DeimosKnight

I read that one of the reasons why Doom 3 was criticized was because the monsters were mainly script animated, and had nothing more to their A.I. behavior. That becomes painfully clear in some recent Doom 3 mods, where the enemies can't climb ladders, walls, or ceilings on their own accord. Since the source code to Doom 3 is released, I wonder if the A.I. can possibly be elevated to the expectation fans originally had for the game. How would one be able to successfully program a A.I. system which would allow the imps to crawl upon all surfaces on its own inclination, lurk in the shadows observing you patiently, and finding clever ways to attack you when you least expect it? Those capabilities for PC game A.I. probably haven't been invented yet, but what programming techniques do we have available now which could bring about significant improvments to Doom 3's A.I.? A pathway net system similar to HL2's (if that is possible to implement)? What can be done?

I was amazed when I watched the two demos for the first time. At the same time, my feelings were scattered. I appreciate the scale of the levels, the details, and the gameplay. It seems like the gameplay is paying homage to Brutal Doom, and yet at the same time borrows gameplay from other games. The weird thing is that the presentation of the game felt like an amalgam Metroid Prime, Halo, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, bits of the Alien films, and bits of Doom. From the first demo, I got very Aliens 3/Terminator 2 meets Metroid Prime vibe from its design. When I saw the reworking of the cyberdemon and the design of the Hell portion of the demo reminded me very much of the art style of Kingdoms of Amalur, which was done by Todd McFarlane. I liked that the design of Hell borrowed influences from fantasy RPGs in its design. The odd thing is that the enemies didn't quite stand out for me, in color, animation, or behavior. I expected the art style for the enemies to stand out more, as they did in the last three games. I think that for Doom's universe, it needs an art style which stands out, and makes you feel the presence of the enemies. Mentioning McFarlane makes me wish the the game had a combined art style of Adrian Carmack and Todd McFarlane. Having the power-ups and items dropping and then instantly getting absorbed was interesting, though it felt like it was from another game. It seemed as if the hero was equipped with an ability that most players would have to earn in other games near the end, like Derek Badger's ability to absorb the coins from his fallen prey in Yahtzee Croshaw's Poacher. The weapons don't stand quite out for me either in their design, but they are effective. I definitely liked the chainsaw parts and physical bare-hand take-downs. I found it clever of the developers to have time slow down as you choose your weapons. The other ability which stood out for me was that scanner device which showed the ghostly traces of the people and demons who were in the room previously. It felt similar to the ghost-seeing ability in System Shock 2, and the Scrye ability from Clive Barker's Undying. On the whole, I do like what I see. Though it doesn't stand out as Wolfenstein: The New Order did in its presentation, it's still impressive. It is different from what I was lead to believe Doom 4 (or plain Doom, as they call it)was to be about. I've only just discovered why, thanks to the Doom wiki and the Kotaku article on Doom 4's development hell. http://kotaku.com/after-the-disaster-we-had-with-rage-because-they-made-s-468213583 I don't know what the final game will be like, or how well the story narrative will be written. I am interested. As a side note, I've been playing Doom 3 recently. I feel like I misjudged the game, because it plays better than I remember. There are elements in there which I feel System Shock 2 and Undying do better, but Doom 3 for me did a very good job on its atmosphere, gameplay, and design. I am playing the game on easy, and the enemies can't get annoying when they back you into a corner. I still Doom 3 could have used some more improvement, but I am impressed with what John Carmack and team managed to accomplish with that game.

Awhile ago, I wanted to draw up some concepts inspired by the Doom Bible if I ever got to program a WAD of my own. I've got some rough sketches that I have yet to be fully colored, but I'm proud of the composition. The first is in the style of a game box cover, and features all the main characters who were originally to be in Doom, and some alternate versions of familiar demons. My ideal Doom Bible Wad is subtitled "The Hellish Moons," Two others are my artistic interpretations of the Techno Demon and the Demon General. The first is pretty much the Baphomet is Cyberdemon form, and the other is like a humanoid giant version of the Pinky. It'll look much better when it's colored.

