Vesperas_

I wouldn't describe it as stagnant. Why do you think that? The original Doom games has been doing quite well. People are still releasing new WADs for them all of the time, including John Romero, and the community still has many active members that have been around for over a decade. It was also just re-released and it has higher ratings than Eternal. Doom (Classic): 94% Positive Reviews Doom Eternal: 91% Positive Reviews Doom 3 is different too. It's not a bad game--just different. Either you get it, or you don't. It's not subtle. It's very clear. That quoted text from the manual is printed in every Doom game, not just the shareware card. I was actually looking at the manual for PSX Doom when I copied it and I know it's also printed in the Doom II: Hell on Earth and Final Doom manuals. Sure, Urdak is absolutely nothing like Xen from Half-Life. Yeah, it sure is. You're right. I'm done. It's pointless anyway.

The Mancubus isn't in Doom/Ultimate Doom. I'm not sure what your point is there. Doom is defined in its manual: "The game play for Doom is quite simple. This is not a cumbersome role-playing game, but an action-orientated slug-a-thon. You don't need super-human reflexes to win - using your wits is JUST AS IMPORTANT. To escape Doom, you need both brains AND the killer instinct." The new games are missing half of that original formula. The gameplay of Doom 2016 is basically Painkiller. Eternal is like an awkward love affair between Painkiller and Half-Life. They're fun in their own way for a playthrough once or twice but that's about it. Your mileage may vary. The point is, they're so different that they had might as well be called different things.

So does Painkiller.

Brutal Doom has a very long history. It was 1st introduced well before RAGE was released. There was no information on Doom 4 prior to that beyond John Carmack saying it would use id Tech 5 and run at 30 FPS. The screenshots and plot weren't revealed at all until quite some time later, and what little was shown of Doom 4's gameplay wasn't until several years following that. Furthermore, I recall Kevin Cloud even saying glory kills were inspired by Brutal Doom's popularity in an interview he did for Doom 2016, which briefly touched on the cancelled Doom 4. I didn't say Doom Eternal was a COD clone. I said it was reusing assets and ideas from the cancelled Doom 4, which was panned for being a COD clone. There was little to no information on how Doom 4 would actually play, but that didn't stop people from assuming it would play like RAGE (which was fair). The reservations most people had with Doom 4 was centered on the glory kill system, due to an overwhelming disdain for quick time events at the time, and the apparent plot, which featured the PC battling alongside a resistance to save Earth from a hell invasion. Those key points, coupled with the regenerating health aspect of RAGE and how it played, are what led to a lot of people to refer to it as "Call of Doom." My comment about it being the "Call of Doom" game we were supposed to get makes no mention about how it plays. Zero. None. So yes, you're making shit up. Because you're incapable of following the discussion like a normal person and interjecting things that do not exist in your rabid fanboy-ism, allow me to quote my original post here (with highlights!) for you to re-read: So, please tell, if RAGE 2 and Doom Eternal both feature similar gameplay (which they do, it's not even open for debate), why was RAGE 2 rated so poorly while Doom Eternal is being praised? Here's the rest of my post: Regarding Doom Eternal's gameplay itself, my opinion on it has come around to be more in-line with my original expectations. It's not the worst FPS I've played but it still suffers from the same general issues D16 has, over-reliance on arena battles and the glory kill system. I jumped into the game immediately on UV, and wasn't expecting you to start off weaker than you did in D16. Your normal punch deals shit damage and only being able to carry a small handful of ammo is lame. The game forcing you into over-reliance on the chainsaw (with regenerating health fuel) felt bad. Thankfully, as I guessed, it becomes better. I'm not sure where I would put it in my list. Maybe around #3 or #4? I will readily admit here, as I have in threads elsewhere already, my overall growing disdain with Bethesda & Zenimax has tarnished my view on it by association as well. It wasn't always that way. I already knew (or at least, was very close to knowing) the direction the franchise was headed, hence my disappointment when everything I assumed turned out to be true. It has become old debating all of the fanboys who don't know shit, can't even follow posts sequentially, make shit up... But I feel vindicated in knowing the direction the story was going to go before Doom Eternal was even announced, even when said fanboys attempt to proclaim "Doom isn't my thing" despite apparently knowing it as well as its current creators.

