Doom Beta announced with pre-order of new Wolfenstein

doomguy93 said:

Considering how mediocre Doom 3's SP was, I'm sure ID Software would at least "attempt" to improve on Doom 4's SP gameplay.


Doom 3's campaign is far better than what we get nowadays. When's the last time you played it? Have you even played it or are you just regurgitating what everyone on the internet says? At least provide reasons why it's so mediocre. I agree, it's not the best but it's certainly not the worst.

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DooM_RO said:

Doom 3's campaign is far better than what we get nowadays. When's the last time you played it? Have you even played it or are you just regurgitating what everyone on the internet says? At least provide reasons why it's so mediocre. I agree, it's not the best but it's certainly not the worst.


Last time I played Doom 3 was maybe 3 months ago. I purchased the BFG edition back in November of 2012. The visuals were nice, matter of fact, I think they were ahead of its time when Doom 3 was first released back in the early 2000s. Some of the new demons were awesome too.

Reasons why I believe Doom 3 was mediocre:

1) The story line was very uninteresting/cliche' of most modern sci-fy space horrors and I found it to be very bland. There were also no supporting characters, it was just you the marine occasionally interacting with frightened UAC engineers/scientists. Doom 3 should of had the player battle along-side with a squad of marines. This would have made the storyline a little better. Call of Duty perfected that aspect of interesting storylines and characters (no I'm not a COD fanboy and I know COD & Doom are totally different genres of FPS).

2) Everything was dark... Like 80% of the maps were almost pitch black. The original Doom maps were dark and well lit and you didn't need a flashlight to explore the levels. Plus, in the original Doom maps you were still able to somewhat see your enemies in dark areas. And why couldn't the flashlight be attached to the player's weapon instead of holding it? I know that was fixed in the BFG edition.

3) There were a few maps with ridiculous bullshit obstacles. Duke Nukem Forever had the same concept and it annoyed the hell out of me. It was frustrating and needless to say, utterly boring. I remember one level (I think it was from one of the Delta Labs sectors[?]) required the player to operate platform lifts to get from point A to point B to point C etc... Searching for keys was MUCH harder than the original Doom levels. And sometimes you had to find power-cells to activate powerless areas.

4) The gameplay became way too repetitive, especially when fighting zombies. Sometimes it was enjoyable, but at times it was just way too predictable.

5) Lack of music. There was literally no music in the levels. Just ambient sounds. No music = more boring, enough said about that.

There is probably more to the list of why Doom 3 was mediocre, but I can't think of anymore at the moment. Did I think it was terrible? The answer is NO. Do I think it could have been improved? My answer to that is YES. There should have been more of a focus on intense battles between you and demons. That was what made the original Doom good. Have you ever checked out the Classic Doom 3 mod? That is an example of how Doom 3's gameplay should have been.



And just for the record, I beat the Doom 3 campaign. It took me a few on and off months playing it. I'm currently playing the Resurrection Of Evil missions which are OK, but still not spectacular.

I'm also being completely honest about my review of Doom 3. I might not be all that thorough, but everything I said was pretty much the problems Doom 3 had in a nutshell. I would personally rate the game 6/10 and that is a fair rating in my opinion given the fact that Doom 3 had a lot of notable flaws. I did enjoy playing the Hell levels from Doom 3. The action was fairly solid and it was a lot better than the ones from the UAC laboratories.

I don't think ID Software is in a state of total turmoil. I was fairly pleased with ID Software's release of RAGE. I found that game to be much better and more fun than Doom 3. My rating of RAGE is around an 8/10. Unfortunately, a lot of the original developers from ID who made the first/second Doom are no longer with the company. Basically, in my opinion, the newer guys probably don't have a good insight of what makes a good Doom game. They focus on a theme of a spooky 'haunted house' type of gameplay and they over emphasize graphics/textures rather than having intense battles with lots of demons.

This is a bold statement I am going to make.... A good majority of Doomers from Doomworld who make custom wads could have easily made a better Doom 3 game than the crew who made it at ID Software.

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Fucking hell. Seeing a new Doom game is getting closer. I'm actually getting scared. Please nu Doom, please be about how a big fucking gun with big meaty juicy sound makes numerous big monsters lose numerous body parts and meat and juices. And stretched dismembered faces on brain-walls.

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The game needs to have balls, in all respects. If they copy COD, not only will the game be weaker as whole but it will also show that Id is not confident in their skills. People are supposed to follow THEM, not the other way around.

There should also be no compromise made either in level design, level of gore etc.

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Yes and even if the new Wolfenstein looks good, I wish the shooting and combat will be alot more brutal for Doom. Honestly judging from the gameplay videos the combat doesn't have much balls.

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doomguy93 said:

Doom 3 should of had the player battle along-side with a squad of marines. This would have made the storyline a little better.


What? This makes no sense. You might as well say that the storyline would be improved by having a armor-mounted flashlight.

