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Everything posted by Dol

  1. Dol

    1996 COMPET-N procedures

    According to the about page, "in 1998, Pacifist and Tyson styles were included". Therefore runs submitted earlier than that couldn't have been (originally) submitted as pacifist at all. They turned into pacifist runs by resubmitting/repackaging/copying or by later analysis. I browsed through a few zips in a file dump and for example, in e1m4-016 (dated 25 August 1998 in the speed dir) Adam Hegyi mentions "Oh yes... and this one is pacifist as well..." However, in the pacifist dir, the timestamp of p1m4-016 is 11 February 1999. Its txt now has "This is a COMPET-N speed entry played with pacifist style" added to the beginning. Many re-packaged pacifist runs have the same date. In fact, the only earlier timestamp in Doom's pacifist dir is p3m6-049 by Panter. Its files have date 29 August 1997, but the txt has a line "21.06.98 19:35 pm CET". Doom 2 pacifist dir has a few more 1997 files (all by Panter with txt timestamps referring to 1998-1999 - apparently incorrectly set computer clock when zipping/uploading) and then a mass conversion on 14 February 1999. Was that conversion and repackaging done by the admin or did the runners have to re-submit? In any case, it's very possible that some runs like e1m1-015 were missed back then. So, that's a very likely reason why many pre-1999 runs were not submitted nor tagged as pacifist, and never had that done afterwards either. Quite possibly there was some delay too until runners started submitting new pacifist-style speed runs as pacifist, not only speed. If we now have some extra energy to fix the category tagging of old runs, why not. Of course, it's an interesting history lesson to see when the transition to pacifist submitting and retroactive conversion happened.
  2. And the demon bosses are like "he's coming this way...and he's punching everyone!"
  3. Hm...according to Doomwiki, "0:09 is human-optimal for UV speed", which means that... 🤔
  4. On the other hand, in some cases it would make the route longer than the "naive non-trick speed run". For a quick list (not guaranteed to be accurate), I think the following Ultimate Doom levels have optional keys: E1M3, E2M1, E2M2, E3M5, E4M5, E4M7. Indeed, all keys is easy to define and adds a variant with a bit more exploration (ranging from "none" like in no-keys E2M5 to "massive" like, well, E2M2 and E4M7?). Of course, it wouldn't really ban any of the glitches or techniques which make those skips possible, but some of them would lose their significance. Then again, others would arise when people would start looking for the new, fast routes to all keys. I don't think the community is very eager to pick up whole new categories by this point, but it could be tested as a personal exercise or a quick public challenge for specific maps/WADs. Obviously we already have a couple of 100% kills/secrets categories, which contain more exploration. Secrets, like keys, vary a lot and start from "none". 100% kills often means exploring pretty much the whole level, because mappers rarely make large side areas with no monsters. There you still see occasional improvements even in classic IWAD maps, because the overall combination of routes, resource management and luck can become highly complex. Just for random fun, I think it would be viable to rewrite the secrets of maps to contain enough sectors for the "intended route" and run a silly contest for 100% secrets with those. AFAIK, that wouldn't even break any of the old demos if done with a direct "secret bit flip" so old demos with that route would still work. Hey, I said it was for random fun, not a serious new category... If SR is considered a glitch, one consequence would be simply losing a lot of speed, even on the "intended" route. Unfortunately, less speed tends to mean less excitement when it comes to speedrunning. If not...well, there are WADs where SR was not intended so using it would introduce a "glitch". I don't know, what would be a sensible solution there. There are also other issues like unintentional AV jumps and line skips. Then again, we already have to deal with ambiguous stuff like accidental telefrags in pacifist runs. The rules are not 100% foolproof. Some interpretation is still needed. Classic categories also have level-dependent exceptions for (almost) impossible 100% kills/secrets so it's not entirely unheard of to customise the rules for specific maps. OK, I got sidetracked a few times. Meanwhile, long time ago I came up with a beginner-friendly challenge which is sort of related. I may post it at some point if anyone cares. :o)