Half-Life does have large amounts of platforming; multiple, entire levels composed of it. Regardless, I'm not even sure what your point is. First you claim Doom Eternal is more like Doom than Half-Life, then you claim it's more like Half-Life, then you attempt to say I think Eternal is bad because it's not like old-school Doom because it has jumping, and now you're saying it has more jumping and platforming than Half-Life. Holy shit, just make up your mind! Worse still, I could not care less about how much platforming it has. I never complained about that. The least you could do is pay attention, get with the program and stop making shit up. What I did say is I have been disappointed with it so far and it is the worst FPS game I've played in the last 3 years (because it is). I liked RAGE 2. I liked D16. The reason I brought up RAGE 2 was because of the absurdity of it all when making a direct comparison because they are, in fact, very similar in many regards and yet, RAGE 2 was universally panned, while Doom Eternal is regarded as a masterpiece. It's complete nonsense. To be fair, RAGE 2 didn't leave a very good 1st impression either. The beginning of the game has the same forced vibe as Eternal, so hopefully it becomes better. What are you? A 10 year old? Grow up. My reasons for being disappointed with it are: It feels very derivative, with clear and blatant influences from Diablo III, Warhammer, Predator, Super Mario, Zelda, My Little Pony, Quake 3, Brutal Doom, et cetera. As I've said before, D16's glory kills became repetitive and Doom Eternal will as well by default, especially since I've already noticed many of them have been recycled for the zombies, imps and soldiers. The rainbow colors, yellow question marks and overall tone thus far are ridiculously cheesy and lame, with much of it just feeling and looking strange or out of place. It's just so silly and ridiculous it's approaching laughably bad. It was obviously intentional. It's making fun of itself, the older Doom games, heavy metal music and the old-school Doom fans. I get it. I'm not a fan. What little I've seen of the story and cutscenes have just given it a very disjointed and forced feeling. Maybe it comes together. Maybe it doesn't. I actually do care about the story. However, Zenimax and id Software have already pointed out they want to create a Doom universe, transform the Doom Marine into a super hero, introduce a bunch of different factions and drama, and make it into an installment franchise because they want lots of money. As much as I attempt to not care, that actually does kind of annoy me. It happens. I'm all for supporting developers. I'd be a hypocrite to claim otherwise. I'm not sure I necessarily want to see Doom follow the path Bethesda's other IP's have taken however. There's a reason why Doom Eternal's lack of microtransactions was considered a selling point. They're still there of course, they're just hidden behind external paywalls. In terms of gameplay, it just feels like more of the same so far (between RAGE 2 and D16). I beat D16 on Ultra-Nightmare and started Eternal on Ultra Violence. My only death so far has been from hitting an invisible wall while attempting to jump over a small area and falling into a pit. The game clearly only wants you to travel across the areas clearly shown on the auto-map.

That's not what I said. I said I've been disappointed by what I've played so far. I work at a hospital on 12 hour, 7 day rotations, and it has been a little hectic. I only started playing it earlier today but what I've played so far has been very linear. It's hard to call an area a secret with the Super Mario question marks pointing them out in a way that is well beyond obvious. Every attempt I've made to go off the beaten path has been met with me hitting an invisible wall or falling to my death (due to hitting an invisible wall). And? They still exist. So far, it seems to be even more than Doom 3. It's not really optional when you're force fed an objective based progression system, cutscenes, dialogue, et cetera, but I also never remember saying this was a negative. All of my criticisms with it have been with how inane and derivative it has been so far. The movement, weapons, ability tutorials, dash, double jump, breaking armor off of enemies, floating pick-ups... You haven't played RAGE 2 have you? It's okay. It's a lot like D16 and even more so, like Doom Eternal. You haven't played Half-Life have you? That's also okay (kind of). The 1st secret of Doom II you actually earn from just turning around. Almost every wall secret has a tell. Now you're just being dumb.

I wouldn't say that. I liked D16. The glory kills just became so repetitive that I have a hard time playing it now. I loved Arkane Studios' Prey. Maybe my memory is completely failing, but I don't recall ever seeing massive, yellow question marks to mark secret areas in the original Doom, nor do I remember the levels being so linear, cutscenes, "lore," the monsters dropping skittles (taste the rainbow!) when using the chainsaw... You missed the point. I assumed it was because you were unfamiliar with the cancelled Doom 4 and the popular opinion of it at the time (hence why I said you must be new here). The cancelled Doom 4 was panned because it was shown to have a checkpoint based save system, glory kills, cutscenes, linear level design, and a dialogue/story-driven campaign in a hell on earth setting. Doom Eternal has all of those things. I was under the impression were discussing the gameplay. I didn't mention DUSK, AMID EVIL, and everything else to point out story elements. I'm rather sure I wrote the best games I've played. I'm glad you pointed out Duke Nukem 3D was regarded as a Doom clone. In part, it's why I said I (especially) regarded Ion Fury as being one of the best FPS games I've played in the last 3 years. It's both. Black Mesa's Zen chapter is very much a re-imagining. Most of it is entirely new. As before, in terms of gameplay, Doom Eternal shares more in common with Half-Life than it shares in common with the original Doom, which is specifically why I mentioned jumping. It's not an issue for me. It's just proof of my point. RAGE 2 was voted the worst game of 2019 on Steam, yet Doom Eternal is the best Doom ever made? It simply shows how easily people are duped by popular opinion. The FPS component between them are so close you could exchange Walker for the Doom Marine and hardly tell the difference. Seriously. I just thought it was laughable someone would say "Doom isn't my thing" when my username is that of a Master Level from Doom, created by a level designer most Doom fans consider to be one of the most influential mappers ever. The song is called Opening to Hell. And you're right. He sure does. That's why almost every single one of Mick Gordon's songs for D16, including the theme song, and presumably, many for Doom Eternal, are based on one of Bobby Prince's original songs, with the notable exception of Harbinger, which is based on Chris Vrenna's Doom 3 theme (aka the Tool Lateralus rip-off). Sadly, I'm not sure because I can't play the tape that came with my DE: CE (I haven't owned a tape player in years), and Bethesda is holding back the digital download.

