Doom 3 Too Repetitive

Wobbo said:

. Thats a truly amazing statement. Doom 1 and 2 are absolutely nothing like doom3 at all.

I disagree. I think Doom3 comes pretty damn close to Doom1.

Wobbo said:

Doom 1 and 2 started a phenomenon called speedmapping... this activity will be pointelss in doom3

Who cares?
Oh. And please don't try to tell me Doom1 doesn't get repetitive.

“Who cares?
Oh. And please don't try to tell me Doom1 doesn't get repetitive.”

Your absolutely right, doom 1 a game made 10 years ago also got repetitive after long periods of playing.

It’s a good thing we can always fall back on the tried and tested “compare doom 3 to doom 1 to defend doom 3s integrity” argument. Doom 1 is a technologically defunct game, if you have to step ten years back in time so you can appreciate doom 3 then go ahead, ill just say that that is really pathetic and leave it at that.

As for "I disagree. I think Doom3 comes pretty damn close to Doom1. "

Doom 3: 95% Pitch-black closet rooms, scripted events, claustrophobic corridors, attacked by no more then 3 enemies at a time.

Doom 1: 95% well-lit wide-open rooms, non-scripted events, 5 percent claustrophobic but wider corridors, attacked by no less then 3 enemies at a time.

There’s a real fine line between “appreciating doom 3” and “brainwashing yourself to like it,” ya know.

I’m not trying to wreck your fun, but saying things like “doom 3 isn’t flawed because [previous game X] made ten+ years ago had the same flaw” is just utterly retarded and offensive to the people you’re arguing with.

First of all, LEARN HOW TO USE THE QUOTE TAGS. READ THE FAQ ALREADY!

Black Hand said:

Your absolutely right, doom 1 a game made 10 years ago also got repetitive after long periods of playing.

The point is that every game gets repetitive. Far Cry was the same old "find the key" for instance. Why should Doom3 be any different?

Doom 1: non-scripted events

Walk into a room, it goes dark and imps teleport in. Walk past an area, a secret door opens and monsters are inside. This may not be scripting as we know it, but the effect sure is the same.

There’s a real fine line between “appreciating doom 3” and “brainwashing yourself to like it,” ya know.

There's a big different between "letting people like a game" and "brainwashing them to hate it".

I’m not trying to wreck your fun, but saying things like “doom 3 isn’t flawed because [previous game X] made ten+ years ago had the same flaw” is just utterly retarded and offensive to the people you’re arguing with.

I'm not trying to wreck your fun, but posting crap on a Doom3 forum is utterly retarded and offensive to those who enjoy it. Tell me this, why do you keep posting here?

Doom3's gameplay is very similar to doom's.

Go there, kill monster, find switch, kill monster, find key, kill monster, open door, kill monster, find good pickup which ofcourse is trapped (just like in doom1), kill monster, find switch which ends level.

Doom3 is a truly great game.

Shaviro said:

“First of all, LEARN HOW TO USE THE QUOTE TAGS. READ THE FAQ ALREADY!”

Fair enough.

Shaviro said:

“The point is that every game gets repetitive. Far Cry was the same old "find the key" for instance. Why should Doom3 be any different?”

Stopped comparing doom 3 to games that were made ten years ago, that’s a good first step; next step is to not compare doom 3 to modern inferior games. Doom 3 was in production for 4 years, ID could have implemented a bit more, get over it

FPS games like "splinter cell Pandora tomorrow” and “AVP 2” and “Red faction” have already proved that there’s “more that can be done” Your very tired argument of “doom 3 is like game X so ergo it is acceptable” doesn’t hold water anymore and hasn’t for some time now, get over it.

Can you comprehend that a game like Doom 3 and then games like “Road rash” or “Golden axe” or “Oni” or “Doom1” become repetitive in different ways? Or is that simply beyond your limited scope of reality too.

The trick to your argument is that no one wants to bother forming words into how different games have different levels of replay value. Its just expected that you can comprehend this, I’m sure you actually do but your pretending that you cant simply to prolong this charade.