Here's the finished product. Some color choices I'm not pleased with, but at least the picture looks clearer now. The characters below are taken straight from the Doom Bible, from left to right. I wanted to give them different color variations of the Doom Marine's armor, and suggest what kinds of weapons they like to use. Buddy Dacote: the guy that dies Age: 29 Weight: 202 Height: 6’2” Physical Description: Very fit and powerful, Buddy always wears a hat that says “BEOS” which stands for “Butt End of Space.” Caucasian with brown/Blond hair and green eyes. [I gave him the Doom Marine's green armor, with a skull symbol and the slogan "Born to Joke" on the armor. He gets the rocket launcher) Thi Barrett Age: 22 Weight: 130 Height: 5’6” Physical Description: Red-haired and trim, Thi (Pronounced “Tee”) has piercing blue eyes, and is stout but gorgeous. A toss of hair tends to fall over her forehead. She holds a bewitching dimpled smile in reserve until it proves useful. [I gave dual pistols and a shotgun strapped to her back] Dimitri Paramo Age: 37 Weight: 191 Height: 5’11” Physical Description: Bulky, slightly overweight greek-spaniard with swarthy but unkempt looks. Frizzly dark brown hair explodes and falls off his head. [I thought that him being a weird character, he deserved the chainsaw as his weapon of choice) Lorelei Chen Age: 27 Weight: 151 Height: 5’10” Physical Description: Muscular, tall woman, attractive, but has strangely too-intense eyes. Oriental featured in the brown eyes and black hair, which is drawn back into a large knot. Scar on left shoulder from rock-climbing accident. [I gave her a heavy duty long rifle] John “Petro” Pietrovich Age: 34 Weight: 190 Height: 5’9” Physical Description: Black balding man with thick eyebrows. Missing last joint of right ring finger. Brown eyes. [Rest assured, he does have a balding spot behind that hair. I gave him the Plasma Cannon] I tried to do the drawings fit the character descriptions as I could. Dimitri and Buddy are my favorites. As for the demons, the two dark red guys with the minigun arms are the Bruiser Brothers, the Blue Ox cyberdemon is the not so cool rendition of the Technodemon, the winged demon is the imp, the pale Doom guy with the shotgun is a Former Human, and the big lavender monster behind is the Demon General. The gigantic green hand on the moon behind with the reptilian is an ancient demon being awakened in space. I didn't know that Doom's original subtitle was Evil Unleashed. That does sound better. I was trying to go for a subtitle that made me think of games like Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (because the Doom Bible kind of was going for the type of games Looking Glass was making). They are not wearing speedos, but Doom Marine armor. They just didn't look as clear in the sketch as they are here. It was all colored by hand, though I didn't have the best colors nearby. I may want to recolor it again (fortunately I scanned the original). The reason I drew this was because I wanted to visualize what the characters would look like, and what weapons they would use. Looking at the Doom Bible again, the kind of experience Tom Hall was going for sounds like an episodic, fast-paced blend of System Shock, Half-Life, Rise of the Triad, and Duke Nukem. What effort it would take to develop on current Doom ports.

Sorry, I didn't know. I'll amend that the next time. And to answer your question, not everyone is skinny. The crazy haired mustached man with the chainsaw has a paunch belly. The sketches will look better realized when they're finished.

I recall a website for an attempted System Shock Doom TC long ago, but I can't find any trace of the site anymore (it was shut down by request from the IP holders). I myself have considered making an System Shock-inspired game with Doom's engine. I'm curious to see how System Shock's graphics, levels, enemies, and weapons would be recreated for the Doom engine. It's a shame no one still has completed such mod yet.

I guess ambitious minds think alike, eh?

How about borrow a bit from Super Metroid, the Mother Brain transformation, for the last boss battle? Bring back the Baphomet, have you defeat it after only four rocket blasts to the brain. After it's supposedly dead, it comes back to life, rips apart the wall, and we see the head attached to a titanic goat body, and its heading right for you! While it's stalking you, you're climbing the tops of derelict buildings and trying to aim some rockets into its brain in the process. It would destroy everything in its path, try to bite you, and then teleport multiple monsters to hinder you... That would be a really hard boss.

So, I managed to buy both Ultimate Doom and Doom II from the id Software store, and I was surprised and impressed with the way their downloads were packaged. Unlike Wolfenstein 3D and Spear of Destiny, which they did not bother to pack with a DOSemulator (you have to do the emulation yourself, which I found lazy on their part), Ultimate Doom and Doom II were designed to work on modern machines. They were equipped with a pre-game options menu where you could choose which level level to play (which is really awesome), your choice of video resolutions, and other cool options. You guys are probably already aware of this, so here's the problem. Whenever I play either game, they break out into crazy psychedelic colors. I read that such discoloration is caused by incompatible video cards, and I'm not quite sure my computer has any card. I am playing them with a Lenovo Windows XP laptop, so I'm wondering if id's package is more compatible with full hardware computers more than laptops. I managed to play both smoothly on the Doomsday engine, but I really want to play the Dooms as they were originally played. Is this problem familiar with anyone here? Is there a patch to rectify this problem, or is my machine just not compatible with the package? I think it's ridiculous that a game which could function on my laptop just fine with DOSbox or Doomsday, but it can't function at all well with id's own special emulator.

