Nanomen

One thing that bugged me in Doom 2016 was the lack of sizeable blood decals and shit, and I've seen so many times in this gameplay video where a GIGANTIC dismembered slab of flesh slams onto the ground from like a Mancubus or something and doesn't leak even a pint of blood. Also a little disappointing that bodies still disappear so you can't see the path of annihilation you've carved into the environment like you could Doom 1 or 2. I wouldn't mind them bumping down the environment details for features that make the game world feel way more impressionable and responsive to the player, like I'm the one causing all the carnage and bloodshed instead of it all being there before and making it marginally worse: something (imo) Doom '16 completely forwent, getting carried away with excessive amounts of scenery gore. I know these are just, like, perfectionist nitpicks, but the gore and ultra-violence is one of the main selling points of both Doom 16 and Eternal and it could be done so much better! I've wanted to see it improve for a really, really long time -- ever since I beat Doom '16 -- and I don't want them to miss that opportunity in the case they *might ( *probably :( ) won't have a modding community! I dunno, maybe it's just me to find it that important. Still excited as fuck for this game to come out, though, the rest of it looks absolutely fabulous aside from some other tiny little nitpicks I have with it (like, "if they're gonna go full classic design with the plasma gun, that sound is pathetic and should be more like that original weird-ass noise it made with some added bass punch to it and the projectiles should be a bit bigger and enemies should explode in a brighter flash", shit like that.)

I wouldn't really care if they used less polygons to get actual dead bodies and gore this time, to be honest. They can always save the more HQ models for later in time when hardware advances enough to handle them; probably not gonna happen, though... Or maybe they can have them be in like physics for a brief little moment or something like that and then when they land on the ground and stop moving, they can be snapped to a predetermined death pose depending on how you killed them (like 4/5 for physics, each depending on how close they are to the original physics pose (or just random, whatever performs best), 1 for each glory kill) that can be dismembered and mutilated but can't actually be moved? Would that be a good way to do it? Again, probably not gonna happen; but I can at least hope, damnit!

Agreed: I say only "a little disappointing" because I'm not surprised. Disappearing corpses, especially in a Doom game, bug the fuck out of me. They had last time to figure out how to modernize the Doom formula, now all I want them to do is refine it: not add more new shit like Heaven, lore, new weapons/demons, or whatever they're doing, I got more than enough of that last time. They should just focus on the core Doom elements they had last time and make them feel better (optimizing the game so corpses don't disappear to improve killing, better shooting sfx, faster movement speed, more varied and interesting level design, etc.) and not adding stupid shit *like* the runes and upgrade points and lore and stuff we got last time.

