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ocelot

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  1. ocelot

    Compet-n Resurrected

    We face the question here of which is better -- getting Compet-N back now, with a number of issues and questions yet to be resolved, and getting it back after an unknown amount of time. Adam Hegyi has so far proven irreplaceable. He had the motivation and expertise to detect cheating and run a quality site in a professional way (he even was a top player on the side). Compet-N was one of the best things things the Doom scene has seen. Riding the wave of its popularity and prestige, Adam made the well-intended decisions of including PWAD's and the annual Golden Cyber Awards. These additions were enthusiastically received and increased the player activity and popularity of Compet-N even further. The tradeoff, however, was that they critically increased the workload of the sole administrator to the point where it became too much for a single, unpaid volunteer. It is apparently way too much work for volunteers to maintain a very high-quality site that at the same time accepts a myriad of categories and PWADs. That is one reason I share Anders's vision of returning C-N to its roots by limiting it to the IWADs and the three original categories. This will presumably keep the maintenance workload bearable for unpaid volunteers while maintaining quality of submissions, fierceness of competition, and the prestige of the site. As a secondary modification, I am also in favor of having the smallest time unit count, because I see it as being conducive to a further increase in demo quality and a further incentive for perfecting each record. Nothing with glitches would be safe, and everything would tend towards perfection. The track running World Records aren't rounded off to full seconds, and I don't feel like Doom World Records should be either. The policy of rounding the times down has resulted in that a few "less prestigious" -nomonsters records (such as map01 and e1m1) are of much higher quality and much more polished than the corresponding, "prestigious" UV Speedruns, since the latter are impossible to beat by a whole second. Introducing millisecond times would remedy this. However, I must emphasize that this question is way secondary, as it does not tie directly to the core problem stated above, and it could easily be debated at a later point, even after the hypothetical replacement site was launched. The way I see it is as follows: getting Compet-N back immediately, but with unresolved issues, has the advantage of a possible resurge of activity that might be significant. Its disadvantage is a greater workload of maintenance and a greater risk of a cheater-infestation that might dissuade some of the most hard-core and passionate players (this resonates with me) from participating in it. Waiting until the issues are resolved has the advantages of reducing the workload of maintenance, attracting the aforementioned player type, and maintaining the prestige of the name Compet-N. Its obvious disadvantage is that the initial challenges of setting such a site up might deter the whole thing from actually materializing, which would portend more years wasted waiting in vain for a replacement and the possible resurge of player activity that such a thing might entail -- and we have been waiting for 7 years already. However, I personally would rather keep waiting for a good replacement than launch something incomplete and issue-ridden bearing the name of Compet-N. I feel Adam did such an admirable job with Compet-N that his legacy should be honored by withholding that name from anything falling short of its quality. They are huge boots to fill. Just my two cents, though.
  2. ocelot

