Holy crap lots of new screenshots

dsm said:

The problem with the db shotgun is that once you get it, you rarely ever use the sb shotgun again (Doom vets still know its uses, but it's still a rare occurence that they pull out and use the sb shotgun after they've obtained the db) - it also makes the game a helluva lot easier.

I think Id wants to make the game harder and scarier ...

I think the gameplay in Doom2 and the Quake series proves your theory wrong. After obtaining the double barrel shotgun (or super shotgun) the lesser shotgun still remains useful because, a) it conserves ammo (shooting weaker monsters with a strong weapon is a waste), b) it has a higher rate of fire, and c) it´s spread is more focused then the spread of the db shotgun, so it serves for different combat situations.
Also it´s a common exercise of game design to balance out increasing weapon strength with increasingly stronger monsters.

And it would be kinda lame to make the game harder by making the weapons weaker.

Having said that, I haven't given up hope that the db shotgun might return in Doom3, but I must also admit that I'm no longer as interested in the db shotgun as I was, because, as I said, it tends to make things too easy, but also because I'll dislike a relic gun, but I won't be happy about a futuristic db shotty either.

Well, personally I really like side-by-side double-barrelled shotguns in games, but I could very well live without one in Doom3 too. As long as there is a shotgun in I´m fine.
About the design, I wouldn´t want to have an old relic gun either. But a somewhat futuristic db shotgun in the style of the pistol would look great. The pistol doesn´t look typically techy futuristic, but still not oldfashioned, a design like that could work for a shotgun as well, what do you think?

Tetzlaff said:

I think the gameplay in Doom2 and the Quake series proves your theory wrong. After obtaining the double barrel shotgun (or super shotgun) the lesser shotgun still remains useful because, a) it conserves ammo (shooting weaker monsters with a strong weapon is a waste), b) it has a higher rate of fire, and c) it´s spread is more focused then the spread of the db shotgun, so it serves for different combat situations.
Also it´s a common exercise of game design to balance out increasing weapon strength with increasingly stronger monsters.

And it would be kinda lame to make the game harder by making the weapons weaker.

Perhaps, but what I meant to say was that while the sb shotgun is still useful for certain situations after you get the db shotgun, you end up using it very little, because there's typically enough ammo around to use something better than the sb shotgun and the db shotgun works against anything within fairly close to medium range.

It was in fact the Quake games in particular that made me come up with my "theory" - namely Quake 1, where the sb shotgun is truly pathetic (I use it once in a while, but generally prefer to use other weapons) - but also Quake 2 with its assload of ammo and the railgun, you'd tend to let the sb shotgun rust from disuse, because you'd rather use the railgun.

I never meant to say that the sb shotgun is totally useless because of the presence of a db shotgun, I merely wanted to hint at that the Doom arsenal would work perfectly well without the db shotgun (which is really kind of a filler weapon - but an awesome filler weapon nonetheless).

Well, personally I really like side-by-side double-barrelled shotguns in games, but I could very well live without one in Doom3 too. As long as there is a shotgun in I´m fine.

Yes that goes for me too (I love a good db shotgun). I should also add that I hope the db shotgun will appear in an add-on pack should it indeed be missing from Doom 3 itself. Doom 3 will easily be awesome without a db shotgun, but I will actually be a bit sad if it doesn't show up in a later Doom "installment" such as an expansion pack.

About the design, I wouldn´t want to have an old relic gun either. But a somewhat futuristic db shotgun in the style of the pistol would look great. The pistol doesn´t look typically techy futuristic, but still not oldfashioned, a design like that could work for a shotgun as well, what do you think?

I agree completely. The new pistol is probably my fav weapon design for Doom 3 so far. I'd definitely want a db shotgun to look kinda modern, but simultaneously futuristic too. I'd still want the db shotgun to have a large butt like the old one, but not neccesarily wooden this time.

I think the db shotgun's appearance would fit me the best if it was not an official military weapon, but more like a gun that some resourceful fellow with a knack for making guns quickly knocked together into a highly efficient, compatible with the type of ammo that shotguns use in that era, but considerably old-fashioned in operation (break-barrel reloading!), killer weapon.
That would explain why it works in such an old-fashioned way (without having to redo the shotty into a Quake 2 style db shotgun) and why it can use the same ammunition (and not for the time relic ammo) as the sb shotgun.

Just my preference in this case.

Oh and btw Tetzlaff: Always a pleasure having discussions with you ;-)
(Well... ok, "most often" a pleasure...)

dsm said:

It was in fact the Quake games in particular that made me come up with my "theory" - namely Quake 1, where the sb shotgun is truly pathetic (I use it once in a while, but generally prefer to use other weapons) - but also Quake 2 with its assload of ammo and the railgun, you'd tend to let the sb shotgun rust from disuse, because you'd rather use the railgun.