  5. Foreword: I have no particular agenda to push here. I just find this topic interesting for general musing. There are some snippets here and there about intent vs glitches in original levels. Let's start from E3M6. I think there's no disagreement that the planned route to the secret exit was a rocket jump. Therefore this mechanic was well known and planned already in the original release. However, it involves a very specific setup, where you can move to the spot right next to a massive wall and get an invulnerability to perform the trick. I just checked and it doesn't even seem to require any backward movement. In other words, you have almost all the time in the world (well, until the invul runs out) to position yourself and then press fire once. No movement needed. And that manoeuvre gave you access to a secret level of the final episode. Therefore we can conclude that RJs were kind of planned, but in an extremely limited scope. You weren't expected to perform any in normal gameplay, and doing them in the middle of movement to reach new places would probably have counted as "impossible". Meanwhile, there's this extremely interesting designer's note: So that's possibly the best hint we have regarding SR40. Quite certainly someone did press enough keys every now and then to trigger SR40, but its potential was not really understood in 1993. Another key example is E1M4, where the ledge jump (requiring SR40) was apparently discovered in 1998. The Romero vs Hall designer comments leave the intent quite ambiguous. First, there's Tom's "it stops before it gets to the stairs now", which vaguely hints that this shortcut was intentionally blocked. However, the ledge is in there. Why? It's not particularly interesting or useful as a decoration. There's nothing like that on the other side of the pool. Then he continues "I think you'd have to get propelled backward somehow..." We know that rocket jumps (in an extremely limited form) were already known and intentional during the original release (see E3M6 above), but in that location a rocket jump would have been practically impossible by 1993 standards. SR40 is not mentioned, maybe not known at all back then? Finally, Romero concludes that "So... i think he *did* design it for a shortcut", but that's his guess of Hall's intent. To me it looks like the ledge option was planned or recognised at some point of design, but they intentionally tried to prevent it by changing the architecture. This SR40 skips the blue key so it looks like a "glitch" (a non-planned skip) to me. Interestingly, before this ledge route, people were using the final room rocket jump, already in 1995, but it's a great deal more difficult than E3M6's and almost certainly not planned. Is that a glitch if it exploits a known mechanic in an unexpected place? After the ledge route, it was discovered that one can SR50 right through the exit gap. If already SR40 was unexpected, this definitely wasn't planned or expected. All of these routes skip one of the "mandatory" keys. Which ones count as glitches? Things get a lot more complicated if we consider later WADs from the "speedrunning years" when these tricks were already known. For example, Hell Revealed MAP14 has a secret which requires a double-SR50. Many advanced compet-n WADs contain a load of specifically designed skips, which involve rocket jumps, AV jumps, SRs and whatnot. Still, there's a massive grey area where we cannot confirm whether such tricks were totally unexpected ("glitches"), somehow recognised, or simply planned as an alternate route for cool guys. Therefore it would take a lot of documenting (and undoubtedly arguing) to come up with rules for "glitchless" across all these WADs. I wouldn't be surprised if at least someone out there called each of these tricks "cheating" by the time when they were discovered. There definitely was a lot of debate around the first void glides. Even some speedrunners thought that things were getting too ludicrous. I agree that it kind of spoils something. Many modern "by any means" speedruns (including Doom 2016) are just dull to watch, if the player spends 80% of time out of bounds, wading through a black screen and floating polygons. Is that even a real game any more by that point? Not really entertaining unless simply getting the lowest possible number is entertaining to you. To wrap this up, glitchless would be a very difficult category to define universally. However, I'd be happy to see some one-off challenges like "E4M2 without the exit jump" (which has been done). There are plenty of areas in compet-n WADs which have rarely been visited in speedrunning since a major skip was discovered (which often happened in the 90s). Battling through the original route could squeeze something out of maps that everyone knows but few people really care about after skips have turned them totally trivial speedrunning-wise.
  6. Nevertheless, I'm waiting for Romero to play.
  7. Dol

    dsdacon 2018

    I heard there might be some Scythe tonight... https://esamarathon.com/schedule https://www.twitch.tv/esamarathon
  8. Dol

    pa02-2057, Underhalls done Pacifist!

