Cyberia-Mix

Hello, I saw your post in Jimmy & Josh's thread (incidentally I think I just figured out the filename). The humble tone of your presentation in obvious contrast with the dazzling craftsmanship on display won me over, lol. Naturally the map was excellent, though I do question some design choices, and bumped into a couple minor bugs after a while. I don't know much about modern dooming practices, so my views might be largely irrelevant. To make things worse, I don't like hard maps, and I stick to UV regardless (pain over lies, something like that). Had this been Doom2 I would have stayed away, but since it was Doom1, I thought it's not like anything too bad could happen. Eventually I completed the map on skills 4-2-3-4. Yay for non-linearity / replay value. Played mostly on ZDoom, with mouselook. I tried keyboard for a bit but urgh. On ZDoom the monster count is actually 700/714/718 somehow. Though I tried other ports with the correct count and didn't notice a difference. (Apologies for the wall of text. I blame the map's scale & quality. :D) Playthrough summary After the initial batch of deaths, I felt like the safest route was to ignore the 1st RL, get the Chaingun, get the 2nd RL, immediately rush the Berserk then the switch next to the blue door, and start cleaning from there (or any nearby safe spot). Like this, in short. The southwest battle leaves plenty of ammo to now deal with the 2 Barons at start, get the 1st RL, and proceed to the barrels room. At this point, this was my first time clearing up to path to the green armor fight, and dying far enough to start saving (just in quiet times). I thought you had to use the PG for this fight. I'm not sure I even noticed the rocket boxes all around. Next run, up to barrels room, PG time it is. But boy is that fight scary (dem cacowalls man). If only I could pick up that invuln sphere, or some extra health or armor. At least I was saving now. Got PG & backpack, ignored the yellow door (I do keydoors last), and did both the green & blue armor fights with PG. Saving sure speeds things up. Suddenly puzzle time. Amazing to find an entirely peaceful challenge in such a brutal place. I felt like I was having my best time since I started lol. Took me a few minutes to notice the texture connection, and a few more to realize you weren't supposed to raise all 3 platforms to cross gaps. I grabbed the BFG and directly ran away upstairs. The Spider battle was far too clever for me and my BFG. I figured the lowering switch allowed you to step onto the Spider's platform, so after a few tries I blasted it and crowdsurfed my way out (ZDoom yaaay~) before cleaning up the place. It certainly didn't feel right, but I thought maybe it was a bonus solution, and I would find the proper one on another time. Seeing the yellow door from the other side, I realized the entire eastern area was optional. I freaking loved that. I jumped down the computer deco that borders the nukage pool, from where I saw the 2 earlier Cyber bosses that ran out of zombies, and proceeded to accidentally double kill them from a single random teleporter test. As if fate had brought me here for that moment. ;D I wonder how much of that was actually planned to happen, but at any rate it was delicious. Got blue key, all kills, and reached the end. Time to hunt for secrets. I got the Computer Map, but it didn't seem to be meant to help lol. I got the rest with Doom Builder. Next I quickly replayed the map on skills 2 & 3 with different routes. I got scared at first seeing the monster count was about the same, but the pickups do make a lot of difference. Then I started fooling around on skill 4 again, now much easier with the secrets and some knowledge. I was hoping to make a full run without saving, but the Spider fight remains way too unreliable for that. I'll be interested in seeing a reliable solution. I think I eventually figured everything out (the videos helped), yet I feel like something is still missing. I loved it anyway. Combat puzzles of this complexity is something new to me. Bugs Minor stuff you might know about. — During the blue armor fight, you can end up in the nukage pool with all teleporters locked up. It happens when you walk over the barrier of lights before starting the fight. You're unlikely to want to do that but it can happen if you're hunting down the last cacos far away or below the floor. It also happens if you open the map's exit section and fall from there prior to opening any teleporter. Not sure what's the best way to fix this, but considering the punishing nature of the map I don't think it matters much. In fact, I wouldn't find it weird if the pool simply had no way out. Though it's always better if it does. — Also at the start of the blue armor fight, with some luck/skill you can run around the barrier of lights to hide. Doesn't seem to be a very beneficial move though. If you're playing the area counterclockwise, you might end up falling through the floor where the pinkies rise from. — If the lift where the blue key is made accessible is blocked from going back up when standing to the side, the middle sector goes back alone. I suppose this sector is needed for texture alignment of the switch, but well there are other solutions anyway. — If you try to block and exit the blue key lift when it goes back up, the lift can't be called again from the lower side. Somehow on first try this also made me grab the light