    Kim "Mutator" Malde passed away

    My condolences to everyone who knew him, especially to Anders, who must have played more deathmatches with the guy than can be counted with three-digit numbers. I met Kim in 2000 at the Stavanger lanparty ("Norlan"), where he was on a good SG roll that made him downright pesky in his strongest map1 performances. However, as many have pointed out, Kim's exceptional talent was artistic and creative rather than cyberathletic. AV20 "Misri Halek" must be in the top 3 of the most legendary single-player Doom maps of all time, not to mention Kim's other brilliant contributions, such as the maps 11 "Castle Gardens" and 23 "Blood Sacrifice", to what just might be the best vanilla doom megawad seen to date. I second Bahdko's opinion that the mega map Kim was working on ought to be made available to the public in some form, at some juncture, so that people would also get a glimpse of what Kim was capable of when there were fewer engine limitations restricting his artistic genius. May you have more peace and happiness wherever you reside now, than you did in your shortened stay on this plane of existence.
  3. Does someone feel like uploading Vile's pl32 to youtube? It sounds worth watching.
  4. And what was this E1M7 uv-max records challenge? I took a peek at the demo site youall have. Well...it's a start. I didn't realize there was an actual site up. It's way messier that compet-n was though, and it's harder to find the actual records. I'd appreciate if the fastest runs in each category for each map were always on top of the list. Also, some of my very own runs are missing! Who did I piss off to be so discriminated against? Take e3m5 for example. It doesn't even list the fastest single-player UV Speed, neither mine nor HJ's pacifist run. What's up with that? Nomo runs seem to be listed only occasionally, and they're not the actual fastest runs. Hum... It seems a sporadic collection of demos that fails to offer an competitive speedrunner an accurate list of the current records on each map? Or am I missing something?
  5. Dew... Ian's run was NOT s40. 5.20 with s50 is not bad at all. As far as I know mine and AdamH's 5.25 is the optimal time with s40. Anyone who proves me wrong will seriously impress me. That shit was HARD. Really...I mean it was admittedly in 2001 and I got a bit better later, but that was also a short map and you can only improve upon it so much before hitting the ceiling. 5.25 felt pretty much like a perfect s40 run. I didn't see where one could possibly have gone faster.
  6. I think we just have to accept that we will probably never see every record that has been recorded, and most definitely not if we count nomo too. Hi Jango, that bastard, did e2m5 nomo in 26 seconds and never even let me see the demo. I think he just deleted it. But because it was him, I have zero doubt that he actually pulled it off. Who knows what else he casually beat and then didn't bother keeping the file. Some records have been lost for good. Not much point in dwelling on that fact since it won't bring them back. Nomonsters running was something that I really enjoyed, but since DANG died so early, I stopped uploading stuff there pretty soon. And you know what, it might have been for the same reason as with compet-n. There were lots of great runs rotting without recognition in the incoming dir, so I figured "meh" on uploading more. I think besides the uploaded ones and map2, I put in some work and recorded pretty good (back then anyway) runs on map17, map31, e1m3, e2m1, e2m3 (warmup for UV Speed), and e3m5 (same thing). I think my map31 time was around 29.80, but I can't recall the rest. I think many times my goal was beating the official record (the one in the the record tables) by half a second. I doubt I was ever even the worst guy about hoarding records. Sedlo and Hegyi were definitely known to do so. I remember when the fight over Ev13 Speed broke out between Waldon and Dev, Sedlo mentioned to me in a subordinate clause that he had had a faster time for years. He especially was way more concerned about dropping people's jaws than about gathering points. And if he felt like his run wouldn't drop jaws, he'd not bother uploading at all. I think the introduction of the Golden Cybers contributed to making me much the same way. Especially after that, I always wanted my name to be a kind quality guarantee, and I'd rather hold on to a record-beating run than upload it if it didn't meet my aesthetic standards. For instance, the dare-I-say-optimal coop maxkill of map01 that NC and I uploaded in 2004 was not our first or even fastest record-beater. We rejected a completely legitimate 16.85 because it didn't look quite as nice as we would have preferred, and we wanted to have a strong candidate for the Best Cooperative Run trophy. ;) As for my own unreleased runs, it's not simply about "this place not being good enough." I was working on that stuff pretty passionately in 2005 when it still seemed as if c-n were going to be updated. When there was no update, my motivation began to sag. There was amazing stuff in /incoming that wasn't getting due recognition. That meant neither would my runs. I nonetheless kept working at it less frequently, until eventually system upgrades came and there was no longer a proper way to run the vanilla executable or to get quickstart, which was another blow. However, all this talk, plus the watching of demos, has somewhat whetted my appetite for speedrunning again. I think if Compet-N had a successor and I had quickstarts, I'd still hold on to those runs and try to polish them a bit more. =P Paska: Sedlo generally didn't care very much for nomo though. It wasn't prestigious enough. Not enough glory. ;) So I think you can feel safe that he's not hoarding anything in that category that has you beat. I think map02 was a rare exception. All the biggest guns with the exception of Hi Jango tried their hand there, so the best times got to be quite badass. All this reminiscing is somewhat bringing back the sting of havig missed the exit switch in those 24.54's. :/ Also, you mentioned that you "would have uploaded" a 24.80. Where? Here? Do the people on this thread actually watch nomo runs or care about them? Is there a record table being maintained somewhere? Another question: what port do you record with? Are the resulting demos vanilla-compatible? Do you get quickstart? It's really hard to imagine a 36.02 without the jump on map24 without quickstart.