Thank you for proving my point. Yeah! The Doomicorn skin! It's prominently featured on the main menu and is rewarded to people who have Twitch Prime accounts (has nothing to do with streaming)... Man, it is the epitome of Doom. It's so fucking metal. When I saw it, I was immediately reminded of how awesome Slayer's Reign In Blood album is. It did not make me think of "My Little Pony" at all and despite what some may claim, Rainbow Dash is not, in fact, the Doom Slayer. You're clearly new here. Welcome. Prior to D16, id Software was working on a new Doom game, tentatively called Doom 4, which became more popularly regarded as "Call of Doom," that was depicted as being something of a mix between RAGE and Doom 3. It had glory kills, featured a hell on earth setting, complete with a huge gore nest landmark and hellish landscape, and resistance survivors. Seeing as Doom II came out before COD, no--I wouldn't call Doom II a COD clone. It's depressing I even need to point that out. I've never played Fortnite mate. Also, I still have my original boxed copies of Doom II, Master Levels (with the poster hanging on my wall), Doom 64, et cetera. My username/namesake is my way of praising the brilliance of the late John W. Anderson. I have a copies of DeepSea or WadAuthor on my PC (because, you know, memories). I also own a copy of Doom Music signed by Bobby Prince. (His music sucks. Mick Gordon forever!) You're right though. Doom isn't my taste. I've never heard anyone ever say Half-Life was inspired by Doom, and I've been a member of Doomworld a very long time. (This isn't my original account.) It does use a branch of the Quake engine, but that's reaching. As far as Black Mesa, it's a fan-made re-imagining of Half-Life in the Source engine. How the hell is that inspired by Doom? The concept of jumping wasn't even introduced to Doom as a franchise until well after Half-Life was released. And yes, I am comparing the two (as did everyone else, including most major review websites). The PC in RAGE 2, Walker, actually moves faster than the Doom Marine Slayer in Doom Eternal, and can also double jump and dash. The FPS action component is more-or-less the same between D16, RAGE 2 and Doom Eternal, with a few notable differences.

Yes. I went into it with rather low expectations and have somehow still managed to be disappointed with it so far. It's interesting to see how many people are praising it as the best Doom ever when it's clearly the "Call of Doom" game we were originally supposed to get. From the cancelled Doom 4's screenshots and glory kill system (which was recycled into D16), it's quite apparent. The giant gore nest, resistance fighters, survivors, hell on earth theme... it's all there. Hell, the subway cars look like they were lifted straight out of those old screenshots. It's even more interesting to see how easily people are molded by popular opinion (whether it be good or bad). If you objectively look at how poorly RAGE 2 was received and rated, and compare it to Doom Eternal, the above point becomes as blatant as all shit. As far as the game itself, it's probably the worst FPS I've played in the last three years. DUSK, AMID EVIL, WRATH: Aeon of Ruin, RAGE 2, Black Mesa and (especially) Ion Fury blow it out of the water. At least Doom Eternal has the "My Little Pony" thing going for it with the Doomicorn. Rip and Tear. Also, if you guys haven't already, make sure to join the Slayer's Club™!

