skogsto09

DSDA page aka nrftl // nrftl.wad // nerve // nerve.wad Decided to try out the new xbla D2 episode addon. More demos to come for this one? :) NR as in No Rest map01 - The Earth Base - maxkill - 04:37 nr01-437.zip

Map 01 Max-kill in 0:59 yt: https://youtu.be/K8AbokElOeQ av01-059.zip

Map 02 - UV-MAX in 01:32 - av02-132.zip youtube: https://youtu.be/sW8M0tbf27s

A rare contribution from me. Map09 - UV-MAX in 03:31 - av09-331.zip youtube: https://youtu.be/zqzVydwlx9w

I don`t remember seeing you on the compet-n scene in the late 90s early 2000s? because you act like you were there the whole time. You talk about what was "allowed", and fine to "use". We have been over many times on this thread how those ruling lines you refer got interpreted. I dont think it will help if I re-iterate them again. Any software utility, broadly speaking that would give you a benefit, that was not attainable without the given utility where regarded as cheating. This is why you don`t see demos using such software utilities from that era at all. Those few times they were used pre-1998, noone noticed. I am not sure why that is hard to belive for you. I could understand your confusion if there actually was alot of demos that clearly used various utility hacks, but thats not the case either. Perhaps its just about disagreeing to whatever as a principle.

In the post you quoted me from, I give you my answers on your here questions here. The line on what was allowed can be understood by the lack of demos crossing that line. That number of demos have been well documented by now. The intention behind restricting the recording of demos to only the original .exes draws the main line. That restriction where not made out of convenience either. Its not too hard to understand the many reasons behind this. It will never be remotely fair to compare records done under the original .exes with those done on dsda-doom. However a modernisation of doom speedrunning was needed, and has been very welcomed. However for me, the assisted turning would be a step too far over the legacy ruling principles.

As beeing pointed out a few times by now. Just because you could argue that a demo submission technically stayed within the rules, it didnt mean it would automatically be validated. There would be discussions around the topics as they got brought up. The general ruling principle is laid down when restricting the recording of demos for compet-n under the official doom . exes only. Would it then be reasonable to assume that installing 3rd party drivers performing assisted turning alongside of that? I don`t think so. You can understand that by looking at the lack of demos using such tools. The ruleset were not designed to stand the test of time for the coming 20 years when they were put down. I gave my own example of having a demo invalidated because I used "iddt" to spy on enemies. Where it covered by the rules? no...where it invalidated yes. Was there a big discussion around it, no. Thats a feature which is a part of the original 1.9 .exe, no source-ports or 3rd party software needed. With that in mind, you really think you would be able to freely use 180 flip turns in demos and be given the thumbs up? You would probably be kicked out of #nightmare irc channel without warning. Just the fact that you had been looking around for tools like that would have given you a bad reputation. Cheating was a sensitive topic in the 90s. With the likes of UweG and SteffenW using slowmo and their technical insight to cheat in pretty prestigus runs such as full game runs on nightmare. Anyone even bringing up borderline topics would be really risking their reputation and true intentions. I submitted in total of 250+ compet-n demos from the year 1997 - 2005. So I am iterating from that position on how things were back then. Its the best I can give you really. If you still are convinced that you would have your demos validated by using such tools on compet-n from 1998 then by all means. However its not very realistic.

Great work on your research. Noone is calling a piece of hardware "Doom spinning utilities". Its more about the acceptance of a wide range of drivers the various hardware (turning devices) was shipped with. The rule was not to be interpreted for free use in a way that would give you a clear advantage. If you look how the other rules are put down, it would not make any sense to assume. so either. At least not without asking for a clarification. The fact that people never even asked for a clarification, is a clue in itself. That it was considered to be a no-go. As others have stated, that list and the number of demos is mostly from Istvan Pataki, the runs where not by any means high profile either. The use of 180 turn was not mentioned in his text files. So it went unnoticed. AdamW certantly didnt seem to notice Sedlos 180 flip start at least, and he grinded the run down to 0:51. So that would be the only demo that such a discussion could possibly originate from, since the days of Pataki\Widlake era. AdamH himself did runs of the same map (uv speed) and did not use it, or ever used it. So I really dont think its resonable to belive that someone should actually have noticed. The lack of this tool beeing used by the top players at the time, from the AdamH era should be an indication that it was outside of what would be accepted. Compet-n in its infancy from 94-96\97 had a different interpretation on what was considered as cheating, mostly due to poor technical understanding. So yes, the spinning tool mentioned, I can now see original story behind it. However when the AdamH era started, the meaning behind that rule was understood in a more general sense. As in there were no restriction with regards to your hardware\driver setup. Spesifically regarding the various types of mouse+keyboard configs. Some players still felt the need to elaborate what machine hardware they played on. As can be read from the old compet-n profiles. So clearly it was allowed during compet-n in its infancy. However compet-n did not mature with this ruling as it was originally intended from 98 until its end in -05. As can be seen from the lack of demos having these tics. Had the original intent behind the ruling been known or noticed from -98, I`m pretty sure it would be pharsed differently from that point onwards.

