The /newstuff Chronicles #277

hmmmh, i take back what i said about the doom community being worse than HL, halo, and fallout combined. there's some sense in it after all.

GJ enjay. also thief rules.

Wow Enjay, that was a great post, and you pretty much said everything that i wanted to, but didn't express properly. My already high respect for you has tripled.

Downloading now. ;)

Ok, let’s just make a break here.
I got a thought about improving the newstuff FAQ, not only because of the insidents in this thread…

I mean, maybe it would be helpful, if there was not only a hint or special note, but a direct definition about “newstuff”, so people know that they just get an vague overview about a wad and that it is an very personal opinion of one person. I don’t think that this is ridiculous, because you see definitions everywhere (for example: DoomWiki), so it cannot be bad to create a definition for “newstuff”.

The advantage is that people, who want to upload to the archive, also get to know about that they get a very subjective review by one person after uploading, so they know what they can expect. Maybe you tell me now that people already know this and I will tell you then: no, some don’t. I mean, when I first came here I also had a wrong view about “newstuff”, because I thought that it is more like a “neutral” Showcase, but I was wrong! And so are others… I think some misunderstandings can be avoided by this definition.

But well, at least it was just a thought I had... What do you all think about it?

EDIT: Now there is a definition. Juhu! :-P!

Deeforce said:
Ok, let’s just make a break here.

A bit late to say that now that the discussion has quite chilled, eh?

What do you all think about it?

Discuss at your heart's content, but you know well this news feature is like an IRC channel; very few manage how it works: the admins and reviewers of the site. And we don't really discuss that stuff here on the comments threads.

I have shown Torn's level to the friend (he never played Doom) and I have told about reaction of Doomworld community. He has answered, that at least this level is not worse than whatever level from Unreal2 :)

So it's better than the maps in a game that pretty much noone likes?

@kristus:
No, he said that the FREEWARE level “Sapphire - Orbital Research” was at least as good as the levels from the COMMERCIAL game “Unreal 2”.

Deeforce said:

Ok, let’s just make a break here.
I got a thought about improving the newstuff FAQ, not only because of the insidents in this thread…

The /newstuff FAQ said:

Q: The reviewer was mean. What should I do?

A: Try harder next time, and take their advice.

That ought to be enough for anyone.

And an interesting little side note, I actually PM'ed Graf with a little hint about why we're all so mean to his baby Tormentor. He brushed it off with a single insult. So yeah, don't bother trying to talk to these people, they ignore things that don't cater to their ego.

AlexMax said:

That ought to be enough for anyone.

If this is the opinion of the majority of the people here then I say: so shall it be! But I think more misunderstandings are ready to come and ready to create a next battle.

AlexMax said:

That ought to be enough for anyone.

not if there's no actual advice. which deathz0r doesn't always include.

AlexMax said:

And an interesting little side note, I actually PM'ed Graf with a little hint about why we're all so mean to his baby Tormentor. He brushed it off with a single insult. So yeah, don't bother trying to talk to these people, they ignore things that don't cater to their ego.

You sent me a pile of childish nonsense so please don't complain that I treat you like you deserve.

This conversation ended with Enjay's last response, let's not revive it again eh? How about we discuss the 'other' released wads?

I enjoyed Revisiting Phobos and Bewani was pretty fun until zdoom crashed.

dethtoll said:
not if there's no actual advice.

I've yet to read reviews that give advice to writers, film makers, or whatever; except maybe in a patronizing way when the work is hopeless. It's not something a reviewer is there for, at all. Not that deathz0r didn't hint anything with his commentary. Plus this is a wad that has gotten a lot of of exposure and posts about it, if feedback is what was required; including susbstantial critiques from people who've played or made tons of maps, and which often weren't very different from deathz0r's (although they naturally didn't have his style), even by the time it was reviewed here, and while it was in progress. Also, as usual, Tormentor667 does not simply produce wads; he also promotes them; read the first post of the thread he made for it:

Tormentor667 said:
Information:
- For GZDoom only
- Single Map
- New Textures (2mbrown.wad)
- Awesome Skybox
- Beautiful Environment Effects
- Intense Battles

When reviewing, it is quite relevant (although not in all cases necessary) to respond to how the author presents his work; and in this case deathz0r had no real issues with any items, except the last one, which is quite important, if not essential, to most people sticking to this old action-packed game. Had he presented that item differently, like "I'll aim for decent gameplay, but don't expect me to be Anders Johnsen or Richard Wiles" or had said nothing about the gameplay at all, maybe the reception would have been less negative, from deathz0r and many others.

OMG Drama!

AlexMax said:

Q: The reviewer was mean. What should I do?

A: Try harder next time, and take their advice.

Odd that rude, obnoxious, and childish criticism of Doom levels is perfectly acceptable behaviour and that level designers should just "deal with it" and even "take the advice on board", yet criticising a review of Doom levels is apparently equivalent to a crime against humanity.

Sorry to break it to you guys, but learning to accept criticism, realizing that your work isn't good enough, and trying to improve are hardly concepts which are soley limited to Doom level design. They also applies in equal measure to, yep you guessed it, writing reviews of Doom levels.