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with the Doom Marine himself. It's not a middle finger at all. It's pandering. Double Impact and No Rest for the Living are, and always have been available for free, with No Rest for the Living already having been packaged into the Doom 3: BFG Edition. The rest are (or were) available several times in different packages, as well as for download on both GOG and Steam (but not before Bethesda jacked up the price on the Master Levels to make their "enhanced" version a more attractive purchase option). Of course they never claimed to have invented Doom. That would be ridiculous. However, it seems like they really want people to believe they did, judging by how they've slapped their logo over everything. Guaranteed Bethesda's logo will be the 1st thing you see when launching Eternal. The lawsuit was because John Carmack quit. That's basically what it boils down to. Bethesda had no financial interest in VR development, provided little to no support toward its development, which caused John Carmack to do it all on his own and hobble it together into a token feature for the Doom 3: BFG Edition. I specifically recall comments made by John Carmack expressing his annoyance with Bethesda and how they just pushed the Doom 3: BFG Edition out the door because they just wanted some quick cash. A short while later he quit and then proceeded to "steal" his own work developing VR with the advanced prototype headset Palmer Luckey gave him. Bethesda then proceeded to sue him because his code was in a "Bethesda" product and as such, it was owned by Bethesda, despite him doing it all himself, much of which was likely on his own time. Worst of all, prior to the lawsuit, John Carmack, despite having just quit id Software, still offered to do his keynote address at QuakeCon, but Bethesda denied him from doing so. The point of my hyperbole and various references to Bethesda's bullshit was to demonstrate how opposite they are from the open source and community driven id Software responsible for Doom. As far as Tim Willits, based on what I was told from a former Avalanche employee, a contract was made to develop RAGE 2 between Avalanche and a team from id Software. The contract specified a development cycle and 2 planned DLC expansions. Development on it started, and at some point into it, Bethesda proceeded to pull almost all of the id Software team to work on Fallout 76 and develop net code and program, while also pushing for a more marketable "Doom-like" game, as well as an online store to sell absurdly overpriced weapon skins and cosmetic items. This inevitably put their work on RAGE 2 behind schedule, but Bethesda offered no additional support. Behind schedule, overworked and frustrated, many Avalanche employees quit, putting them even further behind, which eventually caused Christofer Sundberg, one of the founders of Avalanche to leave once RAGE 2 shipped and his contractual obligations had been met. My impression was Willits quit not too long following RAGE 2's ship date because he barely recognized the company he had spent so many years working for and wanted nothing to do with Bethesda. His nice, professional response when asked was he preferred working for smaller companies. It's not even comparable. The mobile RPG came about from one of John Carmack's personal pet projects. There was basic merchandise like hats, shirts, bumper stickers, a poster once in a while, and the rarer, more collectible comic and Reaper miniatures, but nothing like it is now with full-lines of collectible pins, ski-boards, Christmas ornaments, refrigerator magnets, plushies, kid's blankets and pillow cases, action figures, travel wear, jewelry, cologne, limited edition fine art for hundreds of dollars or any of that shit. ACT NOW and you can have your very own, #04 DOOM UAC EliteGuy Pin of the Month for the ridiculously low price of only $15.00 (+$8 shipping and handling)! WTF? Who or what the hell is an EliteGuy? It's not enough to sell the collectible figures. They have to sell collectibles for the collectible figures. What is there to explain? It explains itself. As before, you're missing the point. Doom has never needed, nor does it need, cutscenes or lore. John Carmack once said that story isn't important in games. In many cases, it's true. Ion Fury is an excellent game but it has no story. The story is: evil cyborgs caused you to spill your drink and now you're seeking revenge. In Doom's case especially, it's been quite successful without it. The open-ended nature of it is part of what makes Doom what it is, like a choose your own adventure book, people interpret it however it suits them. It inspires the imagination by presenting you with the unknown and not explaining it. That ceases to be the case when you explain or define it. The addition of "heaven" (not really heaven) in Doom Eternal is to build a Doom Universe. The intent is to shape it and sell it. They need it to have a plot full of drama to keep people interested in consecutive, future installments, because their goal is cash. This is the exact opposite of what Doom is, or represents, for many people. No, I wasn't aware. I'm dumb, you see. I guess that must also mean when John Romero said the Doom Marine didn't have a name because he was meant to be the player he obviously wasn't referring to me personally, because I don't have a bunch of 1-Up's in my pockets, nor can I double jump or instantly warp myself to work by jumping into sewer pipes. I have to drive a stupid car to get to work. It's clear to me now. I'm just not cool enough to be the Doom Slayer™. Are you sure? I mean, maybe the demons are just misunderstood? It's hard to tell what is going on between VEGA, robot cyborgs that sign their names suspiciously close to what reads like Satan, sacrificial cultists, lightsabers, Templar knight ghosts your B.F.F. Ranger killed in Quake, Wraith fossils being drilled for Argent Energy oil, dinosaur bones, Wilhelm "Deathshead" Strauss being stuck in a wall and that battery operated cyborg moose with the fire whip. I'm sure once we meet up with Tyrael in heaven he'll explain everything--like how the Doom Slayer™ is nephalem and only he has the power to end the demons by trapping them in the Black Soulstone. Maybe he'll even provide us with one of Decard Cain's journals and some other ancient relic that will let the Doom Slayer kill Diablo for good. They have not expressed interest, AFAIK. There is no work happening nor planned to do so. SnapMap was dropped and Marty Stratton's official response was basically, "no, but never say never," which is just an apologetic way of saying it's not happening. In summary: No, Bethesda removed the unnecessary and never should have been there to start with always online requirement that they spent time developing and implementing because they're the good guys and they clearly value their fans, ignoring this one exception which continues to exist, but that doesn't count because there's a way around that, and it's not censored, except this place where it's censored, but that doesn't matter. Seriously, people really like to keep beating the dead horse about the always online thing don't they. Of course it's worth $15! It doesn't have the always online requirement anymore! I mean, sure... You could purchase the normal, mediocre, NON-enhanced version for $5 and play it how the developers originally intended but then you wouldn't have the pleasure of performing superfluous tasks to get around the always online requirement. How lame is that? As before, I wasn't looking for a debate nor seem insincere, even if it is annoying to see how dismissive people are of my point because they choose to be ignorant to it.