You're right. It is Doom95. After reading the part saying that it is long outdated, I'm now even more confused with id. Why in cyerhell is id selling outdated ports of the two Doom games? I would much prefer to run it on DOSbox, if they just gave the game like they did Wolf and Spear. I'm beginning to think that id is really not caring too much about the quality of their products on their store site. 3D Realms is way more dedicated than id when it comes to selling their classic games with proper emulators. What is up with id's main site store? Thanks so very much for helping me, man. I'm glad that the Doom community is much more in tune with better ways to play Doom. Id needs quality experts on their site.

So, what you're saying is that Lenovo laptops really don't have a graphics card, and the discoloration of Doom is caused by that? Great,

Avoozl said: "They might mean not a recreation of the first Doom like Doom 3 was, judging by previously leaked screenshots it looks like it might be a recreation of Doom 2." (It would help if I knew where the quote button is on my user interface. I don't know how others are able to do it!) A recreation of Doom 2 would still count as a reboot, regardless. I certainly agree with the Doom 2 setting part, but I am more inclined to believe that it is a continuation Doom 2 rather than a recreation, because it would count as a sequel to Doom 3. Or maybe it could work as a standalone recreation, but it would still make it a reboot like Doom 3. Another quote: "Urgh, that seems awfully familar to DNF." Actually, I was thinking more in the lines of titanic versions of the kind of bosess you had in Quake 1. DNF's bosses were not puzzle based like the Baphomet, Shub-Niggurath, or Cthon. Well, that's what I would want, anyway. EDIT: Now I see the quote button, except it it's where the regular forum is, and not on the user interface!

Actually, I was the first guy on this site to speculate before this forum thread began the Doom 4 was most probably a direct sequel to Doom 2. I had it posted originally, but then it was deleted for some reason. However, the moderator thankfully brought this thread into being, so we could discuss it. I wonder if he still has a copy of my first failed post. It was a dead giveaway when Todd said that it was neither a reboot nor a sequel "to Doom 3." He didn't necessarily say it was not going to continue the previous Dooms. The "not a reboot" part cancels out the belief that Doom 4 will be another reboot, so it's something in between. So, I logically deduced that it most probably be a sequel to Doom 2. For those who think it doesn't make sense, let me explain why it makes sense. Doom 3's main antagonist, Dr. Betruger, was dealt with in the expansion, so they couldn't continue Doom 3's story (not that it would be a hard thing to do). Also, as I've observed, Doom 3 was not seen too favorably by all Doom fans or gamers expecting more (even though it's just been re-released to prep players with hype), so id must've thought that they should return to Doom's roots with Rage technology they've created. I think they are deliberately moving away from Doom 3's story and look for a return to Doom 1+2's story and look for the fans. I think there's a passable story that could take place after Doom 2. The marine, after defeating the Icon of Sin, has to wade through the ruins of Hell to get back to Earth, and he emerges in a vast city which is overrun by the remnants of Hell, led by other uber-powerful demons like the Baphomet in certain districts. While simultaneously helping newfound survivors, the Marine must blast through the demonic hordes and defeat each of these enormous demons, who are just as hard to fight as the Baphomet (or worse). Their idea for Doom 4's story may be waaaaaaaaaay simpler than mine, but a Doomer can dream, right?

hardcore_gamer, just because Aliens and Doom feature a corporation as being amoral or unethical, that doesn't make it anti-capitalist, or hateful of every single damn corporation. Usually, depictions of those kinds of corporations can be self-referential. Game companies certainly aren't guiltless. EA, for instance, has a infamous reputation for being a purely greedy corporation (based upon their rushed games and poor treatment of employees), and Bethesda is known for its overzealous impulse for lawsuits. Even Hollywood has a reputation of being motivated purely by profit, and I think the Weyland Corporation could be seen as a subtle jab at Hollywood business (as well as one of the corporations Gez mentioned). Keep in mind, I was being satirical when I claimed the UAC made a bargain with Hell to boost profits. No one's being ad hominem about corporations in the Doomworld forum, so relax. We all know that not all corporations are evil: only EA, IBM, SPECTRE, and that one corporation which Dilbert works for. (Just Joking!)

