concerned about number of enemies on screen

Ummh the archvile's attack is far more terrible than his resurrection spell. I find that fire blast far more dangerous and worrying than a few renovated imps.

Actually, I would like to see the Archvile's attack changed a little (but it should still be related, e.g. making fire beneath your feet).
It always baffled me why I didn't take damage before the *boom* sound - I mean I'm getting burned by a small bonfire here and I don't get hurt before some invisible explosion hurls me into the air?

If they actually intend to keep the Arch-Vile in DOOM3, I hope they give him lots more power, like was he a real suacy boss or something.

I hope id reinstates the Arch-Vile as well. However, concerning the number of characters on screen. Even if we have a continuous flow of monsters as Zaldron suggests, which I could live with until 10Ghz machines allow maps with rooms filled to the brim, there is still the problem of dead enemies everywhere. id simply cannot use the dissolve or magically disappearing carcase method. Very important in Doom was the carnage apparent from huge battles with bodies everywhere. When you walk back though an area that damn near got you killed, it should'nt be pristine and empty. I will be surprised if any Doom fan here could settle for disappearing monsters.

I guess we wait...

*Some* few monsters' corpses could dissolve after a brief period of just lying there - as long as most of the monster corpses remains.

The Archvile for example - I wouldn't mind if his corpse turns into hot slag or something.

If they really took the time to create a cool looking animation for the disappearance (corpse boiling in a hellish way or something), then I could bare with it. But there should still be an unlimited corpse option.

But do remember that they want less difference between the static and dynamic objects of the game, I think that's enough indication that corpses will stay.

i was thinking about,resurect-able corpse and unreserectable corpse.the corpse that has been gibbed into pieces cannot be resurected,also the enemy that has higher level than archvile (cyberdemon ,spidermastermind, baron of hell) cannot be resurrected too.good condition corpse and lesser enemy (former human,imp) can be resurected.

Yeah good idea!
It actually makes sense.
Hey, I came to think of something! - The former humans are dead human soldiers (whose corpses haven't been too messed up) "resurrected" by the archvile.

Hm, maybe I have already mentioned that earlier?

Not necessarily by the Arch-vile, but anyway...

Not necessarily by the Arch-vile, but anyway...

What else could resurrect and "zombiefy" the humans in your opinion?

Weed, maybe???

Not necessarily by the Arch-vile, but anyway...

What else could resurrect and "zombiefy" the humans in your opinion?

The Baphomet? Other zombies (just never shown in the game)? Other unknown monsters with similiar skills? The pure evil the monsters bring?

DOOM3 might tell.

The Baphomet? Other zombies (just never shown in the game)? Other unknown monsters with similiar skills? The pure evil the monsters bring?

DOOM3 might tell.

The Baphomet never made former humans (but then agian, there were no corpses nearby). About the "pure evil" thing: If that was what zombiefied them, how come the player/Doomguy doesn't get zombiefied?

I've got another suggestion:
*joke* A big, fat, white-skinned creature, which throws green syringes at the player - when the player "dies" (player health reaches 0) he/she gets transformed into a former human *joke*.

Now where did I get that idea from, hmmm?

What makes you count out things that are not shown in the game? Game developers never get the time to put all they want in it...

What makes you count out things that are not shown in the game? Game developers never get the time to put all they want in it...

I wasn't counting out things that weren't shown, merly commenting on *some* of your suggestions. I'm sorry if I'm being a nuisance.

If they really took the time to create a cool looking animation for the disappearance (corpse boiling in a hellish way or something), then I could bare with it. But there should still be an unlimited corpse option.

Yeah, that could be cool. Some vicious flaming and bubbling goop that slowly boils away in a hideous and disturbing manner :) Or perhaps some other effects such as a portal that opens to hell, hot screaming winds,distorting space-time, sucking though the shattered remains of the demon you just trashed. You could glimpse the burning coals and other demons in the background for a second. Sounds like a potential use of portal tech to me. Anyone ever see 'Event Horizon'? Remember those segments when you see glimpses of that other dark universe of pure evil and chaos?

If id ever reads this board, Carmack is probably giggling to himself right now. 'Yeah, I solved that many entity on screen problem months ago!'

Or perhaps some other effects such as a portal that opens to hell, hot screaming winds,distorting space-time, sucking though the shattered remains of the demon you just trashed. You could glimpse the burning coals and other demons in the background for a second.

That would probably get pretty annoying in the long run if it happened to every monster. But hey, that is an *awesome* idea for something such as a boss!

That would probably get pretty annoying in the long run if it happened to every monster. But hey, that is an *awesome* idea for something such as a boss!

Yes, I think thats right. But still, for a certain class of enemy it could make sense. Imagine instead of a regular boring gate/doorway, suddenly the far end of the room distorts, geometry we swear by every day is no more as straight lines buckle, and sucked to a point, a tear opens to spew forth hell spawn. Well, perhaps its not a particularly original idea, but if done right it could be cool. id probably thinks about these possibilities around the clock. I hope.

Mmmh, Magic Carpet flashback.

