AI

New engine, creepy sounds & music, storyline, awesome graphics, weapons, monsters, hunting :). Many topics have been raised in this forums. I cannot understand why the AI hadn´t been touched already.

Let´s face it, a game with poor AI becomes boring very soon. After killing 2 or 3 enemies of each type, you found the correct weapon choice, optimal distance, ammo to waste, their reactions toward yours, etc. For example:

the Fiend in Quake 1 : circular strafing.
the Ogre in Quake 1 : Forward to him, then backwards, he´ll try to use the chainsaw but he is out of range. Keep firing.
the guards in Thief1/2 : keep walking backwards
the guys in SoF : Lean

Besides, when you face really hard AIs, those scenes stick in your mind, memories of an very entertaining experience.
Remember your first scripted sequence with Marines in Half-Life?
Altough DooM AI was revolutionary in the 3D games department, the walk-in-zigzag-shooting is over.

DooM3 comes from a greatly enhanced version of Q3A engine, wich contained the bot code. Altought not perfect, its more than enough to start the mainframe of every monster behavior.

iD must realize that a great AI it´s done in 3 steps :

1. Enemy toughness :

take for example DooM 1 & 2. Let´s stick with the Imp. The Imp it´s a fierce combatant, claws, fire, muscles, speed, etc. At least, that´s what the sprite suggests. But, on the other side, you have a guy who runs as fast as a Marine walking, only claws at you if you invite him to, with a really slow fireball in almost every difficulty setting.
Now let´s take Quake 1 Fiend. It was plain dumb, and had no ranged attack, and yet, it was more harder. All thanks to plain hardness. He didn´t cooperate in groups, he didn´t take cover, he just had a lot of HP, great speed, and a mighty leap attack.
The CyberDaemon? on an open space, it was a piece of cake, put a Shambler with that many HP, or a Vore, and you wont be a hell of an opponent.
Forget about those useless attacks. If every enemy in DooM had a shotgun, wich is instantaneous, it would be a lot harder.

2. AI (the real one)

Here comes the usual stuff that everyone wants or promise in a game, but really more uncommon than the expected.

* Path-Finding : whatever it takes to make a pack of Imps chase you in a maze of poor-iluminated corridors.

* Team work : i´m not asking about superb RTS strategies against the player, it´s just that I don´t want enemies get stuck or shot by their comrades. Altough I understand that some creatures could attack another ones because of their behavior, I don´t want that bug-like feature of DooM, let´s make it reasonable in some scripted sequences.

* Weapon response : You´re an Imp, the guy has an pistol. Piece of cake. Now... you´re an Imp, the guy has an rocket launcher and already made two of your friends candidates for a new kind of soup. Let´s run and hide in the shadows, falling over his head looks like a better idea.

* Perception : Not as advanced like Thief 2 had, but enemies should get aware of you in a realistic way. In DooM, they knew exactly your position, even if you attracted them with a gunshot 2 rooms before, and ran to the beggining of the level. I would like to see creatures hunting for you, their shadows lurking on the corners of your view.


3. Behavior

This isn´t easy to explain. But i think everyone here understands what i´m talking about. A marine don´t thinks like a cacodemon, or like an Hell Baron. Every AI code must be customized NOT only to take advantage of every attack the enemy have, but to link their concept with the model.
I think that marines should have little self-care, that Imps are great jumpers and climbers, that Pinkies have troubles to control their mass while attacking, that the Cyberdaemon should try to use his size in a smart way. Why walk slowly throwing missiles? You have a lot of HP, run up to the guy and kick him!
Grab him with your great hand and smash him!

The behavior also defines what the creature does in a neutral or friendly stance. I would like to see the Marines talking to no one, in meaningless screams, shooting everything in their line of sight remotely interesting.


Well, you get the idea...

Damn strait! And think about the graphics on these new games, ex. PS2. Thats how DooM3 will be but better! I can so imagine an imp jump up onto a ledge, and duck n' roll towards you, and pop up! That would be cool. But on the AI side, you HAVE to remeber realistic movement! You want the imp to move like it would in real life, or maybe even shnazier! But with such a fraggen high polycount it will probably have, that should be no porblem, I hope...

As for the AI, the bot code in Quake 3 isn't near up to the speed of Unreal Tournament. Granted, it's pretty good, but it still relies on the PC knowing exactly where you are and what direction you're facing. The Unreal bots track by audible sounds and what comes into their lines of vision, and of course if they get a bullet in the back they turn around and return fire while seeking cover.