The UAC in Doom, and most particularly in Doom 3, is modeled off of the Weyland-Yutani Company from Aliens. The most obvious example is in Doom 3 when Betruger claims that the UAC is only concerned about making money (which is what the Company in Aliens is also only concerned with). If id wanted to be even more closer to Aliens, perhaps the UAC thought that the denizens from Hell could make a pretty nifty superweapon? Non, that would make the UAC seem like a bunch of morons. Or-- What if the main staff of the UAC have made pacts with the demons already, for the promise of greater glory and wealth? That seems more likely, since every ominous business has established the Faustian Model as the most efficient way to be successful. Unless the demons decide to outsource the company to the deepest level of Hell... Yep. The UAC are run by morons.

After reading Tom Hall's DOOM BIBLE, I was intrigued by the idea of Tom Hall's vision of DOOM actually being made. From what I've gathered from the design document, what Tom Hall had in mind for DOOM resembled an Origin Systems, Inc. game. In other words, a System Shock 1/Ultima Underworld styled game with demons. It certainly involved puzzles, and a story driven gameplay, and a different assortment of demonic enemies. So, I was wondering: how could Tom Hall's DOOM be made? As as complex WAD heavy mod, or a standalone game made with the freeware DOOM engine? The other idea I had was for it to be done on System Shock 1's engine, but that is obviously kind of stupid. Besides, SS1's engine is not modifiable, and I think id doesn't allow trademark games to be made with engines outside of theirs. There is however a reverse engineered version of SS1's engine in progress, but it still wouldn't be possible to do it that way. The reason I was considering that option, was because SS1 is true 3D while DOOM is not, I was into that whole retro-3D Origin look. Still, there is the Doomsday engine, which renders Doom three-dimensional enough. Considering what the DOOM community can do with the engine now, maybe the engine can be tweaked to have a SS1 feel and look to it. Putting my idea for carrying out Hall's DOOM, doesn't anyone here think it's possible for the DOOM described in the DOOM BIBLE can be developed with classic DOOM technology?

Doom 4 should start off where Doom 2 left off. It should bring back the original art style of Doom 1+2, but beefier and amplified. The Pinky Demon, for instance, should be a hulking, tank sized version of the original. It would be dusty whitish pink, and very muscular and formidable back legs. It would be possible to hide from it, except he has the ability to smell where you are. If you're hiding in a building, he'd tear the wall apart. If you're on the rooftop, he'll crawl up to get you. The ultimate test of Doom 4 should be where the hero has to fight a whole legion of these things in the city. Doom 4 should also bring back the original former Humans, and they should behave more like demonically possessed human soldiers than mere zombies. Fighting against them would be like fighting a demonic Rainbow Six squad. If the game is set on huge cityscapes, the player should be allowed to explore the city and enter the buildings like on huge hub system. When all the fighting's done on the city, then the finale takes place back in space where the last of portal of Hell is. The last boss should put the Baphomet and Shub-Niggurath to utter shame. Advanced A.I. and gameplay would be nice.

http://blendogames.com/older.htm This is the link contains the download to the closest attempt to a Doom Bible-ish game. It's Barista 1, which I mentioned before. The style of the gameplay is more remniscent of Bungie's Marathon, and its story is told in a similar manner as the Marathon games (through the computer screens). Chung uses sounds from Half-Life and Wolfenstein, some unused enemy sprites from Marathon, and the gas mask from Rise of the Triad. He himself told me that Barista 1 was meant as an engine experiment rather than an installment for an ongoing series, but he does the experiment so well that I wish he did more Doom-engine games like this one... Anyway, thanks for clarifying some things about Barista 1 for me, Gez. I knew that strafing was a part of Doom. What I meant to say is that becuase it has the WSAD keys, it's easier to strafe for me. I need to give ZDoom a try. I do hope someone does a jStrife. I know that I'm bumping an old thread, but I wanted to learn more from the wisdom of my fellow Doomers. You know what you're doing, and you're good at it. @Xaser: I am all about which engine to use. ZDoom and jDoom might be better options. I was only going on about Strife because kmxexii mentioned it as an example of Doom's engine successfully implementing elements which were scrapped from the Tom Hall's Doom. I think he was referring to the gameplay and experience rather than to Strafe's engine, so I may have become a little too enthusiastic for that version of the DE. Anyhow, I am more concerned at the moment at visualizing how the game would look and play, rather than jumping into programming immediately. I was working on some concept art on how two of the bosses mentioned in the DBible would look like. One looked like a full bodied version of a Pinky, the other an Ox cyberdemon with a really big gun, and one of the female characters from ROTT and the DB. I need to find the time to do more concepts. I want to use both the art direction of Doom, System Shock, and Ultima Underworld for inspiration.