Well, thats your opinion. If the context I give you does not make sense then by all means stick to yours. Not going to turn this into a discussion about how you can interpret either way. If you ask chatGPT you will actually get something like: "Yes, the term "utility" can refer to both software and hardware tools. In the context of software, a utility program (or just "utility") is a program that performs a specific task, usually related to managing or optimizing computer hardware or software. Examples of software utilities include disk cleanup tools, antivirus software, file compression tools, and system monitoring tools. In the context of hardware, a utility tool (or just "utility") is a tool used for a specific purpose" A spesific context is not mentioned, so its a little wierd you say everyone uses it in the context of "software" but there you go.

I have given you a fair explanation and a example with regards to how demos were invalidated on terms that were not explicitly covered in the rules. On the basis that it did not comply with the general ruling guidelines. If a ruleset needs to cover every possible angle, explicitly and unambiguously for you to recognize it...then compet-n demos based on those rules shouldn`t be your thing I guess then. By all means, make a thread about windows pausing and get peoples opinions on that. However it would be kinda off topic to go in that direction in this thread if you ask me.

I think it would help if you were familiar with how things where in the 90s, MsDos and how things were generally configured and set up. Various drivers where shipped and used, so the main point was not to maintain a list of all allowed drivers. Ofcourse the rules could have been improved, but like I said in my previous post. Using any tools that gave an advantage not attainable using the vanilla doom exes were strictly forbidden. Even when using codes like "iddt" which is avail when recording demos for everyone was not allowed...it did not need to be mentioned in the rules specifically even. There were no high profiled demos that implemented use of such programs you refer to, as it went under the "unfair advantage" categori. Also its not like it would not be noticed either. If dsda-doom would include a button called "spy on minimap" which entered "iddt" for you 2 times, then we would be in the same situation as now, where I could argue that in the compet-n days it would never be allowed. Where you could just make a counter argument saying there is no mention of it beeing disallowed in the rules. If we actually did not have a direct reference to such a situation, to prove otherwise. However it should give some insight to the context on the general ruling practice. So with that in mind, it should be pretty obvious what such a ruling would be regarding the 180 flip assist.

The main essence and core principle of the compet-n rules are put down in this statement: "Using a different EXE other than DOOM.EXE v1.9 (size 715493 bytes) for Ultimate DOOM, DOOM2.EXE v1.9 (size 709905 bytes) for DOOM2 and Final DOOM, DOOM2.EXE v1.9 (size 722629 bytes) for Final DOOM is not allowed." If the intention was to allow for 3rd party mouse drivers to perform tool assisted movements, that were not achievable by the v1.9 vanilla config key bindings it would have said so. "Various DOOM spinning utilities are allowed." Various hardware variants of the trackball mouse could be bought from different brands. They shipped with different drivers, some had issues with doom, others not. However you were not free to use a driver that actually gave you an assist advantage. The term "utilities" is a reference to the hardware+driver combination beeing used. Otherwise it would have stated "drivers" explicitly. Just because a certain aspect is not explicitly covered by the rules, does not mean it would be allowed. If it did not allign with the general principles laid down, then you would not have a case to argue. I can give you a spesific personal example of that. Nothing in the rules says anything about "iddt" not beeing allowed. I recorded pn08-546.lmp using that cheat (to spy on enemies), admitting to it ofcourse...however my intention was to just show it was possible to complete the map on nm100s. So I wrote the following: "First things first, I used "iddt" in the bluekey room to lure out the cacos etc, so I understand if you don't wanna accept as a fully worthy entry Adam. That's up to you, but it's fine by me if it gets in the misc cat. Or you could just delete it =)" It was understandably invalidated, to noones suprise. Or I could have taken another route, making a case for not violating any rules. That is a spesific incident proving that AdamH (compet-n admin) did not see it as legit. Even tho the rules did not mention it beeing disallowed. You have to interpret rules according to the general core principles, its not like its possible to prove\disprove every instance case by case. So I(we?) cannot cite a spesific instance of AdamH invalidating a demo, where 180 turns asssist were used, however in the ruling context I just gave, is it reasonable to belive he would see a demo as valid if he saw those instant 180 turns? I don`t think so. Because it would be in conflict with the general ruling principles.

MAP05 - Uv-Max in 02:28 sl05-228.zip

MAP02 - UV-Max in 02:44 sl02-244.zip

Time for some "Cave culture" in Sunlust again. map11 Uv-max in 5:29. sl11-529.zip

Sunlust map10 uv-max in 04:51 sl10-451.zip

Sunlust map09 uv-max in 04:58 sl09-458.zip

Sunlust map06 - uv-max 02:41 sl06-241.zip

Sunlust uv-max 05:27 sl07-527.zip

Ahh..I see. What a rookie mistake :) Nah..its fine just delete them. Noted about the unrelated, I`ll get it right next time :)

A few new Sunlust 100\100 maxes: Map06 - 2:45 | yt: https://youtu.be/GFmI_q3sRSo Map07 - 5:34 | yt: https://youtu.be/ORHoVsb95KM Map08 - 5:04 | yt: https://youtu.be/gahgEeLpaYA Had a fun time streaming most of these attempts. Special shout-outs to @ZeroMaster010 and all those who dropped by regulary for your best wishes, raids and support. sl06-245.zip sl07-534.zip sl08-504.zip

Sunlust Map01 maxkill 1:32 yt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjTSJXOhras I probably need a break from this one now, and resume back to it for better tries later. sl01-132.zip

Sunlust Map01 nm-speed 0:36 yt: https://youtu.be/rMlyGMQccTI sl01n036.zip

I am done with this thread at least.

Something must be going on here, I have seldom seen this level of contaminated thinking and reasoning.