Interesting John Carmack quote

Yep, I think Duke Nukem 3D is the real Doom 2...it has everything Doom 2 should have had. New ways of finding secrets, more immersive levels, more interactivity. It is far superior to Quake 1 and 2. Episode 2 from Duke3D is far beyond everything in either of the Quake games.

HAH, IRONICALLY, people who put Quake on a pedestal are the ones who say "games before graphics"

I can already see Carmack forcing the designers to make D4 Oculus Rift first when he was still at Id. After all, he advocated for some things like

Quake being fully 3d, even when in retrospect early 3D graphics are inferior to quality sprites. As Carmack put it in an interview, it was not the beauty of the models but rather the change of perspective, which is what the Rift is going to do after all these years.

He pushed Doom 3 to have that really advanced lighting engine. Again to the detriment of the game. Now the game was satisfactory but I really feel like this tech affected their overall vision of the actual game.

The megatextures in RAGE also came out before their time. The detailing is amazing but the resolution cost doesn't make up for it.

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That's where I differ. I see Doom 2 as their best game ever. It had all the things Doom didn't have in terms of variety. It helps that there was less than a year between the two games of course. Had 3 years gone by I would agree. The Ultimate Doom (Episode 4) and Final Doom were massive disappointments to me though. Neither added enough to be anything other than really really cheap expansions. Good level design or not. In a time where games evolved a mile a minute, it was disappointing to see such obvious cash grabs.

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Good god, not the "marvelous breaking toilets vs. pointless true 3D" discussion again.

Quake 2 was somewhat closer to Doom 3 than it was to the first Quake game, by the way.

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Well, I don't think we can talk of Doom 2 being a worthy sequel when they took more than 75% of Doom 1 and pasted it in Doom 2.They would NEVER get away with that today. In retrospect I would have liked more and more consistent texture variety, each episode having a different theme with weapons and monsters that offer a twist to the old ones, new ways to find secrets/explore, they could have at least put in a new damned HUD to replace the ugly old one. It is also when the brown craze started. If it was called Doom: Hell on Earth, I would be totally fine with it.

EDIT:To clarify I would have liked Doom 2 to be similar to Demon Eclipse.

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DooM_RO said:

Yep, I think Duke Nukem 3D is the real Doom 2

Besides finding this a blasphemous thing to say, I feel Blood is more that way than DN3D.

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Haven't really played Blood yet...gonna give it a go.

Also, nothing will ever beat Doom 1.

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DooM_RO said:

I can already see Carmack forcing the designers to make D4 Oculus Rift first when he was still at Id. After all, he advocated for some things like.


Yeah me too, but if it isn't a completely different situation now, it will be when they restart the game again in 3 months :)

He pushed Doom 3 to have that really advanced lighting engine. Again to the detriment of the game. Now the game was satisfactory but I really feel like this tech affected their overall vision of the actual game.


Yes. Doom3's engine is like a cage. Even today it's borderline impossible to make a big vista that looks great and is well lit. It does hallways with dramatic lighting really well, but not much else.

The megatextures in RAGE also came out before their time. The detailing is amazing but the resolution cost doesn't make up for it.


I'm not so sure there ever will be a time for megatexture to be honest. They seemed to go in the opposite direction of everybody else. Engine builders today strive for wysiwyg, realtime editing and dynamic worlds. The engine set out to fix what are basically non-issues today. Tiling textures? I haven't noticed them since pre Doom3. Being able to handpaint gravel is fine. Waiting a weekend for it all to compile on a renderfarm is not.

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DooM_RO said:

HAH, IRONICALLY, people who put Quake on a pedestal are the ones who say "games before graphics"

More like "games before bells and whistles", I'd say.

Duke Nukem 3D is a very good game. It wouldn't survive all these years otherwise. Ironically, the same people that tend to overestimate its cosmetic gimmicks are the first to dismiss Quake's innovations as purely graphics-related. Just a little bit hypocritical.

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Da Werecat said:

More like "games before bells and whistles", I'd say.

Duke Nukem 3D is a very good game. It wouldn't survive all these years otherwise. Ironically, the same people that tend to overestimate its cosmetic gimmicks are the first to dismiss Quake's innovations as purely graphics-related.


While I agree that the ability to break a toilet, drink water or shoot a grate doesn't change much on its own, you'll get a different picture if you put it all together. The world of Duke Nukem 3D was alive in a way that we hadn't seen before. In comparison the world of Quake seemed dead and backdropish. Not totally unlike how RAGE was.

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I never could make myself love DN3D, it just wasn't meant for me, the only enjoyment I found out of it was from the Caribbean missionpack.

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Shaviro said:

world

Yep. The world. While it's fairly important, it's not the only thing that counts.

It reminds me of how some players dismiss both Quake and the entire generation of Build games as one-dimensional, because they lack the complexity of System Shock.

Shaviro said:

dead and backdropish

Certainly dead, but in a good way.

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Shaviro said:

Not totally unlike how RAGE was.


At least the guns were good.

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Shaviro said:

While I agree that the ability to break a toilet, drink water or shoot a grate doesn't change much on its own, you'll get a different picture if you put it all together. The world of Duke Nukem 3D was alive in a way that we hadn't seen before. In comparison the world of Quake seemed dead and backdropish. Not totally unlike how RAGE was.