I've been thinking: thanks to the suggestion of a fellow doom marine that Strife would be the choice to mod with, what if Tom Hall's DOOM were programmed through a Doomsday engine version of Strife, or a jStrife? Assuming if someone has thought of converting Strife to the a j version, whould it make the gameplay even more flexible? I've also checked out Brendon Chung's Blendo 1, which is an awesome experiment he did with the freeware Doom engine. He basically used aspects of the Doom bible for inspiration, used some rejected sprites and gameplay aspects from Bungie's Marathon series, added some sounds from Half-Life, a very Cacodemon enemy of his own design, and implemented the ability to freelook and strafe in modern FPSs. Check it out at Blendo games among his free downloads. It's the closest attempt I've seen to program a Doom experience which resonated with Hall's Doom Bible. While Strife and Chung's Barista 1 could serve as influences, I'm geared towards more of a System Shock 1/Ultima Underworld-like experience. Well, not completely. Unlike those games, I would implement the ability to mouselook. SS1 did have the ability to duck, jump, lean to either side, and also had full 3D environments. So, I'm thinking that Hall's Doom would be programmed in a Doomsday version of Strife, using similar but a more enhanced version of SS1's interface, level design, combat, and experience. I'll get back on how that might work. Perhaps I could draw it out to demonstrate what it may look like.

Doomguy777, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT DOOM 4 WOULD BE!!!! FINALLY!! SOMEONE ELSE GETS IT!!!! I mean the part where DOOM 4 will be a true sequel to DOOM 2. I hope it will be a sequel to DOOM 2, that way they could revive the old art direction of the first two DOOMs, and enhance them with the idTech 5 engine. Excuse the excitement in my voice.

I still think it'll continue the story of DOOM II: HELL ON EARTH, and bring back the designs of the original monsters. (Remember, the possibility of a sequel had only been ruled out for DOOM 3, not DOOM 2, so my theory might have some ground). By the way, are snapshots and trailers of DOOM 4 supposed to be released to the public by now?

Sodaholic said:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DeimosKnight said: stuff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I highly doubt Doom was ever planned to have anything like that. There's not much point in using the Strife engine with my plans. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Wait a minute, Sodaholic. I didn't suggest you use the Strife engine, Marnetmar did! I only asked if you were going to have outdoor locations in your TC, and if you were going to create new bosses. Why is it that the content of what I say is designated as "stuff"! Never mind. I guess my post was not quite clear in the first place. Carry on.

Actually, someone at id only said that Doom 4 wasn't a sequel to Doom 3, and only Doom 3. The quote is on the Doom 4 wiki article, and I've quoted it myself too in my beginning posts. If it isn't a sequel to Doom 3, or another Doom reboot (which remakes would classify under), then what would it be? Remember, Hollenshead didn't say it wouldn't be a sequel to Doom 2. Only Doom 3 was ruled out (and Doom 3 doesnt count as sequel to the first two Dooms anyway.) If it isn't a remake, reboot, sequel to either Doom 2 or Doom 3, what is it? A prequel? Come to think of it, Tom was asked if it might be a prequel, but he didn't answer that question either. What's your speculation, AirRaid?

Sodaholic, do you intend to create new bosses that will better fit your approach to DOOM's alpha and beta, or will maintain the old bosses, but with new aplha/beta styled maps? I recall also in the beta that models of other DOOM marines were present. Will you have interactive marines in the game, such as allies or a weapons dealer, and perhaps have an interactive intro where you enter the base before the demons emerge? For example, you could start the game outside of the base, with your ship docked in the front, and your allies venturing in before you do. It could almost be like WOLFENSTEIN 3D's first episode (where you supposed to enter the base, not escape from it) in reverse, with more unexpected situations and more interactivity (because the episode began right when BJ killed the guard, so, therefore, DOOM EU begins where the marines first venture in). Excuse the weirdness of my questions. It's an impressive project, still.

No need to apologize, TheSpazztikOne. That's pretty much what I meant when I said that Tom Hall's DOOM felt a bit like SYSTEM SHOCK 1 or ULTIMA UNDERWORLD (both of which are FPS RPGs). I doubt that he intended for you to fight with all characters at once, though that sounds like an interesting idea in itself: no matter which character you pick, the other characters work and fight beside you. The idea certainly sounds more ambitious than the system used in RISE OF THE TRIAD, or, similarly, BLOOD 2: THE CHOSEN, where you could only choose one character, and none of the other characters fought with you. Oh, by the way Marnetmar, I checked out Sodaholic's DOOM EU thread, and I find it AWESOME! Hopefully, he may add some interactive NPCs to make the mod even more interesting (and Demon cages where you can stick the beta bayonet into the demons from a safe distance!). I'll have to check the thread out some more. Thanks for the responses, everybody.