This is the first time they can actually make space warps in real-time engines. In fact, you could manually rotate/move every single brush or light in the level, and the engine should keep running fine.

Mmmh, Magic Carpet flashback.

This is the first time they can actually make space warps in real-time engines. In fact, you could manually rotate/move every single brush or light in the level, and the engine should keep running fine.

AHA! SO IT IS A PORTAL ENGINE phew...thanx

(see other post)

ok you have just cleared out a room of about 20 difficult badguys, wiping the sweat off your forhead, almost out of ammo, you sitback and admire the pile of corpses, then you hear the horrifying cry of the archvill as he runs into the room, even as you pump pounds of lead in his ass, hes RESSURECTING more demons like they were christ's twin brothers.

but then you wake up and realize id is only allowing "a few" monsters at a time, so the archville serves litle purpose

Maybe there is a solution, personally I think that the Pain Elementals should be removed or changed and give the lost soul 'ability' to the Arch-Vile. So therefore it's not archie that resurrects but the Lost Soul. So as soon as it see's a corpse it will dive towards it and try and take over and resurrects the new body, but instead of the same monster, it will mutate to something else, with different abilities and strengths or so....one problem however is, is this possible?

It cannot have escaped Carmack's notice that HT&L is about to become more popular. U2 is going to require it and I would not be surprised if Doom 3 did as well.

What would you do with all those polys?

You could do what Legend are doing and make really detailed models. Alternatively, if you wanted to consistently attack the player with a double-digit number of enemies, you could make fairly acceptable 1000 poly (or so) models and let the hardware breeze through it. 20 1000 poly models is 20,000 polys, not hard for a HT&L engine.

Personally I would love it, and it would re-create the feel of DOOM much better than old monsters/weapons, certainly better than fancy technology (which was not present in DOOM. Well, DOOM was quite nifty at the time but there's nothing fancy about the engine now)

This has to be a joke right? You seriously think this? OF course Carmack has heard of HT&L. The models themselves are going to be in the 5K polygon range! Not only that the lighting effects are provided by a 100-150K polygon mesh, or something like that, I'm sure the experts can enlighten you on this. Really man, where HAVE you been, I suggest you look for the Macworld video released almost a year ago. I think there is a link to it on the doomworld main page.

There's no chance we'll see lots of monsters for a very long time. These aren't just polygonal meshes, but a mix between low poly and high poly versions in order to optimize the lighting over small details. Consider it the next step in polygonal characters.

The T&L engine already has enough to do.

Wasn't the Ach-Vile able to make those "Ghost-Imps" ? That would be funny in Doom 3 too....but a little bit too unreal.

That's a bug, and it affected all kinds of monsters. It would be annoying, forcing you to load.

This has to be a joke right? You seriously think this? OF course Carmack has heard of HT&L. The models themselves are going to be in the 5K polygon range!.

I only mentioned HT&L because of the everyone seems to rubbish the idea of putting 20 odd enemies on screen.

Just because there are 5,000 polys on a model doesn't mean there can't be lower poly models. It's something called LOD. You just substitute low poly models for enemies in the distance. Or, substitute low poly models when it's clear that the fps would otherwise fall. It's not hard to code.

But what happens when your model is binded to a more complex one? Is LOD possible? Or should we see some weird errors on the lighting?

And what about long shadows? Is it possible to use LOD and not see some abrupt changes on their shadows?

A typical character is skeletal, so yes it is possible to do piece by piece LOD. I doubt any games do that though. It would waste more time checking distances than it would save on models just sitting on the cut off point.

Internally it should still be treated as a 5000 polymodel. You can do stuff like tracing bullets on a 5000 model only slightly slower than with a 500 poly model.

I see the possibility of long shadows magnifying the differences in the different meshes(hadn't thought of that), but the simple solution to that would be-don't build maps that let you cast long shadows. Most maps are fairly well lit.
It's possible the mapper could tag floors etc so if a shadow was cast on it a specified LOD would be used (low detail would be okay, as long as there is no transition).

I only mentioned HT&L because of the everyone seems to rubbish the idea of putting 20 odd enemies on screen

It's not rubbish-- but you have to rember that, for most cards (even GeForce3) that the rendering will consist of multiple passes-- it's not 20,000 polys, but 60,000 polys per affecting light. If half of those 20 demons are hit by an additional light, you get 90,000 polys. And that's on a GeForce3, and doesn't count the drawing of the shadow volumes...

And you have to also consider the memory bandwidth, too-- most textures are probably going to be about 256X256. They will be using about 6(for GeForce3?) of these per enemy on the screen. That's a huge amount of bandwidth being consumed per enemy on the screen! Modern cards aren't limited by the ability to transform vertices, but by the ability to shove texture information around.

So, maybe in future mods or sequels to Doom3, we could have 20 enemies, but when the game first comes out they'll be writing for the GeForce3 in mind...

1) a poly is a poly. Other games are talking about 50,000+ polycounts, why not Doom3? Carmack is good at writing efficient engines.
2) Memory bandwidth should not skyrocket just because you have lots of polys. You still only need one skin per model.