Kaos

Ehy there, I found this in one of the boxes of old stuff. It's the original complete version of doom, dated in 1993 but it comes through a Italian distributor. The labels on the disks are blue instead of red and the manual is not the English one but a Italian translation. Does it have any value?

No, they look at sales to measure success. The aim is to make money, whatever critics did like it or not. Eventually I hope they will review the difficulty levels names and rename IMTYTD game journos instead so it's clear to them what they're supposed to play at.

Immediate GOTY.

And this is why we well know that TLOU was going to receive all the awards.

I see, unfortunately I'm not a person that plays extensively this kind of games, so I wouldn't be able to answer your question. I can think of F.E.A.R and of course, back in the days, Hexen that has weapons tailored to fight specific monsters better (but not one shot them) and needed a weapon swap since the quantity of mana (ammo) present in the game was indeed scarce. Surely Doom Eternal did not invent the wheel. Maybe it reinvented it, but after all is the same concept we know from ages.

The definition "arena fps" usually indicates multiplayer shooters like Quake Champions or Unreal tournament. Are we on the same page here?

I think it's ok. Doom Eternal can be the holy grail for doom players (eventually maybe an exaggeration, but a pretty good single player technical shooter) but is not too accessible to the standard audience and of course not innovative at all (it's the doom 2016 formula with improvements). I think we unpacked it enough in other threads, it offers a phenomenal gunplay and music score, a engine pushing any hardware to his very limit with no frame rate cap, but when it comes to atmosphere, story and exposition it is lacking. It's made to appeal a doom audience, but not the all audience, and I think it's perfectly fine. Otherwise it would appeal a wider audience but not the core doom audience.

It depends from the game and suits equipped. In super Mario U, 3dworld and odyssey he definitely can.

I don't think we are hitting the nail on the head here. Me and other players who prefer doom 2016 prefer it for the way the story is narrated and his look and feel. Most of players praised the changes in the combat style, so I'm not sure why we are even going there. Then some said some fights feel a bit too much, I can relate because some moments are frustrating, but also this is why there is a sliding scale of difficulty. I think ID come with the right decision. UV is the hard difficulty, not the norm. And a average player will need to put some effort into it. But is doable. You can go in a boss fight, take like 5/6 attempts (sometimes more) and eventually come on top. Nightmare is the hardcore difficulty and push the bar far more up. Still look on YouTube, there are players literally breezing trough it. Ultra nightmare is for them (and they do fail runs believe me, if you follow some of the top on twitch you can see before having that perfect run they fail a lot). The main point is, why the story had to be warped so much? It feels it lends more on fantasy than sci fi and to me it does not feel right. From the premises of 2016 there are too many loopholes and things I can't really get behind. On the other side I appreciate the fact he goes back to a colourful world depiction where there are not only shade of greys, where hellish landscapes are more creatively created and they have a organic feeling that resembles classic doom, even if they don't reach the perfect fusion of tech and hellish of classic doom. Then there are the floating page issue. In doom 2016 I appreciated the slayer testament narrated with a ominous voice, and that lines become a legendary meme, meaning how much people did enjoy that. And you still had logs, in that case in the forms of tablets that is more acceptable than floating pages. I don't hate the concept. In eternal it works I think, because eternal has a "cool down" section in the fortress. When you are there you can chill, open your interface and read all the stuff, assign upgrades, look at Easter eggs and so on. It's the chill section, where you can absorb information or go down the basement and try a couple of strategies and weapon mods. Doom 2016 was a journey without respite, where the rhythm don't change. In doom eternal you have sections where the game cool down a bit and stop throwing stuff at you, but since the combat is much more brutal, it wasn't really able to keep that for the all game without exhausting players. But also Doom 2016 was more compelling and always pushing you to see how it ends, is a journey that has a start and reach a end and does this in a way we are familiar with (starting from Mars and ending in hell). Eternal does give us scope, but it's more confused in the journey development, sending us on earth then on sentinel prime and to hell is a very fragmented way where the continuous is broken and the collant that is supposed to keep the journey together is simply not there. I believe no one wants a doom 2016 part 2, but a doom eternal with a 2016 feeling would have been much more appreciated. For me was the perfect balance of arcade elements and immersion. Maybe doom eternal look is more faithful to the classic game, but the classic game was bounded by technical limitations that are no longer there, this was understood and revamped in 2016. Also I believe there is a misconception that stuff like evilution or Deus Vult or other siege maps represent classic doom, while we should look at knee deep in the dead, the shores of hell and inferno instead of other wads.