Shaviro said:

“Walk into a room, it goes dark and imps teleport in. Walk past an area, a secret door opens and monsters are inside. This may not be scripting as we know it, but the effect sure is the same.”

So your point is that doom 3 is scripted, news to me.

Shaviro said:

I'm not trying to wreck your fun, but posting crap on a Doom3 forum is utterly retarded and offensive to those who enjoy it. Tell me this, why do you keep posting here?

Clever wordplay to bad it is irrelevant and obviously not true. Well I’ll bite this one, “because posting things that simply ARNT true and then insisting that they are true is utterly retarded and offensive to those who enjoy these forums.” In addition Doom 3 forums are not reserved expressly Doom 3 fan boys this has been made painfully clear. Get over it.

At this point you need to find a whole new way to defend doom 3, maybe then this will be more interesting. As for me I desperately need sleep, good bye and good night.

Doom3 is fun and so are Doom1 and Doom2. Why not play which ever one you feel like. Doom3 didn't replace anything, the original Doom is not lost.

Black Hand said:

So your point is that doom 3 is scripted, news to me.

Those examples were from Doom1, genius.

Get over it.

Get over what?
I like the game. It seems you are the one who should get over the fact that you don't like Doom3 and move on. What do you gain from bashing it constantly? Are you trying to make everybody hate it? How retarded.

At this point you need to find a whole new way to defend doom 3, maybe then this will be more interesting.

I don't really need to defend Doom3 from anyone/anything. I like the game, you don't. I don't care. What I do care is how you keep bashing it on a Doom3 forum.

As for me I desperately need sleep, good bye and good night.

Please don't come back.

Doom3 is extremely repetitive... but if it's fun to play, what does it matter?

As for saying it is basically the same as the original Dooms, I don't agree. Both classic Doom and Doom 3 have very simplified gameplay (Doom3 moreso to me), but Doom 3 lacks their speed and fluidity in my opinion; instead introducing a more modern FPS style element with the slower move speed and stamina bar.

My first main qualm with the game was how extremely linear it was - I remember always really liking the classic Doom levels where you had a few choices of path to take right from the outset, and then you'd have to narrow them down to find out which way to go.

My second main problem was how I found much of the architecture terribly repetitive throughout the first third of the game - it fit in thematically, but there wasn't very many areas which really stuck out from the others, or in my brain.

//Edit: As for scripting, I agree with Shaviro about the effects being the same. However, the classic Dooms had far more enemies already placed in the level with teleport traps being a rarer alternative of providing enemies, whereas Doom3 used the teleport trap method more than any other.

//Edit2: And goddamnit, keycard hunts were pretty rare in Far Cry.

What makes Doom 3 cool imo, is exactly what people criticize it for: old school flavour.

I'm gonna be honest here: I'm sick and tired of the modern tactical shooters and the increasing amount of complex interface keys that are plaquing FPSs nowadays, therefore, games like Painkiller and Doom 3 appeal to me all the more. I long for simpler times where you didn't have to press a million different keys to play the game at enjoyable levels and where playing a shooter was about quick reflexes and basic killer instinct. People who bitch about D3 not having stuff like leaning are missing the point entirely as are the people who complain about "bad ai" (same goes for the people who whine about the flashlight).

So when people say: "It's pathetic to compare Doom 3 to a ten-year old game" it's a clear sign that they are not the people Doom 3 was intended for. Doom 3 is a more developed game than Doom 1 because it has a story, NPCs, better sounds and because each weapon uses its own ammo type (this is an improvement, because it means you'll go back and use that pistol you never used in the originals). It's a gameplay improvement because there's a flashlight that serve more of a purpose than those "invisible" flashlights you have in other modern shooters.

If Doom 3 had gone the direction almost every other FPS game developer goes, it would not have been a faithful Doom game and you'd find people like me and Shaviro bitching because we'd find that Id sold out.

Bottom line: Imo we need more old-school shooters.

Back to the topic:

I agree that the game's level design is repetitive. They should've added a helmet pickup (which allows you to breathe outside for a very long time without constantly having to get new air canisters) in addition to the air canisters in certain situations that would allow you to go out and explore the Martian surface longer.
They should have had more underground cavernous tunnels to separate buildings with and they should have made the Hell trip a bit longer.

