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eulo

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  1. BTSX (episode 1) is incredibly boring, I stopped caring around map10 or so. Every level felt like the same, the whole episode lacked progress, and was just dragging, dragging and dragging. DTWID series is like pretending you're Romero, Petersen or McGee without knowing jack what made their styles unique. I've played some good wads, these don't belong to them. But this is highly irrelevant in this argument, I've never liked the like-hunting style trollposting, no mattter if the Christ himself is doing it.
  2. The Pit is an awful level, and has no connection of any kind to Sigil imho. It just doesn't make sense, has no sense of place, progression is confusing, and texturing is bad. The Chasm on the other hand is one of the better levels in D2. It still has some of the Petersen style flaws like bad texturing here and there, but it's a highly memorable map with some interesting ideas. At least how I see them.
  3. Yay, you got your wanted likes, let's move on... (and don't even try to understand what I was talking about)
  4. I love E1M4. Another nice innovative element, the numbered switches. I mean, it just makes you feel there is an actual progression in the switch hunting instead of being a chore. And that compmaze with the rising catwalk is just a preview of Sigil, except in techbase style.
  5. Yet, despite the map's modern approach, it looks incredibly polished and pro. Played it 3 times, and know most locations by heart. I think the sense of place is what separates most good wads from bad ones. I hope the maps non-BD version fix will come out one day.
  6. Really, I give up.... haters gonna hate. Oh wait: Just one little thing. Mentioning Plutonia is not valid. That was the most innovative wad of the 1990s. Despite this, the teleport back segment and the cages are totally different there than in Sigil, not to mention Map29, which has nothing in common with E5M5.
  7. Sigil has - eye switches - pictured doors for ending - catwalks - important secrets that are quintessential to your progression - glowing cracks on floor and ceiling - crusher maze - Minotaur maze - teleports that throw you back to previously visited areas with more enemies - large cages - sinister town with infested buildings and other minor things like that interesting lost soul start in M8, or the secret area in M1 And all of this in a 9 map episode. Good luck picking your favourite wad has this many of memorable and/or innovative stuff. You probably have to go back to Plutonia to see such innovative design. But this doesn't make Sigil professional. NRFTL is not that innovative, yet it's a highly professional work as well. Cynical just got it right. Working in the gaming industry for full time job gives a big edge for professionals, who understand (or learn to understand) stuff like how to cooperate with the game producer, the graphic designers, the sound director, the other designers, the numerous beta testers, they are aware that their product is thrown into the market and their job depends on the game's success. They understand rules like how to make levels for a bigger crowd than a community of 50 to 100 members, which knows the actual game by heart, and unsee flaws that average joes spot early on. Can you really expect stuff like Deathless, NEIS, DTWID or even Valiant or Ancient Aliens on the market? Do you think that lesser Doom players would enjoy remixes of the early maps without any kind of remarkable additions or more innovative stuff without keeping the spirit of the original game (and with annoying difficulty/slaughter for most people)? I sometimes wish some of the more talented community members make a group and make an Ion Maiden type game for the idtech1 with commercial purpose. That would be huge. Members of that team would learn immediately what is the professional approach especially if their product is getting major exposure.
  8. The amount of praise? This thread basically ended in Romero bashing. I hope the master doesn't read this.
  9. Redemption of the Slain... since it's not that well known wad it wasn't a good idea to bring it up.
  10. Of course opinions can differ, everyone can say ie. Limp Bizkit is better than Pink Floyd, and there are no objective criteria that prove that statement wrong. Remarkable, original levels with new ideas (without altering the original game's style) is a pretty strong argument though. Deathless (episode 1 at least) is more or less using the original ideas for the umpteenth time, was made in a few days, levels are very similar, while Sigil created a brand new experience without detouring from the original style. That's quite objective statement, and hating that new experience is the subjective part of it.
  11. It seems I opened a can of worms with this thread sadly. I decided to give Deathless a try, since it was directly compared to Sigil as a reference point of a good, cacowad worthy UD wad this year. I played episode 1 only, read episode 3 and 4 are not very good, but episode 2 should deserve a try as well. As much as I respect Jimmy, honestly comparing this to Sigil is completely delusional and biased IMO. Not that the episode was any bad, nice timesink overall, but really... the levels barely progress. You play the exact same thing in 9 parts. There was a nice touch in level 5 for atmosphere, but it had been done to death already, and in more impressive ways. The baron stuff in the end used a nice mini-slaughter twist, but that's all. The secret level is a Gotcha remake. The rest is completely unremarkable, there is no real sense of place, levels don't have their identity, there were the frequent push-button-go-to-door-get-the-key-beat-monster-closet-repeat stuff. The