  7. Posting times without demos of the runs themselves would be like test-tube-impregnating your wife. It gets the job done if you need offspring, but the best part is missing. To me, demos were always more than just vehicles of competition. They were displays of skill and works of art, both of which elements would be missing if I were only to post the times. Also, people may be forgetting that I am taking a risk by not uploading those things. Someone else could accomplish the same things while I procrastinated and then s/he'd get all the glory. You all should bear that in mind. The risk DOES exist. I think part of what caused all these flames was that many people don't realize how passionate people like myself or Andy were/are about speedrunning. I spent a fucked-up amount of time between 1997 and 2008 upon becoming good at this game, in both single and multiplayer. I used a strong expression because in retrospect, I really wish I had invested all that time and energy on something more useful that gaining bragging rights in an fringe internet community. Well, it's done. And with a huge investment like that comes a certain amount of pride. When you've (mis)spent a decade on something, you're inclined to be a bit touchy about having your efforts slighted. That's why the "we are the shit, the old farts couldn't hang if they were here" mindset I read between the lines of Sav88's initial comment rubbed me the wrong way. and I'm pretty sure it did Andy too, though he's way too polite to say it. But let's not get into that anymore, as the flames seem to have died down already and people seem friendly with each other. I will also note that some of the most freakishly talented players that I've known don't seem to take themselves quite so seriously. Maybe it's because they didn't have to work as hard and are therefore less ego-invested in it all. Vile seems a good example, his learning curve in 2001-2002 was extremely rapid, and I've always found him the most likeable of the great players. On the topic of cheating, I'll say that I mostly share Andy's sentiments. I will say that I think coming clean about it is better than not doing so, but having crossed that line once still casts a serious shadow of doubt in my mind whenever the player posts something. I think it's a little like steroid use in sports and athletics: if you've used them once, you're NEVER going to be a clean athlete again, ever. I have felt the temptation myself. Back in 2003 or so, Sedlo had me beat by one (1) gametic in map02 nomo. I think his time was 24.62 and mine 24.65. Granted, it was only nomo, but I had quite a bit of pride invested in that map, and so did he. This had me quite displeased and so I nomoed the map some more. Eventually I had two runs where I reached the exit 0.08s faster than him, in what I think would still today be really good runs. Both times I slightly missed the rather narrow exit switch. All it would have taken to fix this was to adjust the final TurnLeft gametics by just a few units. Who woulda noticed or suspected anything? However, I knew that if I crossed that line, all my work to become a respectable player would amount to nothing. Therefore, I just swallowed the bitter pill of having come up short one step from the finish line. Another example: One of the most legendary Compet-N players of all time once trusted me with a demo of his attempt at beating one of the most legendary single-level runs of all time. The official record was obviously a high millisecond time, and this attempt was an xx.00, an effort that looked TAS-like, a clear visual improvement on the already very impressive run. One gametic from beating what many probably already considered an unbeatable record. I hacked that demo for shits and giggles, and I moved the final Use command (yes, it's a switch exit) one gametic earlier. There, now the demo looked exactly the same, and now it broke the barrier. Now it was XXminusone.97. Then I deleted the hacked demo. I'm sure it had crossed this player's mind too to simply adjust the ending a bit to get rid of that inconvenient little gametic. He never did it though, and the old record still stands. That's because you don't cross that line. Period. Because if you cross it, you can't uncross it. You can certainly say it's just a game. So is football. So is soccer. So is tennis. In those games you get a ban for cheating. And if you get caught enough times, it's a lifetime one. This fellow has only gotten caught once, and it was on his own, unprovoked confession. That does count for something. He was only what, 15? So maybe... maybe. But if I am personally to trust his runs again someday, it's gonna take a while. Meanwhile, as Andy said, it's not like there aren't worse crimes in the world, and he's certainly free to enjoy the game like the rest.
  8. You a Finn? That'd be pretty cool. =P No, my last "serious" map18 nomo contribution was the s40 run from 2001. Man, 2001 was eleven (11) years ago. :/ I guess the time was 21.22? A couple of years later I played a bit of nomo with s50 and did a some 20-second exits. It might have been as a warmup for my lv18-021, not sure now. Anyways, I think DANG was already dead by then, and those runs weren't as hard worked as the s40 one either, so I never uploaded them.
  9. One should exercize great caution in posting statements like this. Another poster already established that the maxkill attempt in question did not, in actual fact, contain any techniques unknown to the speedrunning community 10 years ago. If you really do maintain that this run contains new tech that wasn't known a decade back, please do enlighten me. Inactive as I may be, my interest in doom gameplay remains. I have not followed this thread regularly at all, but the picture I'm getting is that we have 2 players of notable talent contributing actively -- good old stx-Vile and this new prospect who calls himself Paska. Things were better for speedrunning 10 years ago. Firstly, we had Compet-N, which motivated players much more than a solitary Doomworld thread. I might myself feel more inclined to upload the records I have lying around if there were more left of Compet-N's magnificent splendor than this thread. Secondly, even if we restrict ourselves just to capable maxkillers, stx-Vile, Adam Hegyi, Henning Skogstø, myself, Anders Johnsen, and Vincent Catalaa were all active back then, and definitely capable of improving upon nearly any maxkill of this length. No max run of 5 minutes is ever optimal, and this particular run still has a bit of slack in it. Usually, in my experience, the only way a run of this type ever gets squeezed down to a time where it's really bitchy to beat (while still not being optimal, as that is simply not possible in runs of this length) is after a long and bitter back-and-forth battle over the record, or after someone of exceptional talent spends an exceptional amount of time on it (as in the case of PL32). So I'd just like to comment that any insinuation that the current bunch of active players is somehow superior to the ones that battled for points on Compet-N, unless backed by heavy proof, runs the risk of really rubbing people the wrong way.
  10. ocelot