goggles through the wall, though I haven't been able to do it again. — If you're fast enough, you can grab the Yellow Key and make it back to the lift. Likewise, you can run over the falling platform on the way back. Those are rather funny but yeah. — A caco from the green armor fight once managed to drift all the way back to unlock the cyberdemons. I was ending the blue armor fight when I got the news from my death message. :'D Remarks — The map is absolutely beautiful. The lighting is perfect, the level of detail on the computer panels is amazing. I thought the various wood textures were out of place, however. Like leftovers from a previous texturing attempt. — Congrats also for the huge effort on the architecture. I love the curviness and sweet touches like rounded edges, along with the gratuitous decorations like the ceiling structures and the out of reach little rooms. — The layout is very impressive, with geometry sprawling in funky directions, excellent freedom, and basically no unused space (much respect to that in particular). On the freedom part though, I didn't get why some paths were unavailable or one way only, as it doesn't look like removing obstacles / allowing the moves would break anything (could be wrong), only adding more possibilities. Specifically, I mean: > the red floor bars at the 2nd RL (to go up), > the lift near the Computer Map (to go down), > the windows around the YK room (to enter it), > the RK requiring the YK (that one saddens me the most, I don't think the RK switch positionning was worth disallowing getting keys in either order). — It took me forever to try opening up the first RL with the barons alive, as I only expected to be cornered and die. In retrospect there's enough space to avoid that (duh), but either way it never occured to me that the barons might teleport out, thus clearing the path to pick up the RL. It's an important piece of information as the RL enables immediate access to the barrels room, greatly changing the perception of available routes in the map. (One I like is rushing the BFG to cheese the entire western section, eventually completing the map wtihout using the PG at all.) A walk line instead of the switch would ensure the player knows early on. (Also I don't get why the textures are aligned to have the switch touch the floor.) — I love the cacos' between-rooms ceiling vents. First time I see that. — I was initially a bit confused that the BFG puzzle didn't require you to raise all 3 platforms to cross gaps, but later on I found it nice that it allows different solutions. — Didn't mind the anticlimatic end, that's cool in a way. In fact I liked that the blue key / end area remained mostly empty the whole time, like it was not involved in the challenge. Also I loved the end sign with your name built from the regular texture. Clever! — The music is excellent, of course. I got Megaman X vibes from it. I think it fits well with the fast action and the environment, esp. in the larger areas, though from the music alone I picture something more shiny and aerial. If you were to make another map but from the music this time, I'd love to see what you'd come up with. Finally, the secrets. I didn't try searching very hard, thinking it was hopeless in a map this large and detailed. I was also assuming they would be fairly obvious, in order to help players struggling with fights. And so, I just kept advancing, expecting secrets or hints to eventually show up like the backpack did, but nope, 2/6. When I looked up the rest in Doom Builder, my first reaction was that it seemed very unlikely that a player could pay attention to them until they're done clearing around, at which point they're not nearly as needed anymore. (Though it still made sense if they were intended for subsequent playthroughs, especially if trying higher skill levels.) I started drafting a reply about this, but it gradually dawned on me that the problem might just be me making this look harder than it was and having wrong expectations. I remembered reading Demon of the Well had found all secrets in his run, so I watched how it went... and my jaw dropped. It's both hilarious and sickening how easily DotW inadvertently (?) defuses some of the map's challenges (special mention for the crazy combo of immediate opening of the southwest teleporter & convenient retreat into the previously early opened RK secret, straight Inspector Gadget material :'D), how easily he finds the secrets (sometimes going straight for them / spotting them right away across the room), and generally how he's never endangered (save for the close call PG fight near start). Like, man, how could this be a first attempt. If anything it looks like a guide. :'D At times it really looked like he had foreknowledge (like the spider fight), then again it may just be the true power of a Doom veteran... Anyway this surely changed my view on how people view secrets' difficulty and how to hunt them better. Real git gud moment there. I still find it awkward to shoot a switch from far away when you can just touch it, but if it's purposely silly then alright. :þ Still wondering also if the Computer Map is of any use secrets-wise lol. Well, that was quite the journey. Saw amazing sceneries, had tons of fun, and learned lots. Thank you very much! (Again sorry for the stupid wall of text. My draft & notes were actually thrice as big. That review was secretly the hardest battle of this map. :'D)

