Whymes5

The Pre Release isn't really much different. I just did some finishing touches after running the entire wad in singleplayer again and reading over the old comments again. Edit: LOL though... The music on map01 and so with brutal doom is just hilarious, all of the carnage with the happy music.

I've uploaded it to /idgames, so there's no going back now. The original post has been updated with the final version. Look out for this to be hosted on live servers and for it to show up on /idgames in the coming days. In the meantime, the original post has the wad available until then.

I've updated the original post with the newest version. This will basically be the final release version, it will be officially released with no more updates once the /idgames archive is finished with adding it (and the zdaemon event is held). So about 1 more week depending on when the event is held, and it should be up on /idgames. Thanks for the help everyone, I feel like this is a pretty solid wad due to the help I got.

Well, as you can see earlier in the thread, in fact some people even like the map 9 music choice. I feel like you're judging some of the tracks based on the source material rather than how it fits the map... Thanks for the comments, noone else had said anything that you said already. But some of these bugs were introduced in the newer beta, that's probably why.

ZDaemon thursday survival or friday cooperative, not sure which yet. By the way, the lifts didn't work because doom builder automatically divided the lift sector into two due to the trigger line, so the nearest floor was actually at the same height, so it wouldn't move.

Yeah, I already fixed those problems in the newest beta, sorry I had to stealth update the beta in the first link. I'm not releasing any more betas for a while since I'm waiting on the wad to be hosted for an event.

There isn't really a better port to use. Obviously if you want the most people to be able to play your wad, use doom2 format. I have a feeling that on these doomworld forums more people will suggest to map in doom2, but on zdoom forums, zdaemon or zandronum forums for example they will suggest zdoom. It depends on what you want to accomplish. I prefer the zdoom format because it's flexible, but my future projects will probably be in doom2 format since it's actually not too bad if you use 1. a limit removing variety, and 2. know tricks to make some cool effects even in doom format. Since nothing you said is against just mapping in doom2 format, I'd go with aiming to be compatible with prboom as was suggested, so test it with prboom and map it with the doom2 format in doom builder. If you ever find that you want to use some zdoom only features, you can always change the project to a zdoom format (but it's a bit tricky).

Yes.

I meant that thats usually the biggest reason for misaligned textures. I actually didn't notice really any as I said, although texturing was pretty bad in general, misaligned isnt a word Id use to describe it... You can't "export" a map wrong to mess up textures. The texture offsets are stored in the map data, it would take some big fuckup to mess those up.

The aligned textures I actually didnt really notice too many, the biggest contributor I think is just to just always unpeg lines when you move the floor of that sector which makes either a lower or upper texture visible.

Well, I meant mostly map31, Lol. But I just wanted to make sure it didn't bug out on you or anything on map32. The secret exit is literally in the same room as the exit switch, if you look on the wall with the door on the inside, it's just barely visible. It's almost too well hidden, maybe I'll make it a tiny bit easier to find. But most people who really are interested can always just warp to that map. As far as any issues on map31, it would mostly have to be changes to thing placement, since I'd rather not change the geometry much unless I really had to or it sort of defeats the purpose of it. Maybe I'll start another megawad after I take a short break, this time maybe with a buddy or two so I'm not so overwhelmed. Making this wad was a journey I guess, but quality was worse in a few places cause I had to 'churn out' 32 entire maps, if you will. Not sure what else there is to talk about here, so again thanks for the testing and you'll definitely be credited and it's pretty cool that someone played the whole thing.

Yes, if you could reivew map31 and 32 I would be even happier, but if not, OK ... There's secret exit on map15, it's just a well hidden switch right next to the real one, Lol. I will add a megaarmor in the secret, and add some extra armor in the battlefield. I've gone back and add armor in most of the episode 1 maps too, it actually does seem a lot better then, I've found after looking at the old maps the tough ones are the ones with no armor.. I found the problem in map30 with getting stuck, the trigger linedef is a little too far up to reach in most cases, the only way to trigger it is to actually walk out when you're already at the top (originally was added for coop support) I think removing the random stalagmites will help too, I noticed you didn't mention them but right now as we are talking I noticed them sprinkled around. After your comment about them in map15, I took them out of most maps since they don't add much detail and are just a hassle. Map 31's layout may seem simple, and the overall theme not too complex, but the map design and layout I guess you could say has a dark origin, and I don't want to spoil it, I guess I will just keep it my little secret unless someone figures it out. Just know that the map design wasn't fully created by me.