Then again, if every damn enemy is flipping around corners and ducking behind the inevitable crates, it'll just get boring after a while. I just tried the botmatch in SOF, and the AI code for that is pretty sad. The enemies do so much zigzagging it's almost impossible to nail the suckers with the .44, and that's my favorite weapon in the game!

Not every enemy is going to be brilliant. Look at dogs. Many pedigree puppies are so inbred they have heart disorders and are so retarded that they can get a running start and forget to jump. I had a purebred beagle, it did that to the concrete stairs on my porch. Thud.

Wouldn't Imps be inbred as Hell? Basically stumbing towards the scent of the freshest living victim and just blindly attacking?

Maybe not all, of course, but right after you find the double barrelled shotgun for the first time there's gotta be a dumbass Imp hanging around for you to point blank so you get a grip on what the toy is capable of.

We have touched on this subject before, too. I can't remember who it was with, but we wanted things like footspeed, accuracy, aggressiveness vs defensiveness, and teamworkability all to be adjustable variables on every enemy in the game. Some Imps could be loners that dodge a whole lot and move fast, while there could also be slow moving crowds of sociable Imps that hang together for safety in numbers, and work together to bring down their target.

And as for the PS2, it's still running in 640 x 240, and every damn screenshot I've seen is JAGGED as hell. So far the DC has better looking games. This will change with experience, we hope. I'm not impressed with how Sony has handled the PS2. If you want a good read, head on over to:
http://www.gamecenter.com
And take a read at GamerX's latest spin, which he totally annihilates the PS2 and how Sony has messed up so far.

Very,insightful, you seem to tap in on alot of issues, that we all would want to see in the lattest doom. But aside from all the good ideas you just mention. I thought ID should also consider the idea of the mobility of speed of the monsters compared to the marine. In old doom/2 you were the fastest in the game,hands down. Once you get in a fierce battle,and you were
losing, the player best option is to simply run away,leaving the monster horde in the dust. While I think this not a bad idea. I think they should have some,not all,but certain monsters be able to run and move every bit as fast as the player. Monsters should
have their basic stalking anime. Then they can quickly switch to
running, or a short distant sprint,reacting to any kind of action
the player would impose. For example,the IMP, since this is considered the lowest of the horde, they should be fastest in mobility. Chasing you down,like a mother fu....! whether their single,pair or a gang 8-12. The BULLPIG DEMON has no projectile attacks, nor that it's very fast. But it should have a short distant sprint. It's my personal opinion that this idea would keep the games,fear level at a new kind of high,where just simply
runnig from a fight won't always save you. You'd have to accually
hide from them,as like getting out their line of sight. running into a room,and shut the door behind you to gain your wits!!

All I want is monsters that dont know where the fuck you are in the level when you just shoot off your friggin pistol. I think though that some weapons should make it easier for the monsters to follow you by its sound, like a constant humming (bfg)? Or just the good old chainsaw. Once you switch to like a shotgun though, they should all just wander around searching for you, not horde toward you in a big glob. Also, how about, to make things interesting, in past games Monsters have now been able to lose body parts, why not you? Get your arm shredded off by an imp an take him out with a shotgun blast from the other, or a leg, and have to limp along the wall or crawl on the ground, or if you get shot in the gut, have you 5% life slowly drain away. Also, how about a trail of blood behind you they can follow? Another neat thing would have certain creatures that could crawl along the celing or walls quietly before leaping down at you. Also, all monsters in past games have not been very hard to detect as being nearby, we need some sneaky monsters, ones your really dont see coming, or are smart enough to hide behind a corner until just the right moment.

Another thing I would like to see is monsters that take advantage of the enviroment or items around them. Like kicking toxic waste in your face when they want to make a quick escape after losing an arm. Or how about a pig demon chewing on that nice new plasma gun you always wanted when your approaching, and go beserk because it wants to keep its newly found prize. I'm sure there are better examples, but you get the idea. Anyway, those are my thoughts

deadnail said:

I totaly disagree with u about the AI in UT!
It is just like in Q3!
About the PS2 I agree the SYSTEM SUCKS!

Now then there's just three things you have to agree with me on.


1. At least UT's bots aren't so fucking irritatingly chatty.

2. While Q3A's bots rely on instant hit weapons over a huge distance, the bots in UT can make some really incredible prediction shots. I was nailed with a rocket in the conveyor level when I was running across the top when one of the suckers down there saw me.