I was originally going to post a thread discussing allot of the major criticisms toward the Doom 4 reveal and what I personally agreed and disagreed with, but after reading even further into the Doom 4 discussion thread, I've formally concluded that would create a virtual cluster-fuck in the comments. Therefore, due to my distaste of flame wars, I've decided to narrow it down to one topic; the great immersion debate. I've seen allot of people upset over how slow the player moves and the level design (even though it was just part of being a demo, but whatever), yet clamor over how immersive the original Doom is. First of all, and I know I'm going to get some hate for this, I personally don't think the original Doom has held up very well in the immersion department. Yes, I know how revolutionary it was back in 1993, it was amazing for it's time; and I say "was" for a reason. I don't know if it's just me being born in 2001 and not finding out about it until much, much later, but I just don't see what everyone's talking about. How am I supposed to feel immersed when I'm running at 60 miles an hour with low frame animations, midi-death metal playing all the time, and a questionable use of colors and architecture? It doesn't feel like I'm in a demon ridden base, it feels like I'm playing an arcade game! And before you say, "oh, you just care about the graphics, don't you?", I'm going to turn around and say that graphics =/= immersion. Hell, I'm a huge fan of the original Half-Life and even that game's visuals haven't aged well either; however, what it does get right and has always gotten it right is immersion. One of the biggest reasons I'm not a big fan of classic Doom and don't really see why so many people call it such an atmospheric game is because of the lack of ambient noises. Sure, you have the noise monsters make, but that doesn't mean anything if it's drowned out by bombastic action music playing constantly. Music should be played only when action happens; all of it's emphasis gets thrown out the window when it's blasting all the time. I mean, what's the point of playing such awesome music if all you're doing is going around hallways and corridors looking for items? A game very similar to the likes of Doom, Painkiller, in my opinion was one of the first classic FPSs that got music right. Ambient noises and suspenseful sounds would loop when you were going around searching for items, meaning when the heavy metal finally did kick in, it felt all the more kick ass because it got you in the mood to kill shit. It wasn't just background music, and that's what made it so great. Another thing I didn't really like about Doom--and I can't believe I'm going to say this right in front of the entire Doom community--is the lack of scripted events or story telling. Okay, okay, I know what you're thinking, yes, I know that when misused, scripted events suck ass, and that I'm crazy for criticizing Doom for such a ridiculous reason; yes, I know that way too many scripted events can ruin a game, just look at Duke Nukem: Forever, that was a horrible game! But, if they're used properly and don't get in the way of the player where you're forced to listen to them, they can be wonderful. For example, let's look at Half-Life (again). In the beginning of the game, right after the experiment goes wrong, you can really tell and begin to understand how fucked the facility really is without the game needing to say a single word or even use a single cut scene. When you see an elevator full of scientists fall to their death, equipment malfunctioning, aliens killing everybody, and a gruesome government cover-up operation, it really makes you feel like you're in a facility that's going to complete hell. I know you could fire back at me and say "well, Doom doesn't really have much of a story to tell!"; and, quite frankly, you're right. In fact, if you think about it, Half-Life's story is just a glorified version of Doom's story with aliens instead of demons. But that doesn't mean it has to abandon the idea of immersion entirely! Instead, it can also focus on creating a world the player can truly believe he's in. I'm not saying the experience should be told through cut scenes and dialogue, I'm just saying we shouldn't go back to nothing at all. And that brings me to my conclusion; why go back to nothing when you could have so much more? Quite frankly, I don't think Doom 4 really needs to be an exact copy of the original Doom. I mean, there's nothing wrong with wanting an arcade action style gameplay, but that doesn't mean we should just stick to every tradition of the past. We've evolved from primitive set pieces and awkward stage transitions, so why should we go back to them? I mean, just look at what games like Wolfenstein: The New Order and Duke Nukem: Forever 2013 did. They stayed somewhat true to the original formula while also improving and adding upon it's core gameplay elements to create a better experience. In my opinion, if Doom 4 does the same thing those games managed to do while also making the levels a little bit less linear with faster movement, that's perfectly fine. We should keep moving forward, not be stuck in the past. Those are just my personal thoughts, anyway. I'd like to hear what you guys have to say in the comments, and if anyone else feels the same way I do. Thanks for reading this really long post I needed to get out of my system. - Nanomen (Edit 8/3/2015 -- After reading this, I'd recommend you read allot of the comments/replies I made on the first page before commenting; I go into allot more detail of what message I was trying to get across, some ideas I have, and another big reason I had to write this thread I forgot to add in the conclusion)

I tried to play some Smooth Doom Earlier and it gave me a warm, welcome back with this error message "R_OPENGL: OpenGL drive not accelerated!" I just recently upgraded to Windows 10, I'm using the same computer with the same hardware, and it started to do this whenever I try to run it. This never happened before on Windows 7; hell, I even tried running Half-Life with the OpenGL renderer just to make sure I had it, and it worked perfectly! What am I doing wrong? Does anyone know how to solve this?