It could be he destroyed the father life sphere as a sort of insurance should he fail to destroy the dark lord. Who else could replicate the slayer feat to gain access to the sphere? Of course the dark lord. So of the dark lord win he could not kill the father anymore. But if the dark lord win, it's highly unlikely the father would make a difference in his current state.

I am making a doom run with the Keep the Dead mod, and come across the bugged rune trial in argent tower. I passed it with the solution proposed by knightmare (set the persistence of the bodies low, so other monsters can spawn) and was able to finish it. However, once completed the trial, I had the doubt that the game difficulty could be considerably lower because the monsters spawning are less than what I am supposed to get. Can this be confirmed or not? I feel like I'm breezing trough the game (at UV), even if it could be that after playing doom eternal, doom 2016 can be considered quite easier.

There is a lot when you narrate a story, that has to do with suspension of disbelief. Suspension of disbelief is a voluntary act by the beholder to dismiss some points in order to enjoy the story. So of course in doom 2016 there are several arcade components and of course the story is completely invented, but the beholder can overcome these points. Hayden is a men that was dying of cancer and managed to transfer his mind on a robotic body? Cool. But also Hayden is now a angel and he did a bunch of stuff because reasons then he got into a man body just because, and then he got into a robot body and then back into the angel body and then Hayden was the demons... Just LOL. The level of narration in doom eternal reach here the sublime levels of repercussion of evil. To make a example, to me looks like doom 2016 was what Tom hall would have envisioned for doom, doom eternal sounds like Romero took over shouting "I'm gonna make you my bitch" (not that I hate Romero, he's a cool guy). Doom 2016 wasn't for sure the masterpiece of narration, but was telling the story in a way more elegant way.

Honestly speaking, I agree with TheMagicMushroom. How can anyone with a straight face say that doom eternal levels have a high level on environmental storytelling when they are so arcade that even present super mario like sections? Doom 2016 had levels made with a purpose, that was recreating a credible environment. Argent tower is one of my favorite, because you do climb this thing in an arcadey way, but you can feel it has another purpose apart serving as exciting level for a game. Doom Eternal levels have no other purpose apart of being levels for a game (apart maybe Arc Complex and few others). The presence of the mario style fireball obstacles, the obviously placed monkey bars were they do not have any other reasons to exist than be there to facilitate the level navigation, the pillars of meat in gore nest, the extra lives... All these elements make it cleat you are in a game and you're playing a game. Doom 2016 was still more arcade (luckily) than any CoD, but had a more subtle way of communicating it. You can look at a doom level and say "this is just a game level", you can look at a doom 2016 level and see a story and a structure that could be credible outside of the game itself. Maybe this approach is more true to the 1993 classic (in style, not in intentions) but preferring one or another style is just a subjective matter. For me, it's doom 2016.

I believe the theory of "two of the same whole" is becoming more consistent (unfortunately).The doom slayer being Davoth would even explain why he destroys the father life sphere, he has for the father the same kind of resentment Davoth hold. The Slayer endgame would be harvest Davoth essence and become the pinnacle of both demons and Makyrs maybe to save both or maybe to destroy both and let instead humans to thrive. Eventually I still prefer the more "down to earth" doom 2016 storyline.

I was thinking something ever more subtle. Two players "queue" in the final boss screen (but they don't know, since it's just a loading screen) and then they're just pitched vs each other each one thinking he is fighting the boss of his own game. To make it "fair" players who play on nightmare will be pitched with players playing at the same difficulty. Of course this will work at launch, since you can expect several players to play and reach the level more or less at the same time, but once the player base thins the queue time will become too long. It would make a interesting experiment.

Eventually this dlc leave too many points open. Who is the character who uttered NO when khan makyr was killed? Doesn't look like it's the father anymore since he was helping the doom slayer all along. Is not the dark lord since he was still dead. No one knows. I also was thinking something silly for the next dlc. What if at the final boss battle, unknown to players, they pitch one player Vs another one? It would be quite hilarious even if eventually for some will be easiest boss of the game, for some the hardest one ever.