3. What about SoF's bots? I know, it's better than nothing... or is it? :)

1)Agree
2)Agree but that's because the enviroments in UT are MUCH larger
3)Didn't understand what u meant

deadnail said:

Then again, if every damn enemy is flipping around corners and ducking behind the inevitable crates, it'll just get boring after a while

Right, when i mentioned that iD should use their bot code to create DooM3 AI, i was only talking about their capacity of understanding of the map. With a solid and reliable navegation system, you can adapt them to anything you want.
Their "ducking" or "cover" hability are defined by the enemy type, from those plain kamikaze, to the ones who are really hard to screenshot.


About PS2 and the console general stuff, well, this is my opinion : video games are developed on PCs, consoles are nothing more than cheap ways to play them. I would never have one, and considering that my PC can do a LOT more than entertainment, i really don´t seek one.

Malum Archon said:

You would fall in shock if your leg or arm were ripped off, but it could be fun in deathmatch were reality is always distorted.

Dima said:

1)Agree
2)Agree but that's because the enviroments in UT are MUCH larger
3)Didn't understand what u meant

SoF - Soldier of Fortune

Heavily modified Quake 2 engine game
Extrememly violent and realistic
Fun game, great multiplayer (I think so, not many agree with me)
Bot code just added in 1.6 patch
It's a joke, but they're fun to slaughter
'Specially with the full auto 12 gauge slug thrower :)

As for prediction shots, I've played HUGE user maps (like the small PC office where everyone is 1 inch tall) and the bots never made preemptive aiming shots. Even at that distance they usually miss with the railgun. Thanks for the ZOOM button this time, iD! :)

Zaldron said:

Right, when i mentioned that iD should use their bot code to create DooM3 AI, i was only talking about their capacity of understanding of the map. With a solid and reliable navegation system, you can adapt them to anything you want.
Their "ducking" or "cover" hability are defined by the enemy type, from those plain kamikaze, to the ones who are really hard to screenshot.


About PS2 and the console general stuff, well, this is my opinion : video games are developed on PCs, consoles are nothing more than cheap ways to play them. I would never have one, and considering that my PC can do a LOT more than entertainment, i really don´t seek one.

I see now what you intended to describe with the bot code. Good idea.

As for console gaming, I couldn't disagree with you more! The simple fact of the matter is, MOST of the video games made today are released for console systems.

All the big franchises, Mario, Megaman, Resident Evil, and even the Final Fantasy games were all aimed at consoles, very few of them made PC releases. Even then, since they were ports they had high system requirements and didn't look as good.

Chrono Trigger ran on a system with a 5mhz processor. If it were on a PC, it would require, at least, a P90 with 16 bit video for the many, many transparancy effects.

Have you ever played Quake 3 on Dreamcast? It runs better than it does on my P3 450 and it's on a 200 system! You can't argue that they are able to push a closed-box system much further than they can push a PC. After all, PC games need to be compatible and that is very time consuming.

What I would like to see in the PC world: The CCX

Console Computer

Let's see, if it were released right now, here's how I would picture the CC1.
AMD Duron 700 Mhz
128 SDRam
GeForce 2 MX w/ TV-In & Out daughterboard
Onboard sound of KT-133 with added 3D acceleration (EAX, A3D)
6x dvd drive
10/100 networking card
10gig harddrive, with a 'docking bay' so you could change this
6 USB Ports (remove 2 ps2 ports and printer port)

This little box, about the size of a Dreamcast but more cubish, would not come with a monitor. You would use a USB keyboard and mouse, and could plug your monitor right into it. You could also plug it right into your TV if you're new to PC's and don't know what you'd be missing. If you have a USB scanner, printer, and a decent monitor already there's no need to upgrade. If you purchased an external usb cd-burner it would still be functional.

The purpose?

Well, it would cost only about $300. Everything is built into one board, so the drivers would be really small. Games could list right on the system requirements:
Pentium III - 600
128 RAM
Minimum GeForce

CC1 compatible

In two or three years, the CC2 would come out, similarly equipped with stuff that's just a wee bit behind the times.

Keeping your burners and printers and monitors, you could just replace this one unit every couple of years and be basically on track with the PC world!

This would really send PCs into the home consumer market. Even then, this cheap system would also be easy to upgrade and maintain for business purposes.

Am I the only person that would like this?

About the ports, that´s because the only thing they "really" change is the rendering code. They adapt it to OpenGL instructions. But the main architechture of a console is very different than PC one. That´s the reason why functions that are fast in consoles are time consuming in PCs (and viceversa).

Q3 Dreamcast version is toned down, you can´t stuff properly the PC version because DC has only 16 MB RAM. Q3A needs at least 64, and 128 if you want decent load times.

A console computer is a good idea, after all, every major upgrade i made to my computer was simultaneous (video card, processor, motherboard, RAM).