Of course, given that deathz0r is clearly incapable of accepting that anyone is actually entitled to disagree with him, it seems the chances of his review style (which can at best be described as "something a particularly spoiled six year old child might write"), actually improving are pretty much nill.

I actually kind of liked the review you wrote in this tNC, so if deathz0r does ever acknowledge that he desperately needs to work on his reviewing technique, perhaps you could volunteer to give him a few lessons?

So yeah, don't bother trying to talk to these people, they ignore things that don't cater to their ego.

"These people" refers to such individuals as deathz0r, yourself, HobbsTiger1 and mallis, right?

I once quite respected you, AlexMax (and you actually make decent levels, unlike deathz0r's crap), but ever since you started acting like a sheep in deathz0r's flock, you've really gone down hill fast. It's a sad example of how the company a person keeps can change them for the worse.

Please, for your own sake try to stop considering deathz0r to be some god-like figure who must be agreed with in all things, and learn to think for yourself again. Acting like an obnixious, whiny little twat on the internet isn't acting "cool", "hard", "funny" or whatever it is you guys think you're doing, it's simply acting like a twat. In fact, I can easily picture deathz0r actually crying simply because he played a bad Doom level. And that is not something to be envied.

NiGHTMARE said:

In fact, I can easily picture deathz0r actually crying simply because he played a bad Doom level.

Crying in laughter, perhaps.

As for the rest of your post, it's just more of your stupid vendetta against me because I don't think KDiZD is interesting.

NiGHTMARE said:
Sorry to break it to you guys, but learning to accept criticism, realizing that your work isn't good enough, and trying to improve are hardly concepts which are soley limited to Doom level design. They also applies in equal measure to, yep you guessed it, writing reviews of Doom levels.

That's false. I've been in a lot of arguments in regard to deathz0r's reviews, even on the "critical" side; he's indeed capable of listening to critiques and has improved his style with time, becoming more susbstantial and knowledgeable about what makes a good DOOM map, especially in regard to single player (he had a more to the point start in regard to DM).

That said, it's been said above, in case it wasn't obvious, that the comments are here to discuss wads, and the reviews in regard to the wads, not the "style" of the reviewer. A comment or two are fine, but not a discussion. Write an email to the site about such matters, or, if you can do so civilly and intellignetly, start a thread about your opinion. Otherwise, discussions of that sort are part of the Staff Area. This is a comments thread of a news item, and belongs to the site, to do with it as the staff decides.

It's been said above, and you ignored it, with ad hominems to fling and all. Don't expect to stay here much, if you ignore what the staff says and get personal with the reviewers.

mallis, right?

He's not even here, but your humorless attempt of an impression of him reminded me of DN a bit. Good, try, but keep trying. Needs more wit, less noise, less resentment.

NiGHTMARE said:

[snip]

That was an amazingly stupid response. Yuo cuold bhe bant!

dethtoll said:

not if there's no actual advice. which deathz0r doesn't always include.

Click for a hint

NiGHTMARE said:

I actually kind of liked the review you wrote in this tNC, so if deathz0r does ever acknowledge that he desperately needs to work on his reviewing technique, perhaps you could volunteer to give him a few lessons?

Hrm. Perhaps you're right. I will review Sapphire myself.

I can understand Deathz0r's critism about Saphire a bit. Doom is not all about Beautiful eye candy and Gorgeous graphics. It's about fast paced and fun gameplay. Saphire is nothing but a newer singleplayer version of Gothic DM: All beauty and no brains.

AlexMax said:

Click for a hint

what was your point there?

NiGHTMARE said:

OMG Drama!

I believe you're at the wrong forum.

Odd that rude, obnoxious, and childish criticism of Doom levels is perfectly acceptable behaviour and that level designers should just "deal with it" and even "take the advice on board", yet criticising a review of Doom levels is apparently equivalent to a crime against humanity.

Sorry to break it to you guys, but learning to accept criticism, realizing that your work isn't good enough, and trying to improve are hardly concepts which are soley limited to Doom level design. They also applies in equal measure to, yep you guessed it, writing reviews of Doom levels.

This has more idiocy in it than I can begin to address.

Of course, given that deathz0r is clearly incapable of accepting that anyone is actually entitled to disagree with him, it seems the chances of his review style (which can at best be described as "something a particularly spoiled six year old child might write"), actually improving are pretty much nill.

Again, more idiocy, now with lies!

"These people" refers to such individuals as deathz0r, yourself, HobbsTiger1 and mallis, right?

Keep my name out of this you spastic emo drama queen. Be reminded that I can actually handle what comes at me, instead of running off because a bunch of mean people did something bad and other mean people didnt jump on them and eat them alive. EDIT: And then coming back with a load of nonsense because some other mean person gave a bad review to one of my ztheatre pals.

