MrFlibble

Hello. There are two issues that I'd like to point out in relation to Freedoom compatibility. First, I've noticed that for some reason, neither PrBoom 2.5.0 nor PrBoom+ 2.5.1.3 (Win32 versions) seem to use lumps for extra menu items from Freedoom IWADs. Instead, the hardcoded lumps from the port executables are used: Boom and MBF do not have this issue and load menu text lumps from IWADs as intended: IIRC it is specifically mentioned in Boom and MBF code that lumps found in WADs should always have priority over their counterparts that are hardcoded in the executable. The second issue is apparently related to all Boom derivative ports. Namely, if a Freedoom IWAD is run with a PWAD that alters some text strings (messages or level names, for example) via a DEHACKED patch, PrBoom+ (as well as other Boom derivatives) will still use strings loaded from the BEX lump inside the Freedoom IWAD. The rest of the DEHACKED patch (e.g. altered monster animations/behaviour) will work normally. Can this please be fixed?

This is great, have you ever finished that one? Or maybe you'd contributed this tile in its present state, it's already pretty neat as it is.

Yes, please. However, I would welcome a version with several selectable characters, as in mods/TCs that use Hexen code. That's certainly beyond the scope of an IWAD project, but I don't think it's beyond the scope of Freedoom in general.

Well, I suppose that if the DEHACKED lump limits each string's length proportionally to their respective original counterparts, there's no reason even considering using it. It's a pity that there's this issue with Boom derivative ports, meaning that ports which are no longer updated will not get a fix for this. I suppose that the other way to address this issue would be to use dedicated executables for Freedoom that already contain the necessary strings. Which, again, relies on a solution that is external to the IWADs.

Was it really necessary to replace the red ones with a water texture recolour? The pattern on the water texture sort of suggests that the liquid is (semi-)transparent, while this one is not supposed to have translucency similar to water. Personally I think the old version was fine, except it needed to fix a few wrongly coloured pixels, much like what robotdog1 did with the waterfall textures. Old: New: BTW, in either case, the lowest row of pixels in RP1_1 and RP1_2 is apparently too bright and contrasts too much with the flats. I think the old nukage flats were fine as well.

The pre-release versions might be neatly archived and packed away somewhere, as was the case with the beta versions of Duke Nukem 3D and other Apogee/3D Realms games. The question is whether anyone of the copyright holders would be willing to share those versions with the public in any form. BTW, apparently there's also a cut mission, according to the FAQ I mentioned above: The map of that level is shown on one of the pre-release shots. I think it would've been neat if the demo featured a unique mission that was a bit more complex than the actual first mission of the full game.

So does that mean that there's no problem using a DEHACKED lump for Freedoom strings if BEX conflicts with custom strings in PWADs?

Right, I was wrong about the chainsaw. PWADs with custom weapons certainly do have gloves to be consistent with the original game for which they were intended. Anything different from a generally similar look, which was achieved with the older weapon graphics set, will be contrasting with any custom weapons that might be found in a PWAD.

The outlines are well pronounced, but I'm not sure I like the red colour better than orange. Also, does it really have to use that metallic texture? Personally I like the roundish blue font from the first concept better. Blue also goes well with orange IMO, as I said earlier.

I simply reiterated what was said here. I think that Doom is more or less consistent with gloves: Doomguy just takes them off when he uses the brass knuckles/chainsaw. Also I think every piece of concept art shows him with gloves. They're only missing from the player sprite IIRC.

Right, Unreal also has themes similar to what can be found in the current Freedoom art design. Maybe it would be helpful to start a separate thread for brainstorming story/lore concepts? They don't have to be borrowed from, or influenced by, any other game in particular, but there are some pretty interesting venues to explore. I like the idea of a huge AI mainframe as the boss. There could also be System Shock-y overtones as well. The zombie replacements have always felt like (failed) cyborg/genetic mutation experiments to me.

With gloves, PWAD compatibility increases (from an aesthetic perspective at least). Without them, Freedoom gets more of a separate identity, and it is also consistent with the concept art. I think this is one of the issues that can only get a satisfactory solution if the PWAD-compatible and "own identity" sub-projects are separated into different IWADs. If this route were taken, I'd vote for bare hands with bracers, as in the concept art.

Nice! Although I must say that the new skull cursor from v0.10 is also pretty neat, even if somewhat close to its original counterpart.

A while ago I contacted the admin of those, apparently the site is undergoing some maintenance update or something. Hopefully it will be up and running sometime later again. BTW, recently I found a scan of a page from a French gaming magazine which shows a pre-release screenshot with completely different mission titles compared to the final version. The titles go as follows: Also there exists a German demo version, which is generally identical to the regular English Internet demo v0.163D, but with everything translated into the German language. It was published on several German gaming magazine cover CDs. I don't know if the full game was ever distributed in Germany though, as MobyGames suggests it was put on the infamous BPjS list. The German demo can be downloaded here.

I think blue would work very well with the orange infinity symbol (as in the earlier version posted above). Also the current in-game version has varying colours for the outlines of the individual letters: some black and some grey, with the latter being almost invisible against some textures, thus making an impression of an incomplete outline.

Only the first game or the whole trilogy? Anyway, what I mean was more concepts than visuals. Spaceship interior levels. Alien ruins and high-tech bases. A detailed backstory behind the various alien monsters. All of this seems worthy of exploration.

