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"Build your artistic holodeck, then build the game inside that." You might have a specific game layout you want to make, or part of one, in which case, go ahead and make that part of the wad. But if you don't have a specific layout in mind, or any layout in mind, or maybe if you care about detailing more than gaming, try this: Make a world. Make an ice cavern or skyscraper or Taj Mahal or swamp or any kind of place you can think of. Use all the terrific special effects you want to make it an interesting place. Maybe take a month or year to think about it and touch it up and get it just right. Now, do you really want Doomers with their stupid guns and ugly ammo boxes traipsing around, trampling your nice stuff, and riling your alligators? If not, leave your wad ["holodeck" at this point] as it is, show it to all your friends and relatives--they will be impressed--even gramma and strange uncle George--and please send me a copy, too. If you DO want those rude Marines satisfying their filthy bloodlust in your precious creation, well . . . do what you gotta do . . . put in some weapons and ammo, get some ear plugs, and stand back [and send me a copy in this case, too]. The advantages of this approach are that you get to do absolutely as much detailing as you want to do, you don't have to sacrifice anything about detailing to gameplay, you don't even have to have gameplay if you don't want it, gameplay isn't going to be harmed by the detailing, and in fact the environment you've created is going to give you ideas about good ways to layout a game. So build your artistic holodeck, then build the game inside that. I talk more about this in my full review of Greenwar 2. I'm only going to say the following for pre-emption purposes: build it and they will come.

I'm not against detailing. I think detailing can be terrific. I said that in the short review of Greenwar 2 and discussed it a lot more in my full review of Greenwar 2. But once a map maker has finished a map, subsequent detailing should respect the playing field--gameplay should be preserved, as it says in the text file for Greenwar 2. Similarly in meat-world sports, no one tolerates tampering with playing fields in any significant manner.

Shaikoten, you made the claim that detailing and sports have gone together since Roman times [01-29-10 12:07]. When I challenged you about that, you did two things. You gave some possible examples, and you said you didn't see why it mattered. Why did you make the claim in the first place if it doesn't matter? Regarding the possible examples you gave, they are pretty clearly not "detailing" but mostly accidental happenings. Your claim was about detailing. Detailing is done on purpose. Where in the world, or when in history, have sports fields [or battlefields] been "detailed" or "decorated" on purpose?

In Sweden, do they have balls?

Shaikoten [re: 01-29-10 12:07]--I do not agree that "divets and disparities" in playing fields are "detailing" of the game or playing field. I do not agree that advertisements at stadia are detailing of the game or of the playing field. I do not agree that the architecture of a stadium is detailing of the playing field or the game itself [a game has to exist somewhere]. Certainly the examples of meat-world sports detailing you tried to give are nothing like the detailing of Greenwar 2, where entirely new objects are placed on the playing fields and the playing fields are altered in size, shape, and positioning. Shaikoten--I challenge you to give some clear examples of detailing in meat-world sports, comparable to what was done in Greenwar 2.

esselfortium--I'm so terribly sorry, I misread your comment ["Cool, that isn't what actually happens though"]. No, it's not what happens usually, but I find that it works great! Build your artistic holodeck, then build the game inside that. The game blends perfectly with the detailing. [This is the second one I owe you, essel, I owe you one earlier for getting your name wrong, too.]

esselfortium--no! You're on a "detailing team," right? You come along after a wad is made and detail it, right? What I have in mind is making an environment first, then making a game inside it [or not, as appropriate]. This is how and why golf courses are the only detailed playing areas in the meat world.

Rottking--so, we're in agreement about "having a clear playing field that doesn't have a bunch of crap on the floor." Now, my question was about having one single extra item on the game floor. What if there's one flowerpot, or one beer bottle, or one frisbee on the field? The answer in real life is that the ump takes it off. I believe that's how you and everyone else wants it. Rottking--here's what artists might do. Start with the art, then add the game, rather than the other way around. Make an entire glacier or mountain range or city or building or world first, then add weapons and other game items later if it feels like a good place to have a game.

Rottking [re: 01-29-10 09:05], pick a sport you like--football? basketball? Imagine the stadium crew putting a little flower pot on the 50-yard line or under the hoops. What would you say? What would the fans say? What would the players say? Why should Doom and its fans be treated differently? Rottking, your icy detailing of gw2/22 is fantastic, but it doesn't belong on someone else's playing field. Make a "wad" of your own and let us see what you can do with no restraints.

Shaikoten said "[r] was involved in this project from the start." I wasn't.

Shaikoten said [01-27-10 11:40]: "Greenwar 2 . . . was an open and collaborative process. . . . [r] was involved in this project from the start." Neither Shaikoten nor any of his team ever playtested any of the Greenwar 2 maps with me. Neither Shaikoten nor any of his team ever went in any Greenwar 2 maps with me to examine the detailing's interference with gameplay. Neither Shaikoten nor any of his team has ever contacted me before, during, or after the making of Greenwar 2. I am not aware of the "collaborative process" of which Shaikoten speaks.

Gez, kristus, and myk commented on my response to esselfortium. My view is this: esselfortium's detailing is among the best in Greenwar 2, and his detailing interferes relatively little with gameplay. Esselfortium seemed to be apologizing for interfering with gameplay at all, and for this I praise him further.

essenfortium said on 01-14-10 "I'm assuming the reviews of the maps I was involved [with] will prominently feature the phrase "completely and utterly ruined the gameplay". I was retarded with bumpy floor detail back then . . . eeeeeehhhh :\" Essenfortium--thank you for your honesty. That was a very dramatic and significant statment you made, and I credit you with a lot of courage. I hope we can get more detailers talking about gameplay, and more map makers talking about detailing. Thank you again. As for your detailing, I didn't much mind the bumpy floors, and I think your detailing was excellent overall.