I will be quite surprised if they scratch the multiverse thing entirely. Either they have a extremely clever way of connecting all the timelines without retconning everything (doom 2016 and eternal included) or they will leave behind a plotholes mess. Unless the base assumption that doomguy and doom slayer are the same person is wrong and they are not. So Doomguy ended up staying in hell and becoming the dark lord, while doom slayer is maybe the doom 3 protagonist and the end of doom 3 is actually him being transported to sentinel prime. Eventually as said above, I am not a fan of the multiverse thing since it provide easy escapes and deus ex machina, is the known form of "it's magic I don't have to explain shit" (substitute multiverse with magic and you got it). So I really hope we are not left with this sort of explanation. In his interview Hugo was clear enough that they wanted to turn things up to 11, but it come at a cost of making things a bit cheesy in my opinion.

Awesome thread and interesting read. Of course someone telling you a story isn't the same as watching it unfold, but I'm getting some strange impressions from this. I really liked Doom 2016 story and even if, in a way, backtrack to the classic doom story of exploitation of "arcane forces", I did like the theme of hell energy exploitation with several risks correlated. Hayden as the figure of reckless man of science that has to deal with the unexpected (or maybe quite expected) fall of his employees was fun to witness. It was also clear that UAC was trying to weaponize demons, with the research conducted in Lazarus lab, but the final aim there was left obscure. It was a story that still rely heavily on Sci-Fi elements intertwined with occult themes. With Doom eternal the story twisted more on the occult / fantasy theme, that witness the doomslayer at the center of a plot involving a makyr / demons pact, so a sort of heaven / hell pact for the exploit of lesser races, with the doom slayer hell bent (obviously...) to put an hard stop to such unlikely partnership. It was still in a way enjoyable, but I found it less interesting than the original plot. I see in this DLC things went full fantasy, with ancient evils resurrecting, some kind of plot than turn into something else and a temporary conclusion that ends up with something so similar to the "dark side of the hero" trope. Also a quantity of retconn to transform the original characters into something else. Honestly I'm not sure I really like the direction of this plot, since start to feel like a manga were there is a escalation of the plot until we witness enemies becoming more and more mean, until they ascend to this sort of godhood status, so the fight shift from a mundane plane to something else completely out of scale (at the point that your suspension of disbelief start to break, since the Doom Slayer keep fighting them with a double barreled shotgun). As much as I'm aware that in doom the plot is still something expected to be there but that no one cares about, I don't think the building of this doomuniverse is really going in the right direction. And I would not really like to see the doom slayer challenging his dark side in a end of the saga reveal were maybe we find out that the doom slayer is in reality a supreme being that was split in a good and evil part (sigh!). Not sure if others share the same feeling.

Ok so what are you seeking here is a change in gameplay/approach more than character. Wuold you like it to be more like the classical doom? Or maybe quake? Now as much as quake is the successor of doom in every way, we can classify it as "not doom", because the pace feel a bit different (don't ask me to pinpoint it exactly, I can't).

And then what would change? Do you want a character with a different backstory? Or that act differently? If this new guy has the armor and the ssg (that let's say are the iconic characteristics of the character right now) isn't he going to be the doom slayer anyway? It's a bit like the superheroes. If batman pass the ball to someone else, isn't that other person to be batman as well? And from a point of a external beholder that does not know the backstory what difference would it make? It's still the goddamn batman.