2) Everything was dark... Like 80% of the maps were almost pitch black.


No. Dark, yes. Too dark, yes. Pitch black? no. 80%? Come on.

3) There were a few maps with ridiculous bullshit obstacles. Duke Nukem Forever had the same concept and it annoyed the hell out of me. It was frustrating and needless to say, utterly boring. I remember one level (I think it was from one of the Delta Labs sectors[?]) required the player to operate platform lifts to get from point A to point B to point C etc... Searching for keys was MUCH harder than the original Doom levels. And sometimes you had to find power-cells to activate powerless areas.


What are you getting at? Puzzles should be reduced to key-hunting?

Have you ever checked out the Classic Doom 3 mod? That is an example of how Doom 3's gameplay should have been.


The Classic Doom3 mod is awful in every aspect. The level design is lazy and uninspired. The visuals are worse than that of the original Doom, the action is a misunderstood, poorly implemented copy of the original showcasing how out of touch they were with the engine they were working with. Linking to a haphazardly thrown together, completely uninspired project from newbie modmakers as an example of how a triple A game for another age should be is just ill-informed at best. Id would have been out of business had Doom3 been like that.

Doom3 has plenty of flaws and having followed it for 4 years and worked with it for 10 I'm intimately acquainted with most - if not all - of them. You can fault Doom3 for storyline, puzzles, darkness and general gameplay, but the reasoning and suggestions provided are ridiculous.

This is a bold statement I am going to make.... A good majority of Doomers from Doomworld who make custom wads could have easily made a better Doom 3 game than the crew who made it at ID Software.


The extreme majority of those people wouldn't even know where to begin.

DooM_RO said:As for your bold statement, I agree with that too, the Phobos team are putting the Id guys to shame...but they have been working on it for almost 10 years, Id simply doesn't have that kind of time.


I definitely appreciate the nice words, but it's not really a fair thing to say towards them OR us. There are plenty of reasons as to why it is taking so long, but mainly it boils down to the fact that we are 3 people doing this in our spare time. Id was 20-30 developers working full time. We can make better looking stuff today, but much of that comes from better hardware. The only thing I can fault id for in regards of level design is that they weren't imaginative enough with it all-together.

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I agree, Classic Doom 3 wasn't very good. The maps visually didn't look the part, and the gameplay felt really bad. Doom 3's gameplay mechanics may be rather different than Classic Doom's, but they still feel more "Doom" to me than Classic Doom 3's haphazard attempt at straight up copying the old scenarios into the new engine. The movement started and stopped much more quickly, and the AI was far more aggressive and used pathfinding. Without further tweaking, the old scenarios do not lend themselves well to this.

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DooM_RO said:

Doom 3's campaign is far better than what we get nowadays. When's the last time you played it? Have you even played it or are you just regurgitating what everyone on the internet says? At least provide reasons why it's so mediocre. I agree, it's not the best but it's certainly not the worst.


The action in Doom 3 was just boring. It wasn't nearly as visceral, hard hitting, and adrenaline pumping as, for example, Brutal Doom or even the original Doom. The weapons felt weak and sounded weak. Same with the explosions. I felt absolutely no satisfaction at all when I killed the monsters because all they did was disintegrate into nothing leaving no corpse behind. The gore was terrible. The movement of the player was slow. The monsters were slow. Basically the action was just dull.

For me, Doom is all about visceral, intense action. The weapons need to sound powerful and feel powerful. The explosions have to be loud and make debris and gore fly all over the place. The monsters have to be fast and ferocious. The player also has to be able to move fast. If the action in this new Doom is like the action in Doom 3, then forget it.

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I agree, it wasn't very good but mechanics wise, it was at least very similar to the original because you could carry all weapons, pick health kits, find secrets. The problem was that it wasn't very well executed.

@Shaviro

I think I understand what you're saying about the hardware. The maps we are making today for classic Doom would not even start on 486s.

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@Shaviro, Alright, maybe it was a little ridiculous that I said "80% of the maps were almost pitch black" but the maps were way too dark.

No puzzels or obstacles in Doom games are acceptable, EVER. That was a huge mistake on ID's part there. I highly doubt John Romero would have approved of that.

I agree that the Classic Doom 3 mod was flawed too especially with the use of textures. But I did enjoy the gameplay, even though it was a remake of the original Doom layouts. Matter of fact, I liked it a lot more than Doom 3's campaigns.

You wouldn't think fighting alongside fellow marines would have made the gameplay/storyline better and more interesting? Idk, you are entitled to your opinion on that.

@doom_is_great, I agree with your statements. The level of satisfaction I got from gunning down enemies from the original Doom was not nearly the same when playing Doom 3. If Doom 4 is going to mimic Doom 3's gameplay, then I'm not even going to waste my money purchasing it.