In a way it could be seen as a precursor to Half Life.

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I love the minimalistic aesthetic of Quake, personally. Although I also love the charm and detail of Duke3D. I can agree that the latter took the ball id started rolling with Doom and fleshed out what a 2.5D world could be, whereas id kept chasing the sw33t graphix rabbit and came up with (the (admittedly) wonderful) Quake.

Whoo, mixed metaphors!

Anyway, as for Doom 4, I'm really surprised to see so many people on this forum of all places, hungry for some kind of radical shift in direction for the next game. As for myself, I wouldn't mind a more fleshed out version of Doom 3. Keep the horror aesthetics, awesome Hell levels, and mix in some lessons from Rage (simple crafting, item collection, non-linear mission progression, etc). Maybe even some kind of lunar scooter to get from one phobos base to the next... Okay, maybe not that last bit.

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schwerpunk said:

whereas id kept chasing the sw33t graphix rabbit

Like Doom's technological improvements over Wolfenstein 3D, Quake's improvements over Doom are not just about graphics.

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But the improvements in aesthetics and gameplay are not nearly as big. It's as if Doom was made on the Wolf engine but with better textures.

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DooM_RO said:

It's as if Doom was made on the Wolf engine but with better textures.

Haha, no.

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Da Werecat said:

Like Doom's technological improvements over Wolfenstein 3D, Quake's improvements over Doom are not just about graphics.

Fair enough...

Although a defining characteristic of id is that they don't like to stand still, as far as engines go. Obviously, there's a lot more at play than graphics (so I was wrong above), but they never really seem to 'milk' an engine for all it's worth, like a lot of other devs. Look at what Obsidian has got out of [the modified] Gamebryo. It almost boggles the mind.

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DooM_RO said:

No, like in Daikatana :)

EDIT: Ok, that was a bad joke.

lol no joke I actually started laughing for 5 minutes just because you realized it was a bad joke.

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DooM_RO said:
So what do you think?
[/B]


A yellow bright fire illuminates the darkness, the contours of alien anatomy within.

Dodging archvile fire...

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For myself the core of the doom experience was how quickly the game can flow broken up with just enough exploration to relieve the fatigue that would set in if the pace never slowed down. Really Doom is often a masterwork of pacing with it's go go go frantic moments and quiet little respites.

Doom has a successful formula with the gameplay already established. Doom3 was great in a lot of ways design wise, I think they just slowed it down too much. If you could have moved more quickly and had bigger environments to do it in it would've been perfect. Slowing Doom down bc other Fps have been successful with slower gameplay since makes about as much sense as ford changing the f150 to compete with a Prius while still calling it f150. The market wants both dang it!

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DooM_RO said:

It's not just the bugs, like I've said before, the modern graphics violently clash with the visuals which means 0 immersion.The weapons are cheap and are a far cry from what we see in RAGE. The game also has an aura of stupidity around it because of its stupid voice-overs.

Doom should be a glorious game with high standards not some humble indie fumble that thinks it is "the real deal"


tl;dr: MUH IMMURSHUN

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Wow, lots of hate directed towards good FPS games in this thread. What a shame.

Indeed, I do not envy Id this task of deciphering what Doom is, since even Doom fans can't agree. Some believe Doom is non-stop, high-speed blasting while thousands of monsters swarm the screen. Others find Doom to be suspenseful and scary. I personally see it as a bit of a dungeon crawler without RPG elements. I really can't see Id pleasing everybody with Doom 4.

And whoever said Blood is "the real Doom II," that's not far off. Obviously, it's not exactly the same since it takes place somewhere in the early 20th century, but it really captures that atmosphere of guns, creepy environments and nasty demons (with some dark humor mixed in). I strongly recommend it to any Doom nerd.

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To be honest, I would love to see the guns and crafting of RAGE (Having guns that pack a punch and sound like heavy ordinance rather than conventional firearms and making little spider bots to aid you is badass) mix with the fast gameplay of Doom (Say hello to the heavy speed ordinance machine!) with a hint of the new Wolfenstein's improvised weapons and body damage (seriously hilarious shit when a sledge hammer pings off of a Nazi's head as he does a backflip or when you lop multiple heads off with a fire axe, classic!) and the enemy style of Doom 3 (More specifically the "Bruiser" from RoE, I like the little monitor mouth look he has) with level design from Serious Sam TFE, TSE and BFE (So many interesting and unique levels!) topped off with the vehicles from Quake 4 (Fuckin tanks brah)...

A game like that would suit me just fine under any label, be it Doom or Quake.

(Wow, I got a little too excited there)

EDIT: Oh and throw me in some Duke 3D interactivity mixed in with that Blood humor, that Shadow Warrior main character, Half Life story telling and Painkiller ragdolls and we have ourselves GOTY for sure.

DOUBLE EDIT: Also give me that Halo multiplayer and some "Tom Clancy's: Ghost Recon Future Soldier" weapon customization...

I'm gonna stop now.

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The stuff you mentioned about Wolfenstein 2009 was fantastic. I always loved going into slow-mo, barging into a room with a fire ax and beheading everyone before they could even move. Endless fun. :)

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