The latest version is pretty much complete save for minor updates in a few maps. I can reup it if needed. All maps work fine (for me at least), though it would be nice to have more reviewers for the newer maps.

There's one thing I noticed just now too in Map 32: pic Also allows to walk through the gap. @FractalXX: Xabika started a post higher on this page for errors he spotted. You might want to fix what he found in your map. ;)

I played it. It's good but it's harder than maps 21-24. ._. I also thought it looked really similar to Exit Wound. Small corridors, then bigger rooms, Spider boss, and Cyber boss at end. How do you get the invulnerability on the scrolling floor? They were in the MAPINFO before? I can't find them in older versions. O_o They can be added as global settings at the beginning of the MAPINFO anyway. @FractalXX: there's also some vertex fixing to do on 64 Ways to Die. See my last post on p.21. Doesn't look like Saint_Guy is around. @mArt1And00m3r11339: did you use the latest version of the project? The missing sky was fixed in v31 (it's working for me).

Also please try to make it easier than your other maps to fit with the difficulty progression (Maps 17-18 easy, 19-23 medium, 24+ hard).

Yes. They were fine until this update (the screenshots are fine). You're right I totally forgot about the windows in Retrofit lol, somehow it didn't surprise me as much there.

Thanks for all the replies and updates. :) The new titlepic is great. Too bad it has to be 320x200 lol. The intermission version is great too, the b&w/red contrast is neat. What port did you use for the screenshots? Had a hard time recognizing my map with the colored lighting lol. The MAPINFO looks all good now except for sky textures in Map 08 and 09. Should be the other way round. Nice! Is it normal that I'm able to shoot through the transparent windows?

NP :) While I'm at it: - Lost Tower https://i.gyazo.com/55795c88381e9b886f5ae2f67df79f50.png - Careless Infection https://i.gyazo.com/e9ed56d942a4ca0d83d5e58d172b151f.png - 64 Ways to Die https://i.gyazo.com/0812d1f486f459aab7dcf27420a6c403.png - https://i.gyazo.com/10e666c00637ade0c960db0e6e193825.png (symmetry) Once again you're good at choosing songs. :D Some remarks for possible improvements: I'm not sure about the new title screen. It's rather dull and the actual maps aren't that blocky. I liked that the old title screen was straight to the point by showing the grid. Actually the best thing might just be to write "64" or "Gridlock" or both in the editor in the same style as you did with the logo. (Possibly with extra lines and map things around for decoration.) I also think it's fine to use the same pic for both the title and intermission screens. I see no reason to have two, plus the current intermission pic is unrelated to the project. I like the new HUD, though I think the R and S need to be shaped more. They don't look as such right now. You might want to improve horizontal centering on the CWILV gfx. Some look off in game, mostly THENERDTURTLE on 18 and XABIKA2202 on 31 (not sure about others). I also noted various inconsistencies in the MAPINFO lump that may be visible on the intermission screens depending which port you play with: (I don't know much about this so I may be wrong.) - PrBoom doesn't use the "cluster" data so it shows story screens after map 06, 12 etc. like normal. GZDoom and ZDoom use this data, and the current result is that there's a single story screen in the whole game after map 13. Since there's no story in the project I would recommend having a "cluster = 1" line for all maps. (I have no idea if it's possible to disable story screens in PrBoom.) - Because of the same "cluster" inconsistency, in ZDoom 2.8.1 (PrBoom and GZDoom are unaffected) the second intermission screen that shows the next map's name and author only appears if this line is present. One more reason to have that "cluster = 1" line for all maps. (I usually play with ZDoom, else I wouldn't have noticed.) - Some maps have a par time, most don't. I don't know if it was set by the mapper or if it's the result of some bad copy/pasting. - Some maps have a "sucktime". It doesn't hurt but since it's highly unlikely that they last more than 1 hour those lines are pointless. - Other unnecessary lines: MAP 24 levelnum = 1 MAP 24 secretnext = "MAP31" MAP 32 levelnum = 1 MAP 32 titlepatch = "DINOSAUR FOOT" Also for some reason i see the DEHACKED lump twice in XWE. One of them with outdated level names. Finally, a couple questions about the maps themselves: Pinball and Dinosaur Foot used to have custom songs that were cut off for copyright reasons. Don't sudo459 and Martian Doomer want to try picking other custom songs rather than using default ones? Also what about copyright for resampled songs? Pillar64 and Survive!'s songs are originally from Unreal Tournament, and Nazi-Festung's song from Chrono Trigger, although they all sound noticeably different. I asked this previously but I'm not sure if TheNerdTurtle and Soldier993 chose the sky texture in their maps since they don't have transfer lines and were moved around in the map order.