Not that anyone asked but here's my opinion: Doom Eternal will be a good game, but will likely face some backlash because it's been over-hyped. While I'll probably enjoy it enough, I'm expecting my own experience with it to be bittersweet because to me, it represents the end of an era, so to speak, for the company that invented Doom--id Software. The way I see it, Doom Eternal represents Bethesda's campaign to turn Doom, as I know and love it, into Doom™. The Doom Marine as depicted by Gregor Punchatz's original artwork represented the underdog--you against all odds--with a big, middle finger to the man. It was counter-culture. It was ultra violence. Shareware made open source, and handed to the fans and community for nothing beyond "thanks for supporting us. Now let's see what you can do. Go nuts!" QuakeCon and everything else they did seemed to be done for the fans, modders and community. The Doom Slayer, on the other hand, represents something more like Captain America or He-Man--a franchise symbol--designed and marketed with the specific goal of selling merchandise--replacing the big, middle finger to the man with a big, neon sign with dollar symbols on it. Join the Slayer's Club! Buy our Doom™ ENHANCED and Doom™ II: Hell On Earth ENHANCED (which are just censored versions with an added EULA and always online requirement) and we'll generously reward you with different colored shades of armor for our upcoming Doom Eternal (with all money going to our lawyers so we can continue to issue DMCA notices to people in the Doom community)! That's sure to show them for claiming we're just ripping off their ideas! Here at Bethesda, we love Doom! Why? Because despite what you may have heard, we invented it! Not John Carmack. Our lawyers sure showed him with our $500 million dollar lawsuit! Oh, Tim Willits has a problem with our $8 weapon skins in RAGE 2, you say? Well, Mr. Willits, here's the door. We trust you know how to use it? Hey, Doom fans! Did you know about our SUPER COOL Slayer's Club? That's where the REAL Doom fans are! And to celebrate how much money we're making, tweet us your selfie while wearing our Doom Slayer (patent pending) helmet that we graciously allowed you to buy from us and we'll enter you in for a chance to win 2 FREE TICKETS to our Universal Studios Doom Theme Park or a redemption code for our Bethesda Doom pinball game! (Doom Slayer Helmet may or may not be infested with mold. Bethesda and its subsidiaries assume no liability for any health issues you may develop from wearing it.) In short, Doom Eternal is anti-Doom. A paradox, to be sure. Regardless, it's apparent they're turning Doom into something that isn't true to what Doom is (or was), while also attempting to supplant the old games and control it, like they have when they sued for damages and forced several injunctions on Notch because he started developing a game called Scrolls, which clearly sounds like the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, causing them severe financial losses from infringing on their beloved IP. Notch asked to settle it with a Quake 3 match and they declined. Bethesda doesn't play nor do they care about Quake 3, other than the money it makes them of course. None of the issues, despite new-id Software's reassurances otherwise, seem to have been addressed in Doom Eternal from what I've seen regarding the arena design or general repetitiveness. It seems like it will have cutscenes based on what I've heard. The expanded Doom universe is unnecessary. I've never seen or heard of anyone asking for "heaven" or any of that nonsense. I'm not sure if the Doom Slayer is attempting to be the Doom Marine, or a Predator with that blade on his arm and shoulder cannon, or Super Mario with his double-triple-dash jump and extra lives, or Link with his Master Sword and grappling hook. Seriously. WTF? Doom = Doom Marine + Guns + Kill Demons + Puzzle Maps. That's it. There's also no apparent interest in mod support for it at all. Instead it will feature token, online "features" no one asked for. It's just weird to consider. Especially for a Doom game. This sentiment, coupled with the recent releases of several incredible retro-FPS games like Dusk, Amid Evil, Ion Fury--hell, even Romero's Sigil, has basically raised the bar for Doom Eternal to a level that I simply cannot imagine it reaching, especially when you consider the budget for Doom Eternal's development easily eclipses the budgets of all of those games combined several times over. TL;DR: In many ways, Doom Eternal appears to be the opposite of what makes (or made) Doom awesome, and it's possible whatever reaction you're referencing for the basis of this thread may have come from a similar sentiment. It's best not to dwell on it. If you like it, you like it. No one will probably give a shit about Doom Eternal in a couple of years anyway. Life goes on.