    Nightmare speedrunning is quite popular, isn't it?
  9. Dol

    DOOM II demos [-complevel 2]

    Quiz time! Who wrote... "Realistically, though, I don't believe we'll ever see a sub-21 time [for 30uv]." "So very close to 20 minutes, but to save another 33 seconds on top of a [30uv] run like this in far beyond my capabilities." "I am 100% sure that sub 22 is not possible in any realistic amount of time by anyone, So a sub 23 minute run should be the final minute barrier for 30nm." "This [sub 23] *should* be the last minute barrier for 30nm, while there is always time to be saved in doom, I cannot imagine the amount of luck you'd need for a time under 22 minutes." "Regarding episode 2 and 3, or a full movie [of Plutonia nm], that will never happen." "I can't wait to see a nightmare run through DOOM2, it's just gotta be impossible!" Bonus question! X) If any of these was, in fact, incorrect, can you give a counterexample? To give others a fair chance too, you can use the spoiler tag for your answers. Go!
  10. Dol

    Things about Doom you just found out

    It had eleven from 1807 to 1845 and many more soon after that. The process of demoting asteroids into their own class began in 1854. At that time there were officially over 30 planets...
  11. Dol

    Be Honest [E1 secrets]

    I think the later conclusions by Hall/Romero may be somehow inaccurate. That particular jump essentially requires straferunning, but another Romero message (regarding E3M6) says: "The advanced techniques of strafe-running, et al, did not come about for almost a year after DOOM's release so there was no way we could anticipate someone getting into the secret area any other way." source: http://www.rome.ro/lee_killough/history/doomqna.shtml So, according to that, straferunning wasn't considered. Propelling from a rocket, maybe, as Hall suggested? Probably not. The E3M6 jump was "secret exit hard" by 1993 standards. That is, possibly the hardest trick you're supposed to pull off. Still, you get invulnerability, a rocket launcher and a conveniently placed solid wall right behind you. In E1M4, the rocket launcher is in a secret area (whereafter the "shortcut" becomes almost irrelevant anyway). There is no good object for rocket jumping, and even with one (say, a monster) it would be vastly more difficult than in E3M6. In any case, it doesn't sound like something intended for a common E1 map. Heck, in 1993 even plain running was almost considered a trick. It wasn't until 1998 or so, when this straferunning jump came up in the Compet-N community. I can't imagine Hall inserting something so difficult that it took five years for hardcore gamers to discover it. My guess is that at some point of level design a jump/walk was possible. If the platform edge or the stairs were just a bit higher, it would work without straferunning. Or maybe the ledge was longer. That's why Hall says "But not sure if you can get to it.... it stops before it gets to the stairs now..." I think the shortcut direction was ultimately made "impossible" for the final release. Maybe the ledge was left there for sneaking back to the starting side without touching the slime. Maybe they used a wider ledge first, but shrunk it back without deleting the sector. Hard to say for sure.
  12. Dol

    Scythe demos [-complevel 2]

    OK, good to know. It felt a bit too obvious to remain undiscovered for six ears or so. However, all the demos I found, all the way to Tatsurd's 7:46 TAS from October 2008, used the same plain railroad route. His .txt mentions the blue key jump, but not this one which appears far easier to me. It doesn't even come up in that forum topic or this one. How old is your "very old" demo and did you ever release it? DSDA only has your betas. Otherwise I might expect to see this jump in a real demo, but the tricky part is staying alive from a 100/0 start. Being map28, it doesn't feel too tempting for real episode runs either. I guess these tricks will remain mostly TAS entertainment.
  13. Dol

    Scythe demos [-complevel 2]

    Hello, I'm new here... I was wondering if anyone has done this before. Scythe map28 (Run From It) TAS UV speed in 0:24. I hope this all works as intended. :-\ sc28ta24.zip