Definitely; I would love to see those aspects of Doom 3 return in Doom 4. I hate to make myself sound like a broken record at this point -- as I already said this several times in my other replies -- but I wasn't thinking about total COD/Half-Life-style immersion before. Doom 3 is most certainly a good example; no NPCs, just you all alone by yourself. If you require some more detail as to what I have in mind, I'd suggest you read the conversation I had with gamul312. I've also been considering the possibility of closing this thread and re-writing it; I think I can make my thoughts a little more clear than I did previously.

Looking back on it, I think the reason I mentioned Wolfenstein is because I was thinking about it's level design and some gameplay elements at the time. When I said "making the levels a little less linear" in my conclusion, I wasn't referring to Doom 4--I was referring to TNO. I have no idea why I didn't think about that and clarify beforehand. Still, I probably could've used a better example of how to handle scripted events in non-linear level design than TNO, Shadow Warrior being one of them. Anyway, I never said Doom 4 needed a good story. Going back to what I said about Half-Life's story, it's basically the same thing--you shoot aliens in a research facility. Seem familiar? If such a simplistic premise can spawn such an awesome universe, I don't see why it couldn't work with Doom; I mean, it's mixing hell and sci-fi--how could that not make for some awesome lore? I think what I want more than anything is some more of that; I want to see how the writers can explain Doomguy's superhuman abilities, how the suit and all the other technology works, why the fuck people decided it would be a good idea to experiment on hell, how they even got access to hell in the first place, ect, ect. Personally, I find that kind of stuff interesting. Even though Doom 3 is most likely the worst when it comes to being a "Doom" game, I loved how it expanded upon the universe using detailed environments and would appreciate some parts of Doom 3 being mixed in with Doom 4. Also, "Doom 4 must be like Crysis 2"? Ehhhh---no; isn't Doom 4 all about being non-linear? If they did semi-linear, that would kill the whole point of trying to be a classic FPS game; sure, it can have some parts that are linear, but it would really piss allot of Doom fans off if id just pussied out on the whole idea of classic level design and stick to what's already been done before. Yes, the AI shouldn't be completely brainless; but, if you're expecting F.E.A.R level AI, no--just no. Even though I've literally beaten that game three times through and savored almost every moment of it, I'm not expecting to face the smartest of foes.

Yeah, I don't think dialogue would work either. I was talking about the other parts of Half-Life that didn't use any NPCs at all, only the environments to tell the "story". As much as I love Half-Life 2, I will admit replaying it wasn't as fun the second time; even though the writing is superbly written and masterfully voice-acted, sometimes I just wish NPCs would just shut the hell up and let me through. Let me give an example of what I meant; remember in the E3 demo where you see the Renevant walk through a hallway and rip that one dude's arms off? Or what about that hologram thing showing a Baron of Hell(?) tearing some guy in half? I want to see more of that. Though, it would be best only to use one or two scripted events like that each level/chapter near the beginning to introduce/foreshadow new enemies; it would be a great way to instill dread or fear into the player, and would add to the overall atmosphere tremendously. As for what you said about Doom 4 having an opening cutscene, sure. I loved Quake 2's intro, and I have no objections if they tried to replicate something similar. I just don't want them to be all over the entire game.

Well, that's just fantastic. I got Windows 10 as early as I did is because I do NOT have $119 to spare; I'm saving up for a new PC and wanted to get it burned on to disk before the free offer ended. I really didn't feel like spending that much on a freaking OS. I guess I could try ZDoom, though; it's not like Zandronum is a very viable option these days. Anyway, thanks for telling me what was wrong!

Yeah, I have a really, really awful computer; this thing is almost five years old and I'm about ready to launch it out the fucking window if it freezes one more time.

I looked around on the Intel Download Center, and it said that the video drivers should come with the Windows 10 update. My laptop uses a 2nd generation Intel HD Graphics 3000 card, and it was included on the list that came with them. I already double-checked by searching for any possible Windows updates via the settings menu, and it said my system is perfectly up-to-date.

That short, seven second preview track seriously reminded me of Quake 2's soundtrack--which is awesome; and if that's true, thank God, I love musical variety, especially with lots of different instruments. Though, I'll agree it would've been sick if Audry came back to work on Doom 4's soundtrack with the new guy; but, I guess we can't have everything good in life, sadly.