Having said that, the level design is only repetitive in the colouring of the surfaces. The constant grey walls do end up annoying your eyes in the end, but it didn't bug me the second time I played through, because then I started noticing the details and those are very varied imo.

They should also have placed monsters more cleverly. Towards the end it started getting to even me that monsters always seemed to show up only when you got an item. I would've wanted more wandering monsters and more monsters breaking through walls (this was kinda underused later on imo) NOT when you got an item, but at a completely unexpected time, like, when you're just walking through a seemingly innocent looking hallway that doesn't really serve any other purpose than getting you from point A to point B.

I don't whine about replay value though, because Doom 3 has enough varied weaponry to add enough replay value for me (/hugs his chaingun) - I don't need multiple choices or passageways (I had a habit of always playing Doom 1 the same way - namely the way that seemed the most effective), I just wanna get the satisfaction from seeing those cool monster death animations.

Also, Doom 3 seems to have more secrets than I initially thought - they do add replay value, but personally, I think they're boring. I want hidden doorways that open when you throw a not-so visible switch (I found one such secret, but others have eluded me and they seem unacceptably rare).

The fact that there's no Use key also inhibits the opportunity for them, as well.

Not really, the new GUI interface had some pretty neat potential to them in exactly this area - that's why I'm disappointed that Id didn't seem to put it to better use. They could've made it so that it allowed you to interact with walls in a more advanced way, like:
Face a wall and suddenly, there's a little switch on the wall that's hard to see, but when you move your cursor over it, the weapon lowers and, like when you approach an NPC, a "menu" appears that prompts you to throw the switch - instant hidden doorway.
Or, they could've made it so that a certain computer screen of a type that you normally can't interact with suddenly appears to actually be interactive and you can use it to open a hidden closet.

Sucks that they didn't implement something like that :-(

The architecture is certainly more repetitive than in colour alone. Of course it is varied if you scrutinise it, but bigger variations or architectural set pieces would have been better IMO. For instance, I'll always remember E1M3 for that circle of concrete around the nukeage, MAP24 for it's crazy little wafers of solid ground above deep nukeage pits or E1M7 for the way half the map unravels at the end. There's obviously examples from newer games as well, but I thought I'd keep it doomy.

toxicfluff said:

Of course it is varied if you scrutinise it, but bigger variation or architectural set pieces would have been better IMO.

I agree with this. There are more of those than what you see at first glimpse, though. I certainly found some examples on the second run through.

Whine whine whine whine whine whine bitch complain gripe moan wah mummy.

When will people learn to stop moaning and just enjoy themselves? O_o

BTW Doom didn't start the speedmapping phenomen as someone suggested, it was being done for Quake 1 long before the first Doomworld event :).

Shaviro said:

I disagree. I think Doom3 comes pretty damn close to Doom1.


Who cares?
Oh. And please don't try to tell me Doom1 doesn't get repetitive.

Well, yes doom certainly got repetitive at times, but it was always fun and entertaining.

Speedmapping says a lot about a game

1. For one, people will only build a community around playing through the same maps if theose maps are fun and interesting to see, obviously they cant play excactly the same everytime

2. The game has to be open-ended, there have to be different ways to do things, differetn paths, doom3 has none of these, doom1 and 2 have many.

NiGHTMARE said:

Whine whine whine whine whine whine bitch complain gripe moan wah mummy.

When will people learn to stop moaning and just enjoy themselves? O_o

BTW Doom didn't start the speedmapping phenomen as someone suggested, it was being done for Quake 1 long before the first Doomworld event :).

Oh i had forgotten that, mybad.

anyhow, the point doesnt change, doom3 is basically just an interactive movie, a good one, but not a game. the poster is right about how repetitive it is, see Linguica's post about the doom3 walkthrough

Expressing your opinion is not whining, the author of the post even ADMITTED it was a rant.

and even if it was its even MORE pathetic to be *whining about whining*

Wobbo said:

doom3 has none of these

Really? I'm starting to think you just decided to play the alpha and call it a day.