Oh come on you guys, look at yourselves. You're all arguing about a game, amazing as it seems. That's it. Just over a game.
Sure some people don't like Deathz0r's review (I actually wouldn't say Sapphire 'sucked'), but everyone is entitled to their own opinion; doesn't mean you have to start a giant argument about it.
When ID Software made this game, I have a feeling they weren't thinking that stupid things like this would happen.
Really, just relax and play the game or something. It's certainly better than this arguing. =)

Tango said:

Oh come on you guys, look at yourselves. You're all arguing about a game, amazing as it seems. That's it. Just over a game.
Sure some people don't like Deathz0r's review (I actually wouldn't say Sapphire 'sucked'), but everyone is entitled to their own opinion; doesn't mean you have to start a giant argument about it.
When ID Software made this game, I have a feeling they weren't thinking that stupid things like this would happen.
Really, just relax and play the game or something. It's certainly better than this arguing. =)

Pick a side you peace loving hippy! >=0

Actually, I kind of agree with Tango's advice.

So what if Deathz0r gave Saphire a bad rating. Has the world exploded? Has Hitler been reincarnated and taken over the USA? Has everyone in the entire world died of AIDS? NO! So why are we acting like Deathz0r has murdered someone? Just stop complaining about the review and get over it.

Craigs said:

The reason why the /Newstuff updates have been so slow is because we don't have enough reviewers. Maybe you should volunteer to review some of the wads that come in.

That sounds like fun, i would do it.

In light of the disagreements in this thread I'll say a few things.

Ever since there were first things to be reviewed there have been reviewers to review them, and Doom wads have just taken their place alongside theatre, food, wine, you name it, albeit on a smaller scale. Amazingly, ever since that beginning, bad reviews have always caused consternation with creators.

I would love to say that in the real world, these differences of opinion between critic and creator have always been accepted amicably but that's obviously not true. My dissertation supervisor at university, a respected author and critic, found himself in a fistfight with an author a few weeks ago.

A fistfight! As far as I can see, that is what we are, in a virtual way, ending up with every time deathz0r does reviews of certain peoples' work.

But you know what, I don't care. The reason why I don't care is because what this always infers, regardless of field, is that both sides actually give a damn about what they're doing. I like the fact that deathz0r has strong opinions about what makes a good map and I like that Tormentor etc. plough a lot of time and effort into making their visions reality.

This is the kernel of what keeps all this going after 13 years, I'm sure.

What I'm less keen on is people rushing to the aid of whoever's side they perceive to be on. The thing is, there are no sides here. There are only mappers, and reviewers, and ultimately the exchange is between them. This thread has not been helped in any way by Alexmax, and especially not by Nick Baker, whose post once again amazed me as he sat there and, with audacious hypocrisy, charged Alexmax with the very thing he does in his post!

Negative comments are of course less helpful in reviews than positive ones, but this is again not the way reviewing works in the real world, nor will it be the way it works on here. As long as he reviews on here, and I hope he does for a long time, deathz0r will be free to make whatever comments he wishes, how people deal with those comments is up to them, none of us like criticism, but you can do three things: accept it, have the courage in your convictions to ignore it, or if you are the author, disagree with him.

Everyone else is free to express their opinions on the week's stuff of course, but I am going to be watching the upcoming newstuffs for silly personal attacks at either reviewer or mapper and this taking sides nonsense, so don't waste the time, I will simply delete it.

Why is everybody ignoring that this whole idiotic discussion started not because deathz0r gave Sapphire a bad review (which is his good right), but because he used language which is inappropriate for a serious review?

Craigs said:

Has Hitler been reincarnated and taken over the USA?

Damn, this thread's gonna die now... mind you, it should have died a long time ago :)

My God, that FAQ is so true, but I never realized it. heh. Alright, onwards.

OK, my 2p worth on Sapphire, having just played it to see what all the fuss is about! Good - use of cool new textures, lava and other liquids behind walls. Good - feel of a space station. Bad - lack of decent weapon set (not a problem for me of course :) ). Bad - not enough variety of monsters and an overpowered boss (though a cool boss in itself; would be good at end of an entire episode). Good - better-than average architecture. Bad - too repetitive use of it, though that is realism, so not strictly a problem. Gameplay not too good. For me, overall 6.5/10.

EDIT: Also a BIG HOM in GZDoom software mode, not sure whose fault that is.

EDIT:

Speaking as one who is in the middle of making a large architecture-and-effects driven WAD, it is probably worth noting that if one is going for "realism" (assuming one can, when fighting John Romero's head in a huge pit full of demons from Hell) then gameplay will inevitably suffer, unless care is taken to ensure that the player feels truly immersed in the situation.

The approach that has worked best so far in WADs that do this is to have a lot of things to do, especially things that "do stuff", especially if some of them cause harm to monsters. For example, if there is a lava pit in a power plant, having a hatch open and a clutch of demons running towards you can't stop and fall in and burn. For another, if there is a rocket on a launch pad, a la DN3D, wait until the cyberdemon is standing underneath it, then hit the "launch" button. Also a reasonable quantity of non-stock monsters helps to add variety. Have the scenery include working machinery that actually does what it is supposed to do, for example a car-crushing plant that will actually output a lump of flesh on a conveyor belt if a Demon falls into it.

Just keep the player interested with stuff to do as well as stuff to kill -- and include several things that do both.