I'm not quite sure what to do there since you can wake all the enemies up, if I don't add a blocking line there it gets incredibly hard to force your way in that room. I'll take out that blocking line. And yeah, thats the intended path. I'll make it a bit more obvious. This map is very easy for a map28 on a cumulative run. However, try it from a pistol start, it's really hard from pistol in the first room. But I can add a few more monsters near the later parts of the map. I'm still working on tweaking the difficulty here. I think it could be a tiny bit harder, especially considering how much easier it is than map13/14 I think. But not too much more, it's a pretty rough start with a pistol on that map, the SSG is quite late in the map (as is the blue armor). The BFG lowers after you kill a certain amount of monsters. Right now, to win you just have to kill a certain key monsters every wave. I didn't like how you had to kill every last monster in map15, so this time only certain monsters raised the kill counter (hell knights and barons if I recall). This map is still probably going to get some tweaks, I'm not happy with it myself. Maybe I could just make it "survive x minutes"? Originally it was going to have a custom monster only vulnerable to the BFG, but I couldn't quite get the scripting and everything working for that especially to be compatible on all ports. By the way, a portal should open in the starting room which lets you get back up if you step off of there, did it not open? Right now the boss attacks just consist of spawning 1. low tier monsters at the location of the two teleport pads throughout the fight (1/13 chance of an archvile), 2. 10 minute automatic death if the level isn't finished yet, 3. every 30 seconds or so some red areas will appear 5 seconds after the text warning which will do a big amount of damage, and 4. every time lightning strikes, two random medium tier monsters will spawn in a random spot. Thanks for finishing the wad, it's not a small thing to play through a whole megawad to test it like that, your help was great.

I was assuming that the project was vanilla compatible.

And, one more thing: As far as seeing this map in a real wad, I would not rate it very high. But for a first map it's actually very good, in that case I rate it very high. But the only reason I would not rate it high in a real wad is two reasons (well, one): 1. Maps should have fun fights. 2. If not that, the map should at least be interesting, look good, be aesthetically pleasing, etc. There's not really either of those in the map right now. I think you just need to work on the overall presentation (and as I said, try to add some more varied fights instead of monsters in front to mow down while running forward at 50mph). You'll get better at the overall presentation with time. So just work on the fun fights. As for everyone talking about the ammo and health being too much.. I don't really want to tell someone there's too much because the changes are usually become too drastic and then there isn't enough. I actually had almost died at one point, but when I started running the rest of the map fast it actually got easier. EDIT: Just opened the map in doombuilder and noticed something else. When you make pillars in a room for example, don't make a sector and raise it up to the ceiling. Instead, draw the sector, then select every linedef, and hit delete with all of the linedefs selected. This makes a void which looks much better on the automap and also generally looks better, it behaves slightly differently in a few cases too, I believe.

Just played the wad. Here's my comments: Usually you'll want to use the E1M1 or MAP1 slot for a 1 map wad. If you want to use music from the other wad in that slot while still being vanilla compatible, just add a lump to the wad with the same name as the music as the first level, and it will overwrite the music. Secondly, the desk right when you spawn seems like an odd texture, that's normally a middle texture so for players that know that it just seems like an odd choice. Overall the texturing was a little bland, you don't even have to add more detail so much as just vary the texturing a bit, at the very least, although detail was a bit low. Another thing, most of the encounters in the map didn't require fighting, you give enough health,armor, and weak opposition and easy to escape paths so that I pretty much just skipped every fight. Finally, some of the rooms were super cramped. The small computer maze room was tiny as fuck, try not to ever have hallways less than 64 units wide. I kept getting caught on the diagonal hallways as well. Overall, if this was your first map ever it was quite good. Better than my first map. Try to reduce the amount of rooms in the maps. Instead, even something like just a doorway helps. One way that helps is to make large rooms (like the starting room), then add various sectors inside of the room, raise their floor heights, lower some, add a few walls (but not complete ones), and you basically got yourself a nice, interesting battlefield. Speaking of doors, try to set the doors back 8 or 16 or 32 pixels back, it generally looks better and lets you have doors in rooms higher than 128 units high. For example, do this: ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- _______----------_______ _______----------_______ ----------DOOR-------------- _______----------_______ _______----------_______ ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- Right now, you have this: ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ----------DOOR-------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- ---------------------------- I hope that little ascii art there makes sense. However, the difficulty would have felt appropriate for, say, MAP01 or E1M1 of a megawad. EDIT: Forgot to mention, you did do a few good things. I noticed no doors which weren't properly pegged, also having monster closets open up in previously visited areas is a good idea. Overall I'd say just add some more interesting encounters. The amount of health and ammo was spot on pretty much, good job there.

