TechnoDoomed1

Had this happen to someone in my family not too long ago! Can't be too paranoid, it would seem.

Don't feel like a freak for liking a game! Many others enjoyed Doom3 as well, myself included. Although it's not my favourite Doom game, it still holds a place in my heart and in my game collection. The tension, the stark contrast between light and dark, the awesome and foreboding hell level, the ancient catacombs setting... Love it! :D I just hate Lost Souls, so annoying. Cool intro to them, though.

Vermiphobia, also known as fear of parasitic worms (or just worms in general)

By incorporating messages warning people, either in-engine, or as anotak did in his mod's permissive version. Informing is the way to go, whilst forbidding isn't. EDIT: By incorporating messages I don't mean in a .txt, since most people don't read those. I refer to messages that happen at map start (which I feel would be most non-intrusive), or during gameplay if they jump, letting them know the map wasn't designed for it. Something like "This map isn't designed with jumping/crouching capabilities in mind. Doing so may lead you to an inescapable situation. Proceed at your own risk". That's all that's needed. No stopping people, just saying: hey, if you do this, it might be bad. If you still do so, it's your fault.

This is really the best approach.

Comparing being able to jump in a mod/map to literally stealing, destruction of property or murder. Totally on point, of course. And you talk about strawmanning? Shame on you. No, I don't, because it's incredibly easy to just circumvent. Whiteknighting what is going to just eventually happen by itself is a very easy position to hold. If it even is whiteknighting at all to just want something you'd appreciate others to have too as an option (in this case: jumping/cheating/freelook, anything really). I guess jump forbidding mappers are whiteknighting their approach too? I don't need it. Others will. It's good it exists, but if people still couldn't find its way to it, or countermeasures would develop against such a fix/countermeasure/hack (call it as you please, really), then another fix/countermeasure/hack would pop out. Maybe even modded versions of those mods would pop out without their creator's consent, even if I don't agree with that methodology. Mappers that want this are on a loser's track anyhow, because their wishes are not going to be respected.

Games are one thing, and mods/mapsets are another. And even then, things like Cheat Engine exist. Or mods if you find one that does what you want. That's why moddable games have such a long lifespan. People like to change and customize things, and play how they want to. So yeah, I don't like it when people try to force things on me, or onto others. Nobody likes being controlled. This isn't a usual restriction anyhow. This is going outside of normal means to force something onto people that aren't as fortunate to have the same modding knowledge, which most don't because they have a busy life and modding usually requires quite a time investment. For the record, I don't find sandbox games entertaining. A cohesive vision of gameplay, and typical gameplay restrictions are fine by me. There are absolute masterpieces in this community that I personally find perfect as they are. Both mods and mapsets.

@Fonze My beef is that while I know what to do, others might not, and yet people are seriously considering being able to dictate how those other people play when they already have to go through menus to get their preferred way of playing back. When people consider forcing others their way, then yes, I do have a problem with that. If it wasn't for phantombeta releasing the countermeasure, I would've done something similar, just with a different approach. But I'm glad he did, as it shows I'm not alone in my sentiment anyways. Just with the version of the mod that comes with a warning. The other version just flat out stops you, no warning except "Jumping is disabled" or "Crouching is disabled" in the log. And it has already been implemented at least once. I know the difference between ports, and it changes nothing regarding my posts. In fact, as someone already pointed out, this only currently stops GZDoom users. Zandronum users got scotch free, at least until they get ZScript support in a stable release. As for the community... I've been around for 10 years watching events unfold without getting involved. And there's been already many times when there has been a dichotomy regarding (G)ZDoom vs other ports, or modern features vs vanilla/boom features. This just seems more of the same, with an added twist of wanting complete control over one's creations, even if it means foregoing of players' control. I also know that several people here seem to hold a grudge with Graf Zhal because he is usually rude and doesn't care about vanilla or Boom accuracy, which most people here seem to have a hardon for. Even when that's what has allowed the port to grow and evolve, becoming the most used source port. Also, I know that anotak and him have had a bad relationship in the past for Graf's mean and undeserved comments about anotak's work that won him a Cacoward. I'm all for that. But there's a difference between warning, and flat out controlling the player's actions. I approve of the permissive form of the mod that warns people, and lets them have control back. We can argue about the best implementation of that idea, but the idea is sound nonetheless. With the other version, however, I completely disagree. I find it untasteful and controlling, and I'll fight it so that non-knowledgeable users can play as they please with just a fair warning. Fonze is right, we shouldn't take our knowledge for granted. That's why I'm so against this and want to help others not have to put through this bullshit, even if it means going directly against the creator's wishes. I'm privileged for my modding knowledge, but others won't be so much, and they deserve to have fun however they like too.