It´s always astonishing how different the individual playing styles of each player are :) Especially in Q1 I use the sb shotgun a lot in long-range situations, because it´s basicly the sniper weapon of Quake, the spread is tight even at long distances (the double shotgun is only effeicient for close- to mid-range), and the high rate of fire almost resembles an automatic shotgun.
The nailgun on the other hand is an example of a weak weapon which becames almost redundant after you get the super nailgun, because it´s in every aspect (RoF, ammo, range...) similar to the super nailgun, but weaker.

In Q2 I find the sb shotgun remaining very useful as well, mainly in situations where you are up against a couple of Guards plus one or two stronger Stroggs. There is nothing more effective for precisly taking out Guards then the sb shotgun. A rail slug for each guard would be a waste.

Oh and btw Tetzlaff: Always a pleasure having discussions with you ;-)
(Well... ok, "most often" a pleasure...)

I´ve seen you posted on Raven´s Quake4 forum as well... would be fun to discuss some Q4 relevant suff with you there :)

Tetzlaff said:

I´ve seen you posted on Raven´s Quake4 forum as well... would be fun to discuss some Q4 relevant suff with you there :)

Yeah, I'd love to discuss sp Q4 related stuff with you too - sadly, Raven's Quake4 forum is full of MP players who don't give a rat's ass about the sp, so getting any intelligent feedback on sp-related ideas is rather difficult.
Furthermore, when nobody else seem to come up with ideas/wishes for the sp part, I get no inspiration and I can't come up with interesting ideas as much myself

In short: there are too many MP fans and not enough sp fans on that forum and I've learnt from bitter experience that I don't thrive too well among hardcore MP players.

Sorry :-(

I think the older shots look better, too, not necessarily from a technical pov, but from a game-playing pov. Darkness not only hides the flaws, it also thickens the atmosphere, and in a game that wants to scare us out of our wits it's not a good idea to have bright lights. Check out any horror movie: it's when the brainless hero decides he's just GOT to check out that thump in the basement, where there's only one dim light bulb working 'way off in a corner, that things really start to get creepy. Eyes glowing in the dark have it all over anything, however big and nasty-looking, in a well-lit room any day.

I hope the final game ships in varying shades of colored gray, with the only bright light(s) being the one(s) shining in your eyes for a moment, briefly - just enough to blind you for a second - when some half-seen creature scrapes past a hanging lamp, making it swing.

Also, the marine's neck is too short...

Oh, a word about the weapons: one of the things that really made me love the original Doom was that some guy (me) was running around in a space station with --- a shotgun!! How much "out of place" can you get? Aren't shotguns what good ol' boys rack up in the back of their pickup cabs? What's it doing on a Martian moon? How bizarre! How completely wrong-era! How inspired! I loved it. I still do.

But yeah, i can admit i wouldn't care if the db shotgun doesnt make the cut, it was a bit too easy to kill off a pinkie in one close up shot compared to Doom 1 where it took 2-4 shotgun bursts... it would be much more scary running backwards thinking to yourself, "Fall Damn You! FALL!!!".

ob3kenob said:

Also, the marine's neck is too short...

Uh no, he's wearing armour made out of metal plates and there are a bunch of tubes wound around his shoulders. The armour conceals where exactly his "natural" shoulders are, so I think we can pretty safely say that his neck ain't too short.

Oh, a word about the weapons: one of the things that really made me love the original Doom was that some guy (me) was running around in a space station with --- a shotgun!! How much "out of place" can you get? Aren't shotguns what good ol' boys rack up in the back of their pickup cabs? What's it doing on a Martian moon? How bizarre! How completely wrong-era! How inspired! I loved it. I still do.

Yeah well times have changed I'm afraid. Nowadays people want things to fit in - they sure as Hell don't wanna see "out-of-place" stuff and Id will have to respect that if they want to sell a decent amount of Doom 3 copies.

What "nowadays people?" You?

And me. If no one else.

Perhaps id will allow players a choice of weapons to be selected for their arsonal up front, before the game proper begins, like choosing a skin, thereby pleasing everybody. Let's hope so.

ob3kenob said:

What "nowadays people?" You?

There are plenty of 'em - just look around on various gaming forums. Why do you think CS is so darn popular?

I also quite clearly remember several comments on another forum regarding RtCW, where people complained about guns like the Venom gun (chaingun'esque weapon)), because they felt that it was "out of place" and not "historically correct".
Oh yes, there are lots of gamers who want stuff to be believable and to fit in.