Yeah, pretty simple map. To be honest it was just filler due to mapper's block at the time, I quit working on the wad for a good year or so after that point due to it. The other secret is incredibly hidden, maybe I'll add a tiny hint. Another experimental map. You're supposed to just BARELY be able to reach the last room with the invulnerability, it's really a dash against time before it runs out. Of course if you pick up the megasphere and all cells, this map is quite easy actually, because even if the invuln runs out you'll have a nice cushion for a while. So in order to add additional challenge I made the teleport room hard, because even if you die in there at least it doesn't take long to get back. I've done it on a pistol start before. I'll take out the triangular holes. I'm surprised you survived too, this is actually one of the few maps I playtested a lot to make sure the whole sequence works, I can never seem to exit if my health is any less than around 100% or so in the last room (with the blue armor) since I always seem to take a rocket to the face. I did have an idea for what was supposed to be going on there. But I didn't want intermission texts between every single map. I'll see if I can explain everything with less screens and add one there. But then again, I sort of like how you just end that map and enter this one, with no explanation ever given in game. In fact, in the credits screen, you'll see another little easter egg which I think adds to the effect slightly. So I'm kind of torn between what to do there. I'm a bit worried about this map since it's a little odd, but I'm glad you thought it was interesting. There is no SSG on this map, so it will be considerably harder on a pistol start. I don't really want to use a spider demon there because it would really be no threat there, there is lots of cover and ammo around the area, and as its a map25 I at least want it to be a little more harder. I hope you don't find map26-29 frustrating, because in particular map27 is extremely difficult in the old beta because the pits are instant kill and they are all over the place. I recommend downloading the new beta so you can play map28 too, nobody has tested it yet (but it's up to you.). Thanks for the amazing work again. Although you seemed to have a few less comments on these maps.

I guess I am glad about that, though. It's still not much harder to move things around, than to construct entirely new level architecture. Although I know some places are sort of weak in that respect too. I think overall the damaging floors are too much, I noticed when watching mouldy's demo of map14 he always lost 20% health just from the start at coffin. At this point its sort of beating a dead horse, though. Just let me know where the thingcount is low, I'll fix it up, and release another beta in a week or two. (After adding a little more detail in some maps).

Well I do have to say, map14 is the hardest map in the wad probably. So if that puts you off, just know that it only gets easier from there, so if you think you might want to keep playing, try map 16-30. Map1-15 and 16-30 have their own difficulty progression. But I don't think that even map27-30 is nearly as hard, since it's a lot more generous on item pickups. There is armor in almost every level, but its mostly in secrets. I think the real problem is the reliance on secrets. I watched your demo mouldy. It was very helpful. I'm still concerned you had to save to beat it, but I can see that this time the deaths seemed more reasonable, and more due to map problems. Although I think the reason for most of them was that you took too much damage in the encounter in the room with the star. Really, all I have to do to fix that is to add a few more medkits. You still seemed a little worried about using the BFG. Really I understand saving BFG shots is a good idea, but running around with 200 cells is more than enough. It's not a slaughter map as you can see by the monster count and other maps so really saving more than 2 shots is probably overkill. But I can tell you are not a noob doom player after watching the new demo. Just don't see why you're still so scared to use the cells. For everyone playing, this wad really is meant to be played with freelook. It's a zdoom wad and as such I didn't really feel any reason to make it cater to no freelook, since it's not trying to be based on the original doom. Another thing, it's very hard to balance a wad for both singleplayer, cooperative, and all difficulty levels, AS WELL as trying to balance both pistol starts and cumulative runs. This is leading to some difficulty in thing placement, and anyone that has mapped with a focus on trying to support all types would know. I was pretty certain I added more health to map9. Ill have to look into it again. The original idea of that map was actually to make no health at all, and have it just be a map where your health is whittled down 'til the end, it's a sort of symbolic map. As you can see, most people don't seem to like that. So I scrapped that idea. I think the health I added might be flagged to only appear in cooperative, on accident. Most of these maps have little experimental design elements incorporated into them which I don't think some people realize were intentional. If I played through plutonia the first time, I would probably say it sucked too. I was only able to beat that wad on UV after learning each level, and many deaths (no saves). I think beating go2it alone took me a good week. And on some of the maps, I tried to emulate some gameplay from that wad. I found plutonia's gameplay pretty influential to me.. Of course, some of the maps are designed differently (generally less chaos, more rooms and less height variation, etc.), but the idea is pretty much the same; the armor is highly important, mistakes are heavily penalized, and each map has ways to clear it which are far more efficient than other ways. I'm just curious, do you guys also not like plutoinia? Noone really likes only being able to beat a level by just knowing what comes next, but really in a lot of wads and even other old video games, that really is the best way to beat them easily. Finally, I hope everyone doesn't play a beta expecting it to be totally fun. As you can see there is some mis-balance in areas. That's why it's a beta. So if you want to play it just to play through, wait until it's released. You'll have a much better time, trust me. Sorry for the wall of text. Just trying to explain some of the criticisms. But the critcism is really good, I don't want a bunch of people saying it's good. Even if I can't use it for this wad, I can always use the feedback in future maps. To death112: I noticed the notes you emailed me mentioned a lot of secrets being given away in the automap. I had already fixed that in the most recent beta before I read your comments. Your other comments were helpful. Thanks.