I think it all boils down to who should have the last say in how mods/maps are played: the modder/mapper in question, by having the ability to entirely shutdown whatever they might not like; or the player, by having the ability to load any other mods along with it, use cheats, or in general doing whatever the heck they want during gameplay. It's pretty obvious there's a divide in here. I mean, I totally understand that mappers want others to play their experience as how they originally intended. It's only natural. But to get angry because others aren't, and trying to implement more stringent measures to keep more control over your own creation... is just being an asshole at best. Oh, having fun in a way I don't like? Nope, fun police here. No cheats allowed. No jumping. No mouselook. How dare you do what you want in a way that really impacts no one negatively? It's my creation, I have the ultimate say! You are absolutely no one to dictate how others get to enjoy ANYTHING, specially if it doesn't directly impact you whatsoever. You have no business policing others' enjoyment, no matter how much you disagree with how they enjoy things. The amount of entitlement in this thread, ranging from "fuck you, I can map to force you to do as I please" or "lol, you guys are bad, git gud" to "people should first play original Doom with all its limitations and quirks just as it was designed" is just very showing. Maybe none of those players want to do that, and you don't get to have the ability to force them. Too limiting? They might use another port/mapset, or get their way all the same with that port/mapset. Who do you think you are to force others to do as you want to start with? And who are you even kidding? If they really want, a sizeable portion will get rid of your block, by either doing it themselves or asking for help to do so. Please, stop pretending you have control over your own creations: that's just a delusion. Any random can (and in most cases already has without you even knowing) do things you didn't originally intent with your content, and as long as it's as harmless as cheating or jumping, and not trying to claim ownership of your mods or upload a modded version without your consent, all you do is come across as control freaks that try to impose things on other people. I don't care who you are. It doesn't matter if you're the best mapper, the best speedrunner, or the best player. That doesn't give you any leverage to dictate how I, or anyone else for that matter, get to enjoy any media. Let's not forget that someone already used the version of the mod that thoroughly forbids players to use an aspect of gameplay. This is not hypothetical case scenarios. People are really trying to police others and deny them options, even when more appropiate options were suggested or directly available!

I am. In fact, what I've said before was because I always mod the mods of others for my own personal fun. Of course, I'm not publishing them, or claiming ownership of anything, or making any profit out of it. I respect the rights and wishes of their creators in this regard, and strictly speaking, it's just general ettiquete. I also respect it when a map has jump disabled by not force-enabling the first time around, but once I know which shortcuts I can or can't take to avoid sequence breaking, I'll freely jump. I haven't implied or said such a thing in any of my posts here. You act as if I disagree with you in this regard, while it's not true. I couldn't agree more - mappers are sometimes demanded things, when it's no one's place to demand anything out of free content. No one is entitled to have mappers cater to them. But conversely, I do hold the believe that mappers aren't entitled to aggressively control their players' actions. Directing, and controling through standard means is fine. Completely overriding their players' ability to do something is not fine by me. YMMV, but at any rate it's impossible to completely control players. I completely have a clue, yet I think you mistake me for a newbie or rookie, which I'm not. Don't mistake my post count for veterancy, I'm just a pretty old lurker. I'm not telling you how to map, or that you need to cater to people, or that you depend on GZDoom. I know full well how compatibility works - and if you map for vanilla, it can be played in GZDoom. And unless you go out of your way to avoid people to jump, it's on by default. I am not telling you what you can or can't do in your maps, or pretend that you need GZDoom, or that you need to cater or listen to assholes to demand bug-fixing that isn't a bug but them being idiots because they jumped when they shouldn't (and if the issue here is that there's no warning, this mod could've just been a universal warning for GZDoom users trying to jump, instead of a universal stopper of such a feature, triggering divisive opinions and knowing full well it goes against the intent of the source port maintainer). I won't tell you these things. But I'll tell you that you have no business at all aggressively controlling how I play, and that if I ultimately want to bypass it, you're powerless to stop me.

