Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is "created" when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time."

    All of the textures Ola created are automatically copyrighted in his name and he can seek legal recourse for infringement if he really wanted to.

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    Guest Levendis

    Posted

    We'd all back Ola up in a court of law, but as far as legal proceedings go a lot of the time you need proof, ie, a registered copyright, that your work is actually yours. What are the odds a team of attorneys could actually dig up the fact that Ola's work is his? The public world is so out of touch with us (gaming culture) that it's not even funny.

    Anyway...sheez...it's not a legal issue...it's a moral one.
    --Levendis

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    Guest citrus

    Posted

    I'm just going to comment on the Overload issue: The reason I didn't allow anyone to use those textures after the release was that I promised Mordeth the exclusive rights to them for mordeth episode 3. That decision still stands.

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    Guest Elim Garak

    Posted

    Does anyone remember how this level editing thing got started? It started with everyone using DooM as a base, textures and all. Do you hear Id Software bitching about people using their resources to create new stuff? No! Of course, everyone gives Id credit for their work. Was Nick wrong for modifying Ola's textures and releasing them without giving Ola proper credit? Yes. As to Ola's response, you have the right to be pissed(I would), but let me ask you this: how many textures have you created using Id's textures as a base(or template)? In the matter of Overload, to release textures(especially good ones) and expect nobody to use them is short-sighted. In a legal sense, if someone created a level using Overload textures, as long as they didn't include the textures themselves(just said "you need Overload DM to run this level"), there'd be nothing you could do about it. Technically, no copyright laws have been broken because nothing has been removed or copied. Think about it...

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    1. The textures in question were based on Overload textures, not Darkening E2 textures... 2. The Execution texture WAD was put together by me around the same time as Surge, when I didn't realise that Ola wouldn't even let people completely modify his textures, and until now I completely forgot that it used these textures. 3. I would have given Ola credit in the TXT file for a HUGE amount of inspiration, but Execution was released before anyone could send in their personal details. 4. The textures Ola refers of his that I used after Surge were in a texture WAD for a project (and not released publically), and were there temporarily while I made similar textures of my own from scratch.

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    I'm going to see about releasing a new version of Execution that replaces the 3 offending textures.

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    Guest citrus

    Posted

    Elim Garak: When I have modified id textures I have explicitly said so. Also, this was the third time Nick did this to me, despite me repeatingly warning him for doing so.

    Nick: That was NOT only overload textures. The 16 and 32 pixel high block brick textures (every single one of them) were based on my overload textures and N_ROCK15 is based on a texture I did for The Darkening e2. The 8 pixel high bricks are based on a texture I did for darkening e1. Don't try to tell me anything else - I can prove it. The total number of "offending textures" is 11 and not 3. Also, don't give me no bullshit about "it was released before I had time to update the TXT". As you said, you started that texture wad like 2 years ago, and why would it take you TWO FUCKING YEARS to update the TXT? Also, it shouldn't say "inspiration" since you based your textures on mine, and thats a little more than inspiration.

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    Guest Xenocide

    Posted

    I don't think Nick really told his full side of the story...

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    Guest Elim Garak

    Posted

    Ola: I read the entire message, understand what Nick did and, yes, he was wrong. I merely wanted to point out that the idea of sharing resources was where this community started. About using Id's textures, I know you've always given credit. This was not meant as an attack, but rather to prove a point...

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    Guest Sir Robin

    Posted

    Ola has copyright to those textures and he has quite damn clearly said that they shouldnt be used without his permission. Now, you could make a WAD that needs WAD with Ola's texture to run but you CANT legally take Ola's textures. Well, some people tolerate it, some dont and Ola obviously doesnt tolerate someone stealing his textures. And although I would never get that mad about it he most definately has the every right to be angry. And I dont think that Ola is going too far here. Think about the worst case, the stuff is copyrighted to Ola! Clowning with wrong peoples textures might get you sued.<P>

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    Now I know why I founded the execution textures to be beautifull... It would have been so simple to ask Ola by e-mail I know he's really friendly when you come and ask him for something. This is a community dammit : so respect and communication please !

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    Guest Anonymous User

    Posted

    Erm, that rock texture was actually based on a Hexen texture, and the grey/green 16 high brick texture was based on a Quake 2 texture, so unless you ripped those textures off yourself... The 2 "wobbly" 16 high brick textures I realise now WERE based on Overload textures. The 8x32 ones were NOT based on a Darkening E1 texture, look at them again, some of them are completely different from each other. Most of them are actually based on the 16x32 Doom 2 brick textures. Also, I'm not the moderator for Execution and so did not write the TXT file myself. Vincent Fong requested author info from all the contributors via e-mail, but then released Execution publically before anyone had time to send it in. If you read the text file again, you'll see there's no info on the authors other than their names and a description of the levels (which we didn't even write ourselves). In total I think there are 4 textures based on yours, but to make you happy I will replace all the textures you think are based on yours.