Black Hand said:

Stopped comparing doom 3 to games that were made ten years ago, that’s a good first step; next step is to not compare doom 3 to modern inferior games. Doom 3 was in production for 4 years, ID could have implemented a bit more, get over it

I'm going to gather by your obvious display of ignorance that you have no fucking clue what Far Cry is...

"If the game is fun, then isn't that all that matters?"

The difference is whether you're paying $60 for 20 hours of gameplay, or $60 for thousands of hours of gameplay. The former is unacceptably low.

dsm said:

So when people say: "It's pathetic to compare Doom 3 to a ten-year old game" it's a clear sign that they are not the people Doom 3 was intended for. Doom 3 is a more developed game than Doom 1 because it has a story, NPCs, better sounds and because each weapon uses its own ammo type (this is an improvement, because it means you'll go back and use that pistol you never used in the originals). It's a gameplay improvement because there's a flashlight that serve more of a purpose than those "invisible" flashlights you have in other modern shooters.:-(

Did you intentionally take my words out of context?

Shaviro was saying "doom 1 got repetitive so its ok for doom 3 to be super repetitive," and I responded with "It's pathetic to compare Doom 3 to a ten-year old technologically defunct game." My point was that it's pathetic to compare Doom 3 to a ten-year old technologically defunct game to excuse doom 3s flaws.

"WOLFENSTIEN HAD NO CIELINGS SO IT’S OK IF DOOM 3 HAS NO CIELINGS!"

And AndrewB "$60 for 20 hours of game play" its barley even "game play," if the game was any more scripted then the computer would decide witch weapon you use at witch points during the game regardless of what ammunition you have. So it’s more like 43 dollars in my case for a 20 hour long trolley ride.

"Bottom line: Imo we need more old-school shooters."
So very true.

Wobbo said:

and even if it was its even MORE pathetic to be *whining about whining*

Oh I'm not whining, I'm just amused by the in-built need certain people have to waste countless hours of their time complaining about things they don't like instead of finding something they do like and doing it :).

BTW I suggest you people find a store that has a decent return policy. I know Game (which I believe is still known as Electronique Boutique in some countries) has a 10 day no-questions-asked guarantee.

Black Hand; why am I not surprised...

Its sad really, I come a few weeks later to find this sorry ass arguing with himself; yet again. Sad.

I think bashing doom3 has not only become an addiction for you blackhand, but your lifetime goal. I foresee thirty years down the line, in some dingy alley-way, a dirty, incoherent bum running after a kid whose only crime was to purchase doom3 that was conveniently located next to his little, shanty bumtown.

doomedout said:

[flame]

He's entitled to his viewpoint. This is NOT a fan forum.

Doomedout, if you don't like what I’m saying then tell me I’m wrong and tell me why I’m wrong, you simply flaming me isn't enough.

Heres an analogy, Flaming is like the sprinkles on an Ice cream sunday, sure its great but you can't eat sprinkles without the ice cream.

"Less taste more filling"

Black Hand said:

Doomedout, if you don't like what I’m saying then tell me I’m wrong and tell me why I’m wrong, you simply flaming me isn't enough.

Heres an analogy, Flaming is like the sprinkles on an Ice cream sunday, sure its great but you can't eat sprinkles without the ice cream.

"Less taste more filling"

Well its like talking to a kid - you take candy away from him and you can't reason with him. You argue for the sake of arguing - I don't have the luxury of time nor the patience of the old members to tolerate your incessant ranting.

Have fun arguing on the internet in hopes of filling the void in your life.

doomedout said:

Well its like talking to a kid - you take candy away from him and you can't reason with him. You argue for the sake of arguing - I don't have the luxury of time nor the patience of the old members to tolerate your incessant ranting.

Have fun arguing on the internet in hopes of filling the void in your life.

Well at least you've put your excuse of "why you don't have to think before expressing yourself publicly" into words.

Your a lost cause.

doomedout said:

Well its like talking to a kid - you take candy away from him and you can't reason with him. You argue for the sake of arguing - I don't have the luxury of time nor the patience of the old members to tolerate your incessant ranting.