I completely agree with you on this. However, levels are also resources, and it's hard to create something good when there are almost no graphics. Recently Cire expressed the intent to create a complete "shareware" episode for Zauberer. That would advance the project's development, and is a goal that can be realistically accomplished in near future. However, Zauberer in its current state is critically short of all sorts of assets, and Cire considered using some external resources, but the licensing of most of them is very unclear, making them unsuitable for the project. Cire is very concerned with the lack of resources, as it may seriously slow down the project: In this situation, I merely suggested that some very infrequently used Freedoom textures could be put to use as placeholders, to be eventually replaced with original art. It is my honest opinion that there is nothing bad in such approach. This will help begin the level design in earnest, which is as much important as is the art of the game. It is also important to remember that with a volunteer project, people involved often have different, non-overlapping schedules. Presently, Cire and his friend have the time to work on levels and the design document for Zauberer, however it might very well be the case that no texture artists are available at the same time. There is no reason to postpone work such as level design for the lack of textures if placeholders can be used. Also the texture artist(s) will have a clearer idea on what to do when there are levels to be textured, i.e. a definite context in which the textures are to be used. Back to the topic of textures for Freedoom, I realised that there is a theme entirely absent from the stock texture set: alien tech for base/spaceship interiors. This is something very scantily addressed in the game, as the original mostly has either Earth tech or "hellish" tech, which doesn't really rhyme well with the current design of alien monsters. It's possible to create some ancient alien ruins with castle textures, but hardly anything for distinctly alien technology. It would be nice to have not only wall and door textures, but also some alien computer terminals, and maybe some holograms and things like that for decor too. Also, since there are both tech-inclined and organic, Zerg-ish aliens, perhaps some organic textures could be useful too.

I think there's no problem if Blasphemer and Zauberer have overlapping content. Nor do I really think that borrowing from Freedoom at this point is a bad thing to do either. I think I understand raymoohawk's point about each game having its own separate development environment, lest they become too similar. However, I believe that this ideal should not get into the way of actual development. If using placeholders from Freedoom, including monsters and whatnot, speeds you up, I think it's perfectly acceptable. Getting a functional prototype is more important than all-original graphics and other assets. BTW, Raven Software had their own previous games with graphics and other art to use as placeholders (and some actually served as the basis for the assets in Heretic and Hexen), but I think it would not be improbable to suppose that, if these two games were developed by id Software instead, maybe they'd use Doom graphics as placeholders or bases for new assets as well.

Some of the older versions are also scattered over some Linux distros' FTP repositories.

IIRC both versions of the rocket launcher were made by fredrik. I should confess that I actually like the brown one BTW. The angled SSG was created by Scuba Steve. It was initially intended for another project and recycled for Freedoom. Some felt that it did not fit the style of other weapons for this reason, and it got removed with other angled weapons. All weapons were replaced with centred ones at some point in development. I think some thread here mentions how fredrik (or someone else) was working on a centred version of Scuba Steve's SSG, but I think it was never completed. Not sure though. It doesn't seem to be in the files anyway. There's some discussion here but I believe it's mostly about fredrik's version that got replaced with Eriance's recently/

I've taken the liberty to start a separate thread in order to not hijack raymoohawk's thread any further. I wouldn't say that quality is the main reason. It's just that all weapons by Eriance are drawn in the same style. Scuba Steve's pistol is also hand-drawn, but in a different style. Sodaholic's weapons are digitised photographs etc. From a theoretical standpoint, it would be logical to use all weapons by Eriance so that the art style would be consistent. However, there's another point: Eriance's weapons are essentially the original Doom weapons redrawn in very high quality. It is my understanding that Freedoom design has always been aiming to be "same but different", that is, to use something original but with the same function as in Doom. The current SKAG for example may not have the best artistic quality, but it's something original and clearly different from the BFG. The super shotgun, the graphics of which could certainly be improved, is some high-tech thingy, as opposed to the original double-barrelled shotgun. I would assume that this is the established direction in which Freedoom is going. Don't get me wrong, I like Eriance's weapons, they have great design and high quality. Maybe, if there's already permission to use them, have a separate "add-on" PWAD with these weapons to be used with the main game IWAD?

There are some interesting alien designs, like Trooper or Enforcer. These are of course nothing exceedingly original, but there are neat details like the cloak or the transparent helmet. Also I think it would be nice to have levels in Freedoom taking place inside a spaceship or a space station. There's that starry sky in Phase 1 Chapter 4, which could be used to have viewports in a spaceship/space station. (On a side note, it would be cool to have indestructible viewports protected by force fields, Duke Nukem 3D style, but I think it's not possible with the default engine settings.)

Yes, yes, I am curious, thanks :) Did you just resize the image with the nearest neighbour sampling?

BTW, may I ask what tools you have used to process the image, aspect-correct it and convert into the Doom palette?

No, I didn't. IIRC, in the old discussion that I alluded to earlier, it was decided that assets should be consistent across both IWADs for the sake of PWAD compatibility (at least, this is how I remember it). That is why I said that adding extra textures, as suggested by raymoohawk and Sodaholic, remains consistent with this goal, whereas changing monsters or weapons inevitably affects PWADs played with the respective Phases. However, I do think that the question of whether (some of the) resources should be different between the two Phases could be discussed - but in a separate thread. That would help better organize the development process. On the question of textures, this collection was brought up in the Dark Forces thread recently. Some are obviously converted from other FPS games, but I'm not sure of others like Too Much Brown, psyren textures, Ogro, NMN Corporation and some others. Perhaps at least some are made from scratch and thus theoretically usable?