maps were made in 9 days (36 maps), which sounds somewhat cool, but gives you a warning that quality might not be there. I'm not a big fan of Perfect Hatred, it's my least favourite Romero level by a mile, but doing a speedmap session for once is ok, for 4 episodes, it's not, other than the curiosity. Deathless episode 1 IMHO was just an autopilot episode, with the mixed feel of computer generated levels, some out of place graphics, and reused ideas of old maps. You can hate Sigil's polarising gameplay, but play it once, and you will remember every level, probably every location, and won't forget it any time soon. It's a mapset of an innovator, not a follower. Just look at the random pics I made from YT videos below: One pic is from Deathless episode 1. Which was that level? Other is from Sigil. Which was that level? You know the second one, and doubt you know the first.
  12. While NRFTL and Sigil have vastly different approaches, with the former being a traditional but extremely polished and accessible mapset, and the latter being experimental (although I for one can see Nightmare Underworld as a map in NRFTL with some D2 assets), and intentionally throws you into the uncomfortable hell, but the two still feel to me as mapsets where vintage Doom style excels with strong sense of constant change and progression without repeating themselves, or overstaying their welcome.
  13. How No Rest for the Living (NRFTL) or Sigil would be treated without the "official" and "John Romero" tags? The same can be asked about E1M4b and E1M8b as well, and to a lesser extent Redemption of the Slain (RotS) too with it being one of the NRFTL guy's project. Arcadia Demade is also a map by a pro (Bioshock author JP Lebreton), and was exposed by Romero's gameplay. I've seen various opinions that these mapsets are exposed only because NRFTL was an id protected official episode, while Sigil was the project of the legendary Romero. Would they have been given the same exposure if just a random guy appears on the forum and says: "hello, this is my first episode, what do you think?" Would NRFTL and E1M8b (or Arcadia Demade) have gotten cacowards in that case? This is a very interesting topic imho, and it had never really been discussed into depth. My personal opinion might be a little controversial here, but this is what I'm thinking: I think both Sigil and NRFTL (and the rest of the stuff I mentioned above) are a little bit more than probably the vast majority of fan project (and all honestly, I have played so far). I couldn't point to the exact thing why, but they just feel.... canonical experiences (except maybe Arcadia). First, they are accessible for more people IMHO than ANY non pro wads. I mean, some say Sigil is hard, but I think it really isn't. It just needs more classic approach with the narrow walkways and environmental hazards. But it's a very playable episode, especially on HMP, which used to be the default skill back then. Then, somehow these levels have layouts that are more clear, and progression is never an issue in them. You always explore a new type of area, you always feel you're in a middle of an adventure, instead of hitting the switch, go back to the door, get the key, kill the spawned monsters, go to the door, repeat. Key hunting in these maps are just side effects of constant exploration. This kind of chore almost never appears in these maps, or not in the level when it ruins the fun. Also, these maps seem to have a better sense of place. With a few exceptions like the uncharacteristically mediocre secret level in Sigil, you can memorize all the locations, you can relate them even if they are fictional places. There is always a visual narrative, and it never gets worn out. I've seen some very good, even wonderful visual narratives in non pro wads, but they were either looked too different from Doom's original style (think Ancient Aliens for example) or overstayed their welcome (many megawads suffer from these). I also think when people start making id style wads, they always ended up being remaking the old stuff again. I don't think it's particularly great on long term, as said pro levels always end up using new things, just within the style of the original Doom. The shootable eye mechanic was the most famous of these. Who would have thought this can work? And it works. Now you can't even see that thing again without wanting to shoot it. NRFTL is less revolutionary, but it still had distinct visual narratives within the old limits, like the way the layouts constructed (and 8 type shape, when you consistently move in a linear path, but often end up in a previously seen location, and the rare case of backtracking like in RotS yellow skull, there is an alternate path to the door you haven't seen. The use of secrets is also clever in NRFTL, and the levels all looked different with telling a different story. Squibbons's approach is very interesting as he made 4 different maps with the same red tiles, and all ended up extremely different in their layouts and feel. In short, I think these mapsets/maps would have worked without the official/Romero tag in them, and they were all cacoward worthy stuff easily. They look like something that feels commercial (RotS and Arcadia less so, one because of the Brutal Doom compatibility, which hurt it a little, the other has some user vibes like a bit more confusing layout). I can't honestly think of too many other Doom projects that can be sold commercially by id honestly. There might be some minor stuff that are missing in them maybe or I don't know. I hope I didn't hurt anybody with this thread, but I think this is worthy of it's own discussion.
  14. eulo

    Doom map tropes you love & hate

    OMG, this is so true. +1 sent.
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