I'm not so sure this would work. In the last games they elevated the doom guy status to a new level, with all this Doom Slayer thing. Doom and his main character are almost indivisible entities. It would like to have a Serious Sam game without Serious Sam or a Duke Nukem game without Duke Nukem (well that did not go well even with Duke Nukem). The point is Doom to be Doom need to be exactly what it is. A fast paced, no reload, first person shooter. When this formula was warped it did not yield the expected results. So you can say, keep the formula and change the guy. But who would be able to face the hordes of hell in the same fast paced and devastating way apart of the doom guy? And as the doom creators said, the doom guy did not have a name because it's supposed to be YOU the player. In the sequels / reboot, the doom slayer acquire a sort of backstory, but remain, like the half life protagonist, quite anonymous. They never speak, they never show particular emotions (even if in 2016, the protagonist can convey a series of feelings based on his actions of smashing monitors and basically giving Hayden the middle finger when he tries to provide instructions). So even if we assume the next doom will have another character, if he will be able to play the same way and convey the same kind of feats, would not be end up to be like a doom slayer? Does really matter who is the doom slayer since, in the first place, it doesn't matter? You can take away daisy, you can take away the room in the fortress with all the toys and guitars and replace it with a room with gritty trophies instead. You can even take all that out and have the classic doom, where there is a guy with guns traversing levels full of demons. Hell, you can take even out the SSG and have a perfectly fine classic Doom 1. What can't you take away is the general design of the game, the fast paced action and the design of the enemies. Just switching from Doom to FreeDoom, with that custom skins, did not feel to me to play Doom. If you play Heretic for example, same engine, same more or less characteristics, he does not feel fantasy Doom. It feels Heretic. Doom is defined by a strong identity that makes it what it is, and it's not the character that traverse the levels but the levels themselves and how do you feel while you traverse that levels. They make you feel like "let's do this" or "come get some" (well maybe not exactly like that, would be too much Duke Nukem). They do not make you feel scared or powerless. So eventually, no matter who the Doom guy or the Doom Slayer really is, in his own game he will be the Doom Slayer, because it can't be otherwise. Is not the Doom Slayer that makes Doom what it is, but it's Doom that makes the Doom Slayer. They're a indiscernible equation, a indivisible paradigm. Because a Doom Slayer can be temporary. But Doom is Eternal.

Reading about tom hall design ideas, looks like several of them were implemented in doom 2016. For example the hand you need to acquire to open a door or the cinematic way the shotguns get acquired. With doom eternal they reverted to a more arcade approach from one side, but they put cut scenes and a more "expanded" lore on the other side (I don't want to say deep or better, since to me it really wasn't a improvement). I need to say I enjoyed the "feel" of doom 2016 way more than eternal but doom eternal feels better in other fields, and there are a bit of mixed feelings that I can't really point out. I can't really say doom 2016 is better than eternal (especially some weapons like the plasma gun, doom eternal one is much much better), but I enjoyed the general feel much more. Not sure why, maybe eternal feel a bit too cheesy at some points? Eventually the balance between story and action in doom 2016 was just perfect. It was feeling like you were the one making the story instead of just spectating it.

Ah thanks, I thought that line was referred to the Doom Slayer, not the demons. It's more clear now. But eventually isn't UAC openly supporting demons as the propaganda hologram proves?

I think doom as "the most christian game" it's just a meme, so I hope the tone of this thread is sarcastic. Talking about lore, I did not get well the UAC and ARC involvement in the story. From Doom2016, I get UAC is in Mars for the delicious free energy and Hayden is exploiting this energy for his own reasons and aims. Then some demonic force infiltrate UAC and estabilish a sort of secret cult headed by Olivia Pierce. They take over and open a demonic portal, Hayden "resurrect" the Doom slayer and butts get sorely kicked, then the Doom slayer is sent to a undisclosed location (maybe back in hell, maybe somewhere else). What happen between doom2016 and doom eternal is quite unclear. We would think Hayden regain control of UAC and keep exploiting hell resources but there is something else happening, since the Makyr start to interfere there and there and looks like the UAC corruption do not stop with Olivia sect on Mars but run way deeper, at the point portals are opened on earth and cause the invasion. Then Hayden return and head ARC to oppose the demon invasion. Eventually they resist but their success is very limited. Then the Doom Slayer returns from his forced holiday since it's time to put boots soles to demonic asses again. Now is ARC complex there are scenes were the UAC propaganda girl appears and spew some pro demonic lines. Why she is there? Why the ARC guys let demonic propaganda play in their complex? After the ARC complex level, the Doom Slayer goes to dig a hole in mars, and the people there have UAC logos and so on. So since UAC sided with demons we should expect them to oppose the doom slayer. But just at the start someone says: the directors said to let him pass. Then someone ask why. Also they're fighting demons, but UAC support demons. The UAC soldiers looks like they want to put a fight against the doom slayer but upon encountering him they're too scared to do so. So what's exactly happening? There is a loyalist side of UAC and a corrupted side? What's the link between UAC and ARC?

Their breakable demon system work quite well for this purpose. It's a shame they did not implement it in the unmodded game, eventually with just an option to switch on and off.