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    Skulltag 98a Released


    Aabra

    The latest version of Skulltag has been released. The new version includes:

    • Enhanced voting: Flooding is now protected against, it's easier to kick players, and you can specify reasons for calling votes
    • Ignoring: You can now ignore any player's chat commands.
    • Better skins: You can delete any skin you don't want, and the annoying skins are no longer included with Skulltag.
    • Doomseeker: Skulltag's new staff-made server browser is lightning-fast and smooth.
    • Better maps: D2DM8, D2CTF1, D2CTF3, D2DUEL4, and D2DUEL10 have all been replaced with better versions from the community.
    • New DMFlags dialog: Configure your server with ease.
    • Lite edition: Run Skulltag in just 16MB.
    • Enhanced ping: Ping values are now much more precise and usable.
    • Voodoo Doll support: Ever wanted to play maps like Deus Vult II online with your friends? Now you can.
    • Many, many ZDoom and GZDoom updates: The 97dx branch of Skulltag was locked in 2007. 98a is fresh and updated, allowing mappers to do many new things.

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    A new version of Skulltag and a new Scythe?

    I have been stuck for a week with a computer programming project. There has been no time for socializing, or doing anything outside of a funeral. The project consumes all day but 5 hours for sleep.

    But Skulltag and a new Scythe I will make all the time in the world :-)

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    exp(x) said:

    Source code?

    Heh.


    Isn't there already an open-source multiplayer doom port out there? Watcha' need Skulltag's source for?

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    Aabra said:

    98a is fresh and updated, allowing mappers to do many new things.



    Whatever. It's still 6 months behind.

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    Graf Zahl said:

    Where's the bug report?


    In my pants.

    This actually looks promising. Skulltag has been a real mess since that .97 release and maybe it's finally made it's way out of that hole it dug itself into.

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    Csonicgo said:

    at least it still works on my intel graphics:P


    The latest GZDoom SVN works OK on my 2 laptops, with onboard Intel and Nvidia cards.

    But I will always be using software mode online in Skulltag, for the greater (laptop) speed and resolution.

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    Aabra said:

    98a is fresh and updated, allowing mappers to do many new things.[/list]

    And allowing programmers to do nothing.

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    Aabra said:
    Better skins: You can delete any skin you don't want, and the annoying skins are no longer included with Skulltag.
    [/B]


    I personally find nothing wrong with all of Skulltag's skin's(even the hidden ones especially my favorite, the chexman skin) so technically there are less skins now :(
    On the plus side the skulltag announcer is better and less annoying.

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    The programming is nothing doom related or even fun. Its all for company and I work for a company that designs private label purses. They were going to hire a private company to make custom software. Then my friend that got me the job mentioned that I've programmed for a decade.

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    Philnemba said:

    so technically there are less skins now :(

    You can still download the old ones.

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    fraggle said:

    And allowing programmers to do nothing.


    There is nothing preventing you from joining the Skulltag development team. People who have a legitimate need for the source can get access to it.

    Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from starting your own GPL fork of an existing port with client/server multiplayer either. In fact, I think I've heard of a project that did exactly that...wonder what happened to it?

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    Alex, you fail. The question of opening the source isn't about wanting to contribute to Skulltag or start a new GPL port, it's about Skulltag giving back to the community that it's benefited from the work of.

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    esselfortium said:

    Alex, you fail. The question of opening the source isn't about wanting to contribute to Skulltag or start a new GPL port, it's about Skulltag giving back to the community that it's benefited from the work of.


    They are operating within the license that ZDoom/GZDoom has laid out for them. All of the extra code they have added to get multiplayer working is theirs.

    Given the amount of attitude they've gotten from this community (and even upstream), I don't blame them for not wanting to "give back" to this community. I'd rather them give back to the community who actually gives a damn about what they do.

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    AlexMax said:

    There is nothing preventing you from joining the Skulltag development team. People who have a legitimate need for the source can get access to it.

    Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from starting your own GPL fork of an existing port with client/server multiplayer either. In fact, I think I've heard of a project that did exactly that...wonder what happened to it?

    Spoken exactly like a non-programmer.

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    AlexMax said:

    Given the amount of attitude they've gotten from this community (and even upstream), I don't blame them for not wanting to "give back" to this community. I'd rather them give back to the community who actually gives a damn about what they do.

    I'ma steal your car and if you're mean about it I'm not giving it back.

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    fraggle said:

    Spoken exactly like a non-programmer.


    Because as a programmer I love it when people try to tell me what to do with code that I wrote and libraries that I am perfectly within my rights to use. Especially if they're annoying GPL parasites.

    DuckReconMajor said:

    I'ma steal your car and if you're mean about it I'm not giving it back.


    Using code from a program with BSD (or BSD-style) licensed code in a closed source program is not "stealing".