I'm sorry about the bump! I had bookmarked this because I wanted to respond but became too busy with RL to sit down and write my opinion. I believe so, yes. Zelda seems to have a cyclical universe which happens within an all-encompassing, quasi-linear timeline. I'd call it strictly linear, except many of the games obviously feature the ability to travel through or manipulate time, albeit with very limited reach and only ever within the same universe. AFAIK, it's correct to say everything is reincarnated with the exception of a few characters, such as Ganon. The impression I have had is when Ganon is defeated, he's cast out of that universe and has to wait until it is reincarnated before he can make another attempt at taking over. Link, on the other hand, apparently lives out his normal existence, dies, and is reincarnated within each the universe. The Skull Kid from Majora's Mask drops some pretty heavy hints drawing attention to this. In other words, it's a different Link battling the same Ganon, spread out over different reincarnations of the universe. The Elder Scrolls on the other hand, has the worst possible lore explanation in my opinion, because time has no meaning. The Elder Scrolls posits that everything and anything can and does happen at any given time and at all times simultaneously and treats it all as canon. In other words, if you wipe out the Dark Brotherhood in your playthrough of Skyrim and I become their Listener in my playthrough, we're both correctly playing the game because both happen and are canonical. It calls attention to this within the game lore multiple times, as seen with the Elder Scrolls themselves in-game, as well as with various other events, such as the "Warp in the West." The reason I despise either of these concepts being applied to Doom is because... it simply doesn't work. It gives me a headache if I even attempt to seriously think about it. My position is: to apply, or even attempt to apply these concepts to Doom is absurd, due to the inclusion of teleportation, because it would infer that every time the Doom marine stepped through a teleporter, he potentially (probably) ended up in a different timeline. This would satisfy the Elder Scrolls explanation but it also implies there are hundreds of thousands of millions of Doom marine clones running around, hopelessly attempting to kill a demon horde which is infinite, spread out over infinite timelines, and for this reason, it is also reasonable to assume Commander Keen, Wolfenstein, Quake, Rage and Doom all happen within the same universe, as well as everything uploaded to the id Games archive, and it is all legitimate, authentic, game canon. While this does allow id / Bethesda to readily wrap everything together with a nice red bow, explain how Quake 3 and Quake Champions work into it all, and turn it all into a big, Marvel-universe, money-making machine, I'd much rather prefer the "it was all a dream" route at that point, complete with a pan out to the Doom marine actually just being some random dude in a mental health facility. Bottom-line, I prefer it to be kept simple, as its own thing, like it always has been. That's just my view.

Could be. Personally though, I hate the idea of alternate timelines or a lineage of "Doom Slayers," like "Links" from Zelda. In Zelda's defense, it's been consistent with it at least, with only a handful of them featuring the player playing as the same "Link," such as Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. For Doom to pull that now is well beyond retarded and is clearly just them making shit up to sell games. There's just no way around it. For Doom Eternal to launch and pull that kind of bullshit only weeks prior to Doom's 25th anniversary would be obnoxious. I would prefer it to have almost no story at all (like the original Doom games) over some Marvel universe, time traveling, interdimensional, magic-man-done-it (!), tie-in story explanation. That said, as I see it, Doom Eternal can go in one of five ways, listed from worst explanation to best: A) The Marvel universe, time traveling, interdimensional, magic-man-done-it (!) explanation from above. If it attempts this, Doom Eternal will be the "worst Doom game ever" as far as I'm concerned. I love Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom, The Master Levels and Doom 64. I do not believe Doom 2016's advancements over the original games automatically make it a superior game. I like Doom 64 more, as-is, than Doom 2016. I like Doom 2016 more than Doom 3. However, I also like Doom 3 for what it is. The point is, I have an order in which I like them but it's close enough that if any of them had something I hated, it would seem like a shit Doom game compared to the others. B) Doom Eternal reveals it has no connection at all to prior Doom games and it is actually a hard reboot. I'd prefer this over the above, even if it did not make much sense considering how Doom 2016 starts and how it's just assumed you're playing the "Doom Marine." C) Doom Eternal reveals Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom and Doom 64 are canon, with the Doom Slayer being the same Doom Marine as the old games. Doom 64's Doom Marine vowed to remain in hell forever and ensure no demon would ever rise again, which is precisely what he did. The twist is, we learn time has no meaning in hell and by the time Doom 2016 begins, he's thousands of years old. In fact, he's so ancient that the UAC and Earth had both been destroyed and rebuilt, with him subsequently being forgotten, between Doom 64 and Doom Eternal. This immense passage of time combined with his hatred of demons, overuse of Berserk packs, PTSD and surrounding hell environment have all honed his demon killing prowess to the point he's come to be regarded as a demigod, despite actually still just being a normal human being when it really comes down to it. Doom 3 is regarded as reboot and ignored. Everything else in Doom Eternal is new. D) Same as above except Doom 3 is not ignored and the tablets from Doom 3 reference the original Doom Marine (or Doom Slayer). The UAC encountered in Doom 2016 is the same rebuilt UAC as in Doom 3, which have resumed their operations on Mars following Betruger's demise in RoE. I feel like this would explain the behavior of the UAC in Doom 2016. They're aware of the demons but continue on anyway. The "Argent Fracture" is the original (now closed) hell portal where you battled the Cyberdemon in Doom 3. I prefer this personally because I'd like to see the new Doom envisioning move ever so slightly away from the comic book approach of Doom 2016 and toward the darker tone of Doom 3. In other words, I'd like it to be a modernized Ultimate Doom or Doom 64. E) Same as 3 & 4 but includes parts of Quake 1 and Quake 3 as canon. The Khan Maykr is the same race as the Vadrigar from Quake 3. Following Doom 64 but prior to becoming trapped, the Doom Marine battled in the arena and was rewarded upgrades to his armor. Everything is explained. Nothing new is introduced. Old concepts are expanded upon. This is my preferred option above all because: 1) Doom and Quake 1 have the same basic plot anyway; 2) It simplifies a Quake 1 reboot, and; 3) It allows them to officially make Quake a franchise focused on the Strogg. Doom would feature demons and teleportation, with elements of Quake 1 merged into it. Quake 3 and Quake Champions should become their own IP and can exist without a plot, like Super Smash Bros. or something.