https://i.gyazo.com/18f387af344b3407de5df8078398dd06.png

Ah that's nice. Now as far as I can tell there are only 3 maps left with not so gridlocked vertices: The Lost Tower, Through and Around, and 64 Ways to Die (maybe more). Would be nice to have all of them in order for the project to live up to its name. :p Some tool to check vertices coordinates would be handy but I have no idea if it exists or can be made.

Neat idea to make that continuity then. :D Players are more likely to step on the pressure plates if you put some item on them that they can always pick up, like backpacks. Light effects also help. It does seem a bit better but either way I don't think there's much you can do with the 64u rule in such a small space to make it clear that players don't need to come to the middle from both sides. A switch would be best for that I guess, activated through grates or by shooting, but you would need a larger room first. Not a big issue anyway. Yeah I agree with your thinking. It's just the final part that I find unreasonable, that players have no hint to find what they unlocked, and nothing catches attention to that place. There's no particular reason to think it lies in the BFG room that you may or may not have visited previously, or even to expect that you're looking for a hidden room and not something that opened recently. You could revisit the whole map and miss it. Thankfully the map isn't that big and the switch not that badly hidden. Not finding the BFG before is actually helpful lol. But even then, my stance is secrets need to be easy simply because players are accustomed to badly designed secrets in custom maps and expect BS by default, so they have no patience. It takes a damn good map to gain their trust and make them willing to be in your care. And I do think easy secrets help achieving that anyway. Still, it's just my own view on the matter.