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    AlexMax said:

    Because as a programmer I love it when people try to tell me what to do with code that I wrote and libraries that I am perfectly within my rights to use. Especially if they're annoying GPL parasites..

    Funny how it's apparently the people who are sharing their code that are the "parasites", not the people who take the code others have written and use it selfishly, contributing nothing back.

    Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from starting your own GPL fork of an existing port with client/server multiplayer either.

    But if I wanted to create my own fork of Skulltag, I can't do that, can I?

    In fact, I think I've heard of a project that did exactly that...wonder what happened to it?

    Who knows where Odamex would be now if it would have been able to reuse code from Skulltag or ZDaemon? The developers could have focused on actually improving the gameplay and getting the kind of balance they wanted, instead of wasting time just to get the basic networking up to scratch, because none of the other multiplayer ports will share their source.

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    fraggle said:

    Who knows where Odamex would be now if it would have been able to reuse code from Skulltag or ZDaemon?


    Yeah, and look at where Skulltag is now, over 100 concurrent players last night. And who knows where Skulltag would be if all that development time spent on Odamex was instead contributed to Skulltag mainline since after all, the developers are pretty open about letting other developers on board.

    What if Skulltag had multiple WAD loading, or accurate Oldschool emulation, or better demo support, or unlagged netcode. It's not like there's a lack of stuff to do, wheres your offer to help?

    Come to think of it, where is your help anyway? The Odamex changelog dates back to July and it's only six entries deep, with Russell keeping the dream alive (Thanks). In fact, when was the last time a commit of yours ended up in the Odamex tree anyway?

    And you want to fork Skulltag? Puh-lease, you wouldn't do anything with it if you had it. I understand, you're swamped with opl-branch and raven-branch of Chocolate Doom, which an amazing port in its own right. But honestly, you and the rest of the community are just grandstanding over a perfectly legal and legitimate use of the GZDoom source.

    EDIT: It's also worth mentioning that it's not like they're not sending things back upstream, which I could actually understand as a dick move. Graf Zahl does has access to Skulltag's source, after all, and anything of worth has already been backported.

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    esselfortium said:

    Alex is either trolling hard, or is both missing the point and a complete asshole. Nice!


    To be fair, I do really wish that Skulltag would open their source. There are several good reasons to as well, which I won't even bother going over since they've been argued to death in previous threads (probably even by me).

    But there's a lot of bullshit and a lot of GPL bandwagoning in this thread. It is completely fair what they're doing with the source, and until something changes with ZDoom* that's unlikely to change. Keep in mind that "adding netcode" is no small feat, evidenced by Odamex's glacial speed of development. They did all that extra work and are adhering to the licenses, so who the fuck am I or anyone else to tell them what to do with their source.

    *Not GZDoom. Even if GZDoom went full GPL tomorrow, as long as Skulltag can still pull from ZDoom they'll be able to remain closed source. Graf Zahl can't "un-GPL" his older versions of the GZDoom renderer which work perfectly fine, and as long as randy continues to support fmodex that means that ZDoom proper will never be GPL and Skulltag can continue to pull changes from it.

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    AlexMax said:

    Yeah, and look at where Skulltag is now, over 100 concurrent players last night. And who knows where Skulltag would be if all that development time spent on Odamex was instead contributed to Skulltag mainline since after all, the developers are pretty open about letting other developers on board.

    The Odamex developers believe/d that it wasn't fair to be developing a closed source port. They were forced into this position.

    What if Skulltag had multiple WAD loading, or accurate Oldschool emulation, or better demo support, or unlagged netcode. It's not like there's a lack of stuff to do, wheres your offer to help?

    Come to think of it, where is your help anyway? The Odamex changelog dates back to July and it's only six entries deep, with Russell keeping the dream alive (Thanks). In fact, when was the last time a commit of yours ended up in the Odamex tree anyway?

    I haven't contributed much to Odamex; to be honest the multiplayer community itself isn't something that specifically interests me. That doesn't mean that I don't have a right to comment on social issues within the Doom community. Sharing of code between Doom programmers is of interest to me.

    And you want to fork Skulltag? Puh-lease, you wouldn't do anything with it if you had it. I understand, you're swamped with opl-branch and raven-branch of Chocolate Doom, which an amazing port in its own right.

    I don't want to fork Skulltag. Others might. Like the Odamex team, for example.

    Skulltag may be legally sound (it's difficult to tell with ZDoom-based ports :-), but it strikes me as unfair. Others, like me, are willing to share our work and build on each others' contributions, but the Skulltag and ZDaemon teams simply take the work of others and do not contribute back.

    In the long term I'm also worried that this source code could potentially be lost. The situation is far more extreme with ZDaemon than Skulltag, so I'll use that as an example. Is it inconceivable that in five years from now, the ZDaemon developers will all have lost interest in the project, and abandon it? Where does that leave the users? If the source code is lost, or the developers will not share it, nobody can continue the project.

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