I've always assumed Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake 1 & Quake 3 all existed in a single universe, even if I would prefer they didn't. Return to Castle Wolfenstein had several references to Heretic & Hexen. Wolfenstein (2009) built on those references much further and eluded to them existing in the same universe but hidden behind a veil. It also had BJ chasing Deathshead (a character introduced in Return to Castle Wolfenstein), with him escaping yet again. Finally, in Wolfenstein: The New Order, there are even more references to Heretic and you kill Deathshead. The Wolfenstein games have not been entirely consistent but they're close. Doom had no apparent connection until Quake 3. Quake 1 merged fantasy (Heretic & Hexen) with science fiction (Doom). Quake 3 kind of blew the doors wide open with the interdimensional "angel" master, the Vadrigar, pulling entities out of their own timelines and into his own for his amusement in the arena. Doom (2016) features several elements from Heretic, Hexen & Quake, while also simultaneously picking up from about where Doom 64 ended. Doom Eternal looks like it is fully merging Doom with the Quake 1 & 3 universes, with additional allusions to Heretic.

I must have missed the part in the bible that described Jesus as a space marine with extreme PTSD and an immense hatred of cybernetic demons spending the bulk of his existence in hell, killing them using a combination of conventional and science fiction weapons. I apparently also missed the part where Jesus was transported to a blood sport arena and forced to fight for the amusement of an interdimensional being that happens to look like an angel.

I see. Thanks for the info. I just assumed it was an authentication card and it should match your box number. I'm not sure why. Overall, I'm very happy with the box. Everything is nicely put together. The Romero head was loose in mine as well but nothing was damaged. It's much bigger than I thought it would be. It's slightly taller than the Arch-Vile and Cyberdemon miniatures.

I received my Beast Box and noticed something weird. The box is #303 but my Limited Run Sigil card says #364? I'm just wondering if anyone else has seen this? I haven't unpacked it yet. Hopefully it isn't missing anything. That really sucks to be missing items or having items loose in the box.

Where does it state or even imply this in any Doom game?

Sure. Runes Quad Damage & Haste Powerups The Unwilling (shared likeness to Quake 1 Zombies) Night Sentinels (shared likeness to Quake 1 Knights, right down to the swords seen in their statues in Doom 2016) Death Knights (featured in both Quake 1 and upcoming Doom Eternal; self-explanatory) Wraiths (shared or similar features to Quake 1 enemies, like the Scrag, Fiend and Vore) The level design in some areas of Doom 2016 also seems inspired by Quake 1. The Crucible level and various powerups use sounds pulled directly from Quake 1. Overall, while most of Doom 2016 is undeniably inspired by Doom, some parts just seem out of place and would work better in Quake 1. This is even more apparent in Doom Eternal. The Marauder looks like something that would have been at home in Quake 1 and seems very odd or out of place in Doom. If you look closely at the image of the Vadrigar I posted above, runes can be seen engraved in his sword and the arena features statues of various champions in the same manner as the statues seen in Argent D'Nur. If you're still not convinced, just search some images of Quake Champions. The Arena Masters are depicted in various maps and look almost identical to the wraiths. You'll also see a lot of the same "heaven" architecture in Quake Champions as seen in Doom Eternal.

Nah. There has never been a single reference to angels anywhere in Doom, much less a reference to a fallen angel such as Lucifer. The Icon of Sin / Baphomet, on the other hand, is featured heavily just about everywhere, from Doom 1 through Doom (2016). The Icon of Sin is plainly heard commanding the demons in Doom (2016) in the sound of Dr. Claw's voice. As I've said previously, the "angels" seen in the reveal are probably not angels as many people seem to be imagining them. Their likeness already existed in Quake 3 and considering how many elements from Quake 1 are seen in Doom (2016), it's possible they're merging the Quake and Doom universes. In Quake 3, the "angels" are a cruel and sadistic race of interdimensional entities referred to as the "Masters" or "Arena Masters," and could be the same entities as the wraiths in Doom (2016). If you compare images of the Vadrigar, the wraiths in Doom (2016) and the "angels" in Doom Eternal, it all matches quite well. If not, I suspect it is all Samuel Hayden (as in, he is the angel). He has already achieved transference once, so it's possible he could continue to do so perpetually into whatever body he chooses. He may see himself as the savior of humanity, deifying himself as a god-like being as the provider of argent energy, and has gone full-blown insane. Basically, he's become Olivia Pierce 2.0. This is equally (if not more) likely as the Quake merge, since it's already alluded to in Doom (2016) in the codex entries surrounding Hayden and the lore tree. Point is, I have a hard time imagining id Software pushing actual angels or Biblical prophecy into the Doom universe. It would divide way too many people and radically change the established Doom lore. Personally, I'd rather Doom Eternal be a Doom game, not the FPS Super Mario Bros. + Diablo 3 game it appears to be at first glance.