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    That anonymous post below was me, dunno what went wrong. Anyway, I would like to repeat the fact that the second time this happened THE TEXTURES IN QUESTION WERE _NOT_ PUBLICALLY RELEASED. This is like saying that you can't make a level using Overload/Darkening textures that only ever makes it as far as your own hard drive. The reason I based these textures on Ola's in the first place was the fact that in those days all the textures I made from scratch totally sucked. I don't based any of my textures now on anyone else's, at least not without explicit permission (as I got for a texture in MorbidDM1).

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    ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID? ARE YOU NICK? HUH? - Oh man, that's a classic line. I love it! Anyways, to Elim: Unlike Ola, ID never requested that there textures were not to be modified. And no, not everyone gives credit to ID for their work. Sometimes people just give the standard: "Thanks to id for you know what" line. That's like saying thanks to the DE2 team for the textures. But of course, besides Ola no one did textures. On a similiar idea it can get fustrating when people say, "Ola and Afterglow did a great job with DE2". Then your overlooking the efforts of Adam Windsor, Nick, Jan VanDerVeken, Ben davies, Richard W., and me. In essence, it's about giving credit where credit is deserved. The biggest atrocity here is that Nick in the textfile never mentioned Ola once even though he borrowed work (from DE1, Overload, or whereever). No one here should assume people will know that they are ID's textures or Ola's textures or that they came from this and that wad. NEVER assume. I've been part of DOOM for 4 years and I hadn't even heard the name Ola until about 14 months ago. anthony.

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    Guest Schronzki

    Posted

    Nick was right saying that he had no chance to give credits in the text file accompanying the Execution wad. Vincent asked us for whom we'd like to give credit but released that thing without awaiting the answer. I've just checked a list of 'ripped' textures Ola sent to me by request and I had trouble to find the originals in Overload, Darkening and Darkening 2. I'd rather understand if a guy calling himself Adelusion appears, complaining that some of the textures in Execution are pretty similar to some which can be found in GothicDM. We're all dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants. It's hardly possible to make a good thing without learning by studying and using the efforts of others. There were times were even big artists considered being copied as honor.

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    Schronski: I could come up with a pretty lengthy list of Gothic DM (2) textures that were ripped from Heretic/Hexen...

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    Guest Schronzki

    Posted

    Nick: All the textures I've done, e.g. for Vicious Circles are based on anything other people did, some more some less. Sometimes you can see it, sometimes you don't. Giving credit in some cases might be nice though.

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    Guest Slipgate

    Posted

    Hey.... I'm nobody and I'm sticking my nose in, maybe, but Nick, even if you have explanations (like 1) yada 2) yada 3) yada) at no point have I seen you say "I'm sorry" or some other form of apology. Might be a good idea. And Anthony: I really enjoyed that line too :).

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    Guest IcarusWing

    Posted

    I guess that Doomworld's most recent poll is going to tell us that most people in the community are either bellow 15 or 15 to 20, so normally I'm not suprised when someone flies off the handle - y'know all that spare testosterone flying about everywhere is going to do someone some damage.

    But Ola, I am shocked. You should be ashamed at yourself. You're older than the most of the community, you should be setting an example, not flying off the hook over 3 textures. Let me say that again... 3... three.

    This whole community needs to chill out. Stop playing games for a while and go out and get laid. Please.

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    As a fellow graphic artist(amateur starting to make moves into proffessional) I understand Ola's point of view all the way. I really hated when a person ripped my graphics several times(my brother). He's reason was that he thought I was much better than him at making gfx. Eventhough I hate an asskisser I didn't bother much with it since he's stuff never get released cause he never finish it. So you wonder what all that crap was about, I dunno. I guess I didn't wanna be the only one not having a say in this dispicable matter. But to all texture rippers out there. Fuck off. That's my two cents. Swedish Doomchef No 2.

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    Guest citrus

    Posted

    IcarusWing: It is NOT three textures. It's also the fact that this is the THIRD TIME this happens despite prior warnings. I was given no credit, he did not ask for permission and he is not admitting what he has done. Look for an update on my site in an hour or two, where I will prove that I'm right. Get your facts straight before you speak.

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    Guest Risen

    Posted

    Guess Ola got an update in there before me... I was referring to the "qdoom exists" post.

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