@quakke Wow, that's a long reply. First of all, I never said the level design was too linear; I only mentioned how other people were. Those who complained about the levels being too linear are just plain stupid; it's a demo, of course it is. Secondly, I know fast-movement isn't supposed to be immersive, I just thought 60 miles per hour is way too fast for me to take seriously. I think the movement speed they showed off in the demos (and that one brief shot in the trailer where Doomguy appears to be going super fast while strafing) was much better, not too slow, but not too fast. As for what you said on Doom being "Terminator: The Simulator", my response would be yes-and-no; yes, because you get to kill shit (which is awesome), and no, because Doom--at least back in 1993--wasn't just about killing things to most people. I've commonly seen allot of Doom fans, even Gabe Newell himself, asked about what they remember most fondly from Doom, and most of them said it was actually the scary atmosphere--for the time, at least. I mean, Doom was not even remotely close to allot of the games that were coming out in 93', even it's predecessor, Wolfenstein, had some differences. For one, the noises the monsters themselves made I can image were terrifying to anyone who was new to Doom. They made you fear what was up ahead and would scare the shit out of you if you were in a dark area. Like remember that one part in the toxin refinery where as soon as you pick up the blue key, the whole room goes dark and imps come out of nowhere? That's what I'm talking about. You also called me out for picking on a game that came out in 1993 for not having enough ambient sound effects, like the hum of a ceiling fan, footsteps, metallic creaking, ect, ect. While, yes, I understand how most people consider it unfair to criticize an issue that comes all the way down to the hardware itself, I don't take excuses. I don't care if the problem was because of the hardware itself, it doesn't matter, an issue is still an issue; that's just how I think when I'm critiquing a game. As to why I didn't complain about the graphics, visuals don't matter all too much in my eyes--unless it's something like Bubsy 3D or Action 52 where they're literally painful to look at. Painkiller, yes, I now realize isn't all to similar to Doom, but that doesn't change the fact that Painkiller was inspired by Doom and does have some similarities; I was just using it to make a point about the music. I understand Doom back then technically wasn't that much more than "here's some demons, here's a big, non-linear level; kill the demons and explore this level", but I would at least like to see something interesting going on other than killing demons the entire game. If you don't like Wolfenstein: The New Order, fine. That's your opinion, but I'll most certainly say they shouldn't use cinematics; I'm glad we can both agree Duke Nukem: Forever 2013 had a fantastic use of scripting for a classic FPS, that's the kind of thing Doom 4 should be aiming at. As for my previous conclusion, I think I realized one of the biggest reasons why I wanted to see immersion in the first place; I want other people to experience what old Doom fans experienced all those years ago. Back when I said "most Doom fans said they remembered the atmosphere/immersion," that's what I want to see, too. I don't want Doom 4 to just to be a clone of Doom 1, I want it to re-imagine what made the first Doom so great, to make it easier for new-comers to understand what it was like back then; it wasn't just a game, it was an experience. I'm not expecting to see the same level of innovation people saw with Doom 1, not even close; however, what I do want is new fans not to see it as just pure action, but rather as something so much more.

Well, if the story/story telling doesn't get in the way of gameplay, optional to listen to, subtly told, and expands upon the lore of Doom, why not have it? It could add more re-play value and depth to Doom 4 if done right. Plus, the only four RPGs I've ever really enjoyed from start-to-finish are Dragon Quest VIII & IX, Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, and Earthbound; but that's a whole different topic for another time.