    Compet-n discussion [split from sticky]

    Well, I miss the old times when compet-n was alive, and everytime an iwad record of the major categories was beaten, it was a big deal. Now we have one forum thread with a small bunch of regulars left of all that. I've got some stuff lying on my HDD, but that's where it's staying for now. Waiting for better times...
  11. Even if I already had something, I might choose to wait until compet-n is revived in one form or another before choosing to upload. There are already lots of great demos languishing in /incoming without the recognition that they deserve, Hi Jango's contributions in particular. This is a sad thing for DooM speedrunning, and does not particularly increase my willingness to upload eventual fruits of hard work.
  12. Wow. I believe this is the greatest speedrunning feat since the new 30nm. Congratulations.
  13. ocelot

    Dylan 'Toke' McIntosh, R.I.P.

    Toke was part of the small group of players I was introduced to when I found Doomserv in the fall of 2000. I still remember my first DS game with him, it was map1 at 350ms without ticdup. The only known and working ways to play doom online back then were using zdoom in some way. I didn't know back then which way Toke would go, but a year or so after when I got back to the deathmatch scene after a year of no internet, he had become a supporter and of the authentic mode of play, something that a purist like myself heartily appreciated, and we always got along well. I finally met him at a lanparty in South Riding, Virginia in August of 2003, and liked him immediately. In real life, I could not sense any of the occasional assertiveness of his online personality. Instead, I perceived a likable, easy-going guy who enjoyed hanging out, shooting the shit, and shooting doom marines in a wide variety of maps. Maps at the making of which he was an outstanding talent himself, possessing a superior sense of good gameplay. Whenever I wasn't busy playing doom at the aforementioned lanparty, I would follow Toke and Dominus when they left the gaming area for a smoke break, though I don't smoke myself. They just were the type of guys I liked being around. Now that Toke is so abruptly gone, I feel bad for not stopping by #nightmare2 more often than I did, just to say hi. It never hurts to show the people that you like that you like them, because, as I am crudely reminded, things happen. May God have mercy on your soul, Dylan.
  14. ocelot

    Holy Flurking Shnit

    He did it. Awesome.
  15. ocelot

    Hanger

    I've done 9.57 on ultra-violence without strafe-50. http://www.slimy.com/mirra/e1m1e009.zip. I suppose 8 is possible with st50 if one takes the nomo route, that is, runs straight at the monsters and hopes they all magically step aside...
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