Hell in Doom does not seem to have a ruler. The closest is probably Baphomet / John Romero, or the Icon of Sin. The impression I always had from Doom 2 was the Icon of Sin was too powerful to physically exist in hell or on Earth, so a body was being built for it by the demons from the flesh and blood of humanity. Based on level design in Doom 1 + 2 and what you learn in Doom (2016), it seems the demons first invade a realm via teleportation or being summoned. From there, they subvert and assimilate their environment, continually building additional gates or gorenests until enough demons have crossed over that they can build the Icon of Sin and defend it. Finally, once the Icon of Sin has been completed, it pulls the entire realm into hell. The demons themselves do not seem big on masonry or construction jobs, so most of what is seen in hell is just a bunch of different shattered and conquered realms that collectively form hell. The different ages mentioned in the Slayer Testament codex entries seem to be references to conquered realms and powerful demonic entities that arose from or played a part in hell's assimilation of them. Doom's hell does not work well in a Biblical sense because hell is not a physical place in the Bible. IIRC, Judaism seems to regard it as our planet now, where we are judged by God based on our choices in life, following Adam and Eve's exile from the Garden of Eden. Christianity has several interpretations but it largely comes from the Book of Daniel, which speaks of the ten horns (or kings) and the little horn (Anti-Christ) turning humanity away from God, thereby causing the creation of hell (which is still really just the Earth). This eventually leads to Cataclysm, where Earth/hell is utterly destroyed by God and final judgment is passed. Doom's version of hell is obviously based on the popular view of hell, which takes inspiration from Dante's Inferno and more closely resembles Hades or the underworld from Greek mythology.

Personally, I doubt it. I suspect the "angels" seen in the reveal are really the wraiths, which are probably the same species as whatever the Vadrigar from Quake 3 is. Doom (2016) has several elements from Quake in it, so my impression at that time was they were merging Quake and Doom into one universe. So far, Doom Eternal has only reinforced that impression. Based on what is known about the wraiths from Doom (2016) and what can be inferred from Quake 3's "story," the angels are cruel and sadistic. The Vadrigar had designed the "arena" for his own amusement. The lore surrounding the wraiths demonstrates that they seem to view other races as inferior, with the lives of other races having no real value. The original Argent D'Nur was probably built by the Night Sentinels, which was then conquered by the demons. The crucible and/or freeing of the wraiths allowed Samuel Hayden to contact them and obtain a direct source to Argent energy (which is actually provided by the wraiths, not the demons). The codex entries mention Argent D'Nur being conquered by laying a curse upon the wraiths while they were sleeping and the Icon of Sin commands the demons to stop you, stating they must not be freed. Once Samuel Hayden had established a direct source to Argent energy, he and humanity probably built the "heaven" we saw out of reverence for them but was then betrayed and ripped apart when he was no longer useful to them. My assumption is Doom Eternal begins with a dying Samuel Hayden using his interdimensional tether to pull you back, this time to Earth, which has erupted into a cataclysmic war between hell and the wraiths. This is purely speculation of course, and I'm kind of operating on a desire for the Doom Slayer to be the same Doom Marine from the original Doom games. The entire premise behind Doom 64 is that of a trap being set for the Doom Marine by the demons, concluding with the Doom Marine deciding to remain in hell forever to ensure no demon ever rises again, so it is simple to imagine Doom (2016) being a continuation from there. If you consider Doom 3 and the details surrounding hell established in that game, it is reasonable to believe the Doom Marine is hundreds (perhaps thousands) of years old in Doom (2016). This would also explain his UAC armor, and because Earth had already been (nearly) destroyed in the past, why he is treated the way he is in Doom (2016). Samuel Hayden seems to suspect what or who you really are, but it is kind of up to personal interpretation. There are several (very subtle) hints that this may be the case in Doom (2016), with references to the Tower of Babel, the Kadingir Sanctum (Blood Keep) and pieces of lore on the various demons. The Night Sentinels themselves could be a reference to the Knight enemies encountered in Quake, with Death Knights being the undead variant seen in Quake and Quake Champions, Doom Eternal promotional skins and referenced in Doom (2016). I have a few ideas as to how that all plays in but it's pure speculation with nothing to back it up, so I'm going to stop with my thoughts here.

That is very odd. I've seen photos of people unpacking their Beast Boxes, so if you purchased it on the opening day, I would have expected to have it by now. Have you already received your Standard Box or are they shipping them together? If they're coming together, I guess I'm not as surprised. I know Romero mentioned the Beast Box was delayed due to production issues with the pewter head, with additional delays for both boxes due to some production issue with the USB "floppy drives."

Yes. I opened a ticket with Limited Run about 2-3 weeks ago. They said they were working on it and to watch my email inbox for a shipping confirmation. I finally received my Beast Box confirmation yesterday (probably in the same batch as you). It seemed weird to me because Romero made a comment on Twitter that he wanted the Beast Boxes to be shipped out before he put up the free download. I'm not sure how many were made but I did purchase it near the end (on the 23rd), so I just assumed they were pushing them out in order of purchase date.

UV. 100% kills, items and secrets, ignoring par times, with normal map starts. I'll do HMP if it's a slaughter map or has tight ammo conservation and I really like it, otherwise I usually attempt to avoid those types of maps.