I'm so glad someone else other than me doesn't think the new music is awful. Industrialized, metallic-sounding, electronic instruments with some heavy guitar thrown in works flawlessly for the combat sections; they absolutely nailed it, especially considering Doom's futuristic setting. Though, I don't think they should use electronic too much, if you use the same category of combat music all they way through it can get stale. Now, imagine this; what if in the later stages of Hell were you finally start to leave the UAC facility and tread deeper into Hell, they not only start to use more metal and less electronic, but also mix some Gothic choir and organ into it as well? That would be fucking *awesome*. As for the the more quite, ambient music they showed off, my God, now that's how you do atmospheric music right. It creates a sense of dread and excitement at the same time, always hoping for yet dreading another monster encounter, even more so if you're low on health and armor. It doesn't kill any immersion and it contributes even more punch to the combat segments. It what atmospheric music in almost every other action game should do; it builds suspense, and I'm so glad they made that improvement instead of just sticking to one theme for the entire level.

Yeah, I do suppose I forgot to mention the dark, spooky songs or the bass-heavy ones. I guess I didn't mention most of Doom's soundtrack other than the metal--what it's most famously known for--to stay on one topic and due to allot of the tracks getting repetitive and, admittedly, bland after awhile. I know music back in the day on MSDOS wasn't all that complex or long due to memory limitations, but that still doesn't mean I'm going to enjoy it anymore today. I think the reason I don't remember Bobby Prince's work more than someone like Audry Hodges' work is just because Audry took allot more bold moves with his instrument choices. I think the reason I prefer Doom 64's soundtrack is just how difficult it is to describe, like you couldn't even explain it to another human being without having them listen to it for themselves; but, that's just my taste in music.

Yes, three of them actually, and I got pretty far into Doom II before I became bored (though, I'm considering replaying through Doom 1 & 2 again on nightmare difficulty since I was having allot more fun). Also, I was saying Doom93' just because I didn't want to take any chances with clarity; this is the internet, after all.

That's exactly what I was thinking; instead of having back story or exposition explained through other characters in cut scenes or dialogue, explain it in really subtle, optional ways so it doesn't get in the way of killing things. I've always appreciated those sections in games that sort of just allow you to stop for a few moments to look around and try to figure out what the hell is going on, or even the really secret places that provide much further detail. I think stumbling upon something similar to the likes of Doug Ratman from Portal while searching for secret areas could be an awesome way to give players like me more of an incentive to look around for hidden items. Not only would telling the story in a more cryptic fashion appeal to those who enjoy finding very small shreds of information expanding the lore and piecing together the plot or even subplots, it would also appeal to those who don't care about the setting or any back story and just want to shoot demons; instead of being forced to listen to or read all of the new lore, they could just skim past it and go straight for key items or secrets. It's a compromise I think could indeed work extremely well if executed right. Oh, one more thing I didn't mention last time, I've listened to some of Audry Hodges' work before, and I will definitely say I prefer Doom 64's soundtrack over Doom93's; I still like Doom93's up-beat metal soundtrack, however, I just don't think it was used right.

I don't understand what people want from this game's colors anymore. Personally, I'm going to back off on this topic until the final game gets released; it's pretty stupid to judge an entire color pallet or art style just based on a couple of screen shots and some demo footage. If I were to judge it based on the screen shots and footage we've seen so far, I'm totally fine with how it looks.

You know, I've always been mad at fate for making me as young as I am. When I was playing Doom in DOSBox, I was thinking about how amazing it must of been back then to see something as revolutionary as Doom. I'm pretty sad to think I'll never see the same kind of innovation ever again in future games. But, I guess I can't change when I was born ):

Well, the thing is, I'm looking at it from a modern stand point, today's standards. I understand id had some limits with sound design due to MSDos's 8 sound channels; and yes, I know the atmosphere originally came from people experiencing something as different as Doom was. I would know that feeling, the first time I played some thing as simple as Lego Star Wars when I was really, really young, I was--believe it or not--terrified of breaking down the first door because there were droids making weird (scary) noises on the other side. Yes, my seven six year old self was scared of Lego Star Wars. I just wrote down what I experienced in my play through of Doom.

I was born January 23, 2001. Yes, I was born before the events of 9/11. But is this about me or Doom 4?