He throw several years worth of mod menus because they were doing things they weren't supposed to, and that wasn't even going against player control policy (which he has adamantly defended before). So I am not so sure about that. I can tell you that most probably Graf has already taken notice and made his mind about this mod as early as he read the thread. What he is going to do exactly none of us can possibly know without him saying, but it's certainly very possible.

Mappers can create what they want. And players can play as the please. You obviously have a problem with that, since that's specifically what you quoted. It's as if I want to use Cheat Engine on a game that is single player only. I have, and I will. Because once I have it in my possession, I can do with it what I want. And it can even go beyond that: people can modify any mods/maps/games to play as they like, and bastardize as they want, and as long as it's for personal use it's all fine and dandy. Want to stop it? Don't release it to the public. You can't control how people get their fun out of your own creation. You can mark a clear path of "this is designed this way", put blocks to stop things you think might be counter-productive or don't like, inform players of their own misdoings... But all this may be circumvented, and if you get angry about how others use your creation, that's your problem. Same with fandom, fan edits, almost anything fan related really. You just have no control about what others do. Also, my main point is that ultimately, this mod is just going to be blocked in-engine. So it's just defending a losing proposition. Graf Zhal has repeatedly said he wants the player to have ultimate control over the game, and it's his engine. And no one is telling mappers what to do, as you seemed to imply. You want to use this mod in your creations? Go ahead. Just know this mod doesn't have much future or won't stop someone from jumping in your map if they really want to.

This is beyond stupid. All this is going to accomplish is that Graz Zhal incorporates the file posted above, or an even more robust in-engine method to undo the changes in this mod, and in the worst case for people who might like this idea, even block any further attempt in the future to nullify jumping/crouching beyond what Graf considers reasonable. Which is completely fine, since it's his source port to begin with. And his philosophy really resonates with a lot of people, because they like to be in control of what they play, and most importantly, how. I wholeheartedly agree on the idea that players should be notified of the possibility of jumping/crouching breaking a map, but there's nothing stopping current mappers from doing so without going out of their way to enforce something that goes against the will of the player. It can also be done via ZSCRIPT in a similar approach to how this mod works, but the approach taken here was clearly different. The idea was not to warn people: that was secondary. The idea was to FORCE people to play how you want. The current (Z)MAPINFO solution already works, since it must explictly be turned on every time you restart the engine. I find it excessive to try to completely shut down something for the sake of vanilla. Fuck that. More than half of Doom's ongoing players couldn't care less for vanilla, playing almost exclusively with gameplay mods, and trying to take control away from the player is not going to end well. It has taken... what? A day for someone to post a way to especifically block this mod? People like to be able to do what they please when they play, and they have every right to do so.

Hi all! I just registered so that I could cast my vote as well. Silly how something so simple can make you register somewhere. xD I've been lurking these forums for long. Anyways, my votes are: [10 points] Winter's Fury [ 9 points] Hell on Earth Starter Pack [ 8 points] Back to Saturn X E1: Get Out of My Stations [ 7 points] Insanity's Edge [ 6 points] Zdoom Community Map Project Take 2 [ 5 points] City of the Damned - Apocalypse [ 4 points] ZPack [ 3 points] Unloved [ 2 points] The Ultimate Torment & Torture [ 1 points] Zen Dynamics