It's supposed to sort of be a new episode introduction. I'll add another area or two and maybe change some of the encounters to be a bit more chaotic. Thanks for the review again.

I do see what mouldy says, but the thing that seemed annoying to me the most was not picking up the ammo. I can see how some might want to skip the first baron fight. The problem with that is that two archviles are in the door beyond it, so you'll probably want to clear that room out first. I thought that would seem obvious after the first death but mouldy kept trying to run past them which is why you ran into trouble. There are no safe places for a few rooms. I will add a few more ammo boxes near the start of the map and take a few out near the end, will probably change the maze a bit too. There's a secret near the shotgun. If you look at the wall, one of them is textured differently. To get to it, you have to get up on the raised platform around the room, straferun through the gaps by the doors, then go open that wall. I think it's pretty well hidden, maybe a little too much, but I thought it was a little bit unique so didn't take it out. It contains even more SG ammo though... This was mostly an experimental map, I guess it works for some and not for others. I'll think about replacing the revenants, I think I had the same problem when I played through it once. I don't know if you are using the newer version I posted or not, but I did change some of the doors since your comments made me realize that the wad is sort of a door-fest in some maps. Noted.. The original intention of the final area was to make it so that fighting wasn't such a good option, but since some people will want to kill every monster I'll add some more ammo boxes here for that. It was supposed to be a dash to the exit, since the intermission screen shortly before mentions "the only way to survive is to escape" or something along those lines. There actually is a green armor near the beginning of a level, but it's again, in a secret. I'll probably move it outside and add a medkit in there or something instead. Again, your comments have been really really helpful so far, and while I haven't quite dealt with all of them even in the newer beta, I'm still working on addressing some of them. Unfortunately in some of the maps the "door-hiding, hallway monster fights" are built in such a way so that removing them will take significant level redesign. I can fix some of it, but some of it just might have to stay in. Since this was my first megawad, I'll probably just have to leave some of those areas as is. Some of the maps don't have that problem, and I noticed it's usually the newer maps.

Ever heard of an auto map? It's not really that big of a maze, either... By the way, there are even mazes in the IWAD maps. And this is the only one in the entire wad. I guess I can take it out though. But nobody complained about it yet so I didn't know people cared. Anyways, I don't know what kind of viable strategy involves ignoring picking up ammo, then complain about being low on ammo. I found out that I put a little on the low side of ammo in some of the first episode maps, but again on the other hand, there is almost way too much ammo in episode 2. From a pistol start I ended map29 with almost max of all ammo, even with lots of cyberdemons in that map... I probably seem a little harsh back. It's good that I have feedback from people that play it differently, it's the whole point of this thread asking for testers. But then again, punching everything to death is also a way to play it, and I don't know if I want to build a map based around letting people do that to finish... I was just pointing out some things that looked weird in the demo. Original post updated with an updated beta for any interested.

Strangely enough on zdaemon the water isnt deep enough to slow you. I'll make it 8 pixels shalllower. Thanks for review. As far as you map08 review nxGrangel, I'll keep them in mind. Ive never played the wad under UV.

No offense, but I can see why you might have given up. I only watched your Map 14 FDA, and you seem like you weren't playing so well. Why do I say this? It's the simple things, like not grouping up the barons when you use the BFG. If they aren't grouped up, you won't do nearly as much damage. Also you seem like you're not playing very aggressively, it seemed like you were scared to shoot your gun or something. There is enough ammo to UV max that map on SP, I tested it myself after I got some feedback in this thread. Don't be scared to shoot. Another thing I noticed was you kept dying, and when you respawned you wouldn't even pick up the SSG and ammo sometimes that was RIGHT there when you spawn. Most people actually thought that map 14 wasn't so bad (not just on this thread, but in general). And I don't think it can just be chalked up to map familiarity, because the sort of things I'm talking about are things that apply to any map. I lost count of how many times you died to simple mistakes. And I'm just comparing that demo to other demos of the WAD people have PM'd me - they didn't have as much trouble as you. I'm not sure what your feedback that you're speaking of would be, and that's why I'm bringing it up. So now I kind of wonder what it is about the wad you don't like (keep in mind, I do know there's some issues with it hence why it's in testing).

Sure. Just play and leave comments here. But I will probably update the beta to a newer one by the end of the day today. So that people can test map28 and also make it a little less stressful to test.