Have fun arguing on the internet in hopes of filling the void in your life.

He's not saying "DOOM 3 SUCKS AND SHOULD BE BANNED BECAUSE IT'S SO TERRIBLE" -- THAT would be ranting, trolling, and truly pathetic. He's simply laying out his reasons for disliking the game in a well-structured (although grammatically shaky) manner.

What would the world be like if people didn't have the freedom to complain about, for example, The Matrix sequels and games? Or the movie Catwoman?

I keep seeing the complaints about the scripting in DooM3, but not a mention of it in the other DooM games. Whats the difference? Its gotten to the point that i know almost exactly where ever demon/zombie will be while playing through the original DooM games. Only the wads ive played make it different, and in time, ill learn those too. So whats the big deal with the scripting? To me, its the same thing. When the mods come out, than we'll have something different.

In doom 1 the only truly scripted events would be the traps, these traps include the teleportation’s. That however was the end of it. The way the demons attacked you could be played over in a hundred different ways, you could run around causing confusion and having them in fight, you could run away and pick a different route or you could blast them all back to hell with weapon of your choice.

In doom 3 you have absolutely no choice whatsoever in confrontations. You can not escape from demons or hide from them, you can back track but since most demons are faster then you your not likely to get away and on top of that since the game is pretty much a straight line you’ll still have to confront the demon anyways.

In doom 3 you are forced to fallow one means to an end. The reason why there’s no intermission screen in doom 3 is that because if there were you’d get the same exact score every level. 100 percent kills 94 percent items and N/A secrets.

Even as early as Episode 1 map 2 of doom 1 you had choices of were to go and what order. Just because ultimately you still converge on 1 final point does not mean that the game is “just as linear as doom 3.”

Heh I’ll stop now, I’ve answered your question in access.

My problem with Doom 3 is that it combines the pace of modern FPS (a couple enemies at a time, slow walking speed, an attempt to tell a story which requires thematically sensible levels, etc) with the simplicity of an old school shooter.

This mix, for me, just doesn't work.

Painkiller and Serious Sam are both good examples of games that played similar to the original Doom games, especially Serious Sam. Fast paced, HUGELY varied environments (mostly in SE, though), and level designs that switched between close range and battlefield-esque constantly. Doom 3, on the other hand, feels like one level repeated many times over the course of an entire game. It's one of the reasons the Hell level is so awesome... not just because of the design, but because it's FINALLY something new. And I miss having to fight hordes of enemies.

To me, this is not Doom all prettied up. It's Quake all prettied up. It shares most of the problems that Quake's single player had, but it has such an incredible layer of gloss over it that I have to admit it took me a while to see it.

And obviously, IMO, YMMV, etc, etc...

I'm not really a huge Doom1 player, but I remember how cool the levels were, and how much of a kick my friend and I got out of getting surprised by monsters, and running away back to the start of the level in some cases. I get the impression from some of the levels of Doom3, though, that a lot of the staff were so worried about working up to the technology that they didn't really have the opportunity to just have fun with the levels.

Just about every room is a set-piece for some machinery or scripted event-- something to show off the engine. So, in order to make the most of this, you have to make sure the player stays close to the fixture or event. Which means kind of keeping the player on a fixed, amusment park ride path. You don't have this sort of trouble with Doom1-- the set pieces are the level configurations themselves, their very structure (okay, maybe some creative textures, too, but this was secondary). In Doom1, a boring room was blatently obvious--you didn't have dodads and machines and shadows to distract you from what you were seeing like in Doom3. Level designers had to be creative or the game would just look dumb. With Doom3, you can take a square room, and stuff it with desks and chairs, and suddenly it looks "complicated", even though the complexity has no effect on the gameplay.

I think it would be a cool project to take the level editor from Doom1, and just have it spit out files in Doom3 format. You might have to give up some things like stairs and stuff, but it would be much easier to be creative with level design.

Sure people are perfectly entitled to bitch and whine as much as they like. However, personally I've got much better things to do :).