Ah it's nice to finally be able to end Phantasm lol. Couple things I found weird in the new area: - the grates from Heretic look out of place IMO - regular Doom2 grates would be just fine, - the platform with the yellow keycard starts much higher than the sky's height, which is all the more noticeable with how long it takes for it to lower, - the button to activate the platform was also a bit hard to find (good thing the area isn't too big). Some blinking light there too might help, I dunno. Come to think of it, giving the key so close to the switch you use it on makes you wonder if the yellow switch or yellow key were necessary at all. :p Other things I noticed in the WAD: - Overgrowth's version is wrong. Link is on p.10. Also the sky texture never displayed correctly for me in that map with ZDoom. - map 15 is missing a mapinfo secretnext = MAP31 - map 32 leads to map 02 instead of map 16 - map 11's mapinfo should be sky1 = "sky1" (currently sky2) Also I'm not sure what should be the correct sky color for Crimson Castle. In the original wad it's cloudy/white, in the project wad it's night/blue, but given the map's name shouldn't it be hellish/red? If you're willing to modify the map order a last time, 64 ways to die (27) is one of the easier hellish maps. It would fit better if it was moved up, I guess either just before or just after Blood Lake Penitentiary (I can't really tell which of the 2 is harder). BladeRunner is actually fine at its current slot. It's slightly harder than Exit Wound and easier than Tower of Hope. Good job if it was done on purpose lol. Additionally you might want to swap these too (I have no preference, just offering perspectives): - Pillar64 (02) and Stiff (04) PROS: Stiff is much smaller and arguably easier CONS: Pillar64 is a higher quality map, having it earlier might be more motivating for players. Stiff's song being Doom's E1M4, it's a cool nod to have it at 04. - Trials of Iniquity (22) and Blood Cathedral (23) PROS: ToI is much larger The following maps all happen to be long and hard, which would sort of split the hell levels in 2 sub parts—regular levels for warm up, followed by massive mazes of spam and frustration, with ToI between the turning point/gateway. CONS: Though much shorter, Blood Cathedral's huge difficulty spike at the end makes it arguably harder than ToI. Latest maps reviews: - 64 ways to die - Only bad point IMO was the end part could have done without the cyberdemons. The fight was tedious and the area a little cramped to dodge, though I guess being trapped in corridors was the point. The spiderdemon didn't have much use either. Rest was great. I really liked how consistent it was all around—medium size and difficulty, variety in the areas in looks and gameplay while each retaining the same size, diffculty and detail level (though the final part looked a bit poorer). I also liked how the hell theme was used in a clean and stylish kind of way rather than chaotic/horror. I noticed a couple vertex mistakes: - https://i.gyazo.com/10e666c00637ade0c960db0e6e193825.png not symmetrical with the others - https://i.gyazo.com/0812d1f486f459aab7dcf27420a6c403.png not on the grid :( - Bladerunner - Got a mixed opinion on that one, because it's so long and so different as you progress. Simply speaking the gameplay is divided in 2 parts: - The beginning is following a single direction, mostly 64px corridors with hard monsters and barely any items. Any time you find ammo you use all in the next fight and have to berserk a lot. Like Exit Wound lots of areas felt downright cruel, overwhelming you with monsters and forcing you to retreat to try taking them 1 by 1. No freedom + no ammo. It was exhausting to the point that for my 2nd playthrough I immediately went IDDQD. - And then, at around 1/3rd of the map, you get to the large room with the 3 keys (which aren't used, weird) and the gameplay changes drastically, for the better. Things start to open up (literally!), you can start choosing where to go, most fights get easier, and you start collecting ammo. The secrets are also interesting to hunt. Personally I would have started the map there and removed everything before. :/ I'm not asking for this though lol. And there's an entire optional last 3rd of the map, which is like a separate map (notably with its different theme) and was my favorite part. Lots of freedom! I'm not sure why it was there but it was really cool. Finally, because you have a lot of decoration with faces, I found it difficult to know what was a switch and what wasn't. Like here it really looks like decoration, and when you walk around the area it's not obvious that it's the objective. Same here. It's not so bad since it's a secret but the map has multiple red blocks with faces like this and only this one reacts, so finding this one is hard. - Monochrome Mood - I like the greyness (but I'm a sucker for tech anyway), and the angular architecture (same thing). :) The concept is simple but I guess it's fitting for a secret/bonus map. I also find it funny that the green areas are all linked to the secret exit and that level happens to be all green. Was it on purpose? :D The difficulty was okay, though the majority of monsters kill each other before you even see them, making the placement a bit weird. I see no point in closing the 3 gates since there's no way you can survive inside the rooms before clearing them. I liked the blocked archvile that greets you at the entrance of the blue area. Had several reloads there before I could escape fast enough. The yellow area had the most interesting fight, forcing you to move around to avoid getting cornered. However I had trouble finding what to do to exit it. At first I IDCLIP'd out thinking I had to play blue and red first for yellow's exit to be open, but on the second try I saw I didn't complete the sequence of walking on the 3 squares. The last one is obvious but the first 2 not so much if you don't notice the first opens the second. The secrets are fun but understanding what they do is confusing. First I don't think you need to hide the switch room from the automap. Showing the switch but placing it out of reach at first might help the players to understand this is what they're after. There's a misaligned vertex here. Only saw it because of the visual glitch it causes in game.

Great news! Interestingly, putting it in the open has made this secret area easier to notice now. Unless it's intentional, you might be interested in fixing the texture floor here also (just need to flip the trigger line). Sorry for talking so much about this map, it's my favorite from the project. Really had a lot of fun trying in every way. It looks good, it gives a lot of freedom, it's hard yet cleverly balanced, and the song gets stuck in my head. :P

Hello. :) I previously suggested an area in Pinchy's Sheev Wheev for that: Dunno if he's still up for it though.