@DooM_RO, Idk, I think the lack of music was a mistake in Doom 3. I personally am not all that into ambient sounds, but there could have been I good mix of some levels with music and others with ambient sounds. That would have been better in my opinion.

I would not rate Doom 3 anything higher than a 6/10 and I believe that 7/10 is a bit too generous. 8.5/10 is OVERLY generous lol

Honestly, now that I beat Doom 3's campaign, I would never look to playing it over again. I usually play campaigns multiple times If I really enjoyed the game. If Doom 4 looks like an improvement from Doom 3, than maybe I'll look to playing it. :)

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doomguy93 said:

@Shaviro, Alright, maybe it was a little ridiculous that I said "80% of the maps were almost pitch black" but the maps were way too dark.


I can agree with that. It's not that I don't appreciate understanding through exaggeration, but Doom3 has a reputation of being way more dark than it really is.

No puzzels or obstacles in Doom games are acceptable, EVER.


What do you propose takes the place of puzzles then? You do realize that Doom 1, and especially, Doom 2 were filled with environmental puzzles, right? Those ultimatums on behalf of Doom games will only serve to disappoint you. If you think Doom/2 is the perfect game and basically is what Doom should be, I urge you do stop following the new Doom. The world is not going to stand still just because you want to freeze time. I don't mean it an overly negative fashion. Whatever you want from a Doom game is your business and your fair opinion, but it's not going to sell.

I agree that the Classic Doom 3 mod was flawed too especially with the use of textures. But I did enjoy the gameplay, even though it was a remake of the original Doom layouts. Matter of fact, I liked it a lot more than Doom 3's campaigns.


Fair enough that it's your opinion, but you're cutting it a whole lot of slack on the sole reason that it was made by modders and not id software. Seriously, it would have put them out of business or at least close to.

You wouldn't think fighting alongside fellow marines would have made the gameplay/storyline better and more interesting? Idk, you are entitled to your opinion on that.


And you yours, but I have a hard time seeing how it would automatically make any worthwhile changes to the story. It's more of a game mechanic than a story mechanic.

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Shaviro said:

What do you propose takes the place of puzzles then? You do realize that Doom 1, and especially, Doom 2 were filled with environmental puzzles, right? Those ultimatums on behalf of Doom games will only serve to disappoint you. If you think Doom/2 is the perfect game and basically is what Doom should be, I urge you do stop following the new Doom. The world is not going to stand still just because you want to freeze time. I don't mean it an overly negative fashion. Whatever you want from a Doom game is your business and your fair opinion, but it's not going to sell.


By puzzles, I am referring to something like this:



This is just an example of something I did not like from Doom 3. The original Doom had situations where you had to find a switch to activate a lift or bridge to walk across a damaging slime, which was fine and dandy. There were other instances from Doom 3 that had pointless obstacles/puzzles that I can't remember which levels they were from (because I haven't played it in a while).

I'm not trying to freeze time, I'm just stating that Doom 3 deviated too far away from the aspects of its original gameplay. There is nothing wrong with adding new things to a drawing board, but change doesn't always guarantee a better product. I believe it will be a kiss of death for Doom 4 if it has similar gameplay aspects from Doom 3 (mostly the annoying/boring puzzles).

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So the puzzle is set up badly due to less-than-stellar controls and probably lack of testing (getting squished too easily). What else is wrong with it? The idea is great. You have a door that is damaged and you can't get through. What do you propose in its place? Nothing? A button that opens the door? Doom2 had plenty of stuff that basically translates to this.

You say you don't want to freeze time, but do you have any suggestions for how you would make the original formula hold up today? (or even in 2004).

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Shaviro said:

And you yours, but I have a hard time seeing how it would automatically make any worthwhile changes to the story. It's more of a game mechanic than a story mechanic.


Going back to my statement about Call Of Duty, the developers knew how to make solid characters that battled alongside with you. It goes hand in hand with a good storyline because you actually connected with them, the same way you would connect to a protagonist from a movie. And speaking of movies and video games; video games have changed a lot throughout the years. They have moved away from arcade styled gameplay to a cinematic approach. Doom 3 was released during the time video games made this transition, so if ID Software really wanted to keep up with the times they should have made Doom 3 with a better story along with supporting characters. It is essentially a game mechanic as well as a storyline mechanic. I found whatever characters (I don't even remember any of there names) in Doom 3 to be typical cardboard cutouts of cheesy quasi-emotionless filler characters. Especially the evil guy who planned the rise of evil. The lack of character depth was a big problem in the game.

Watch this video showing the deaths of main characters and how emotional it is. It supports my stance regarding the cinematic gameplay aspect. I never experienced any sort of emotional attachment to characters in Doom 3, even the ones who got killed.

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Shaviro said:

So the puzzle is set up badly due to less-than-stellar controls and probably lack of testing (getting squished too easily). What else is wrong with it? The idea is great. You have a door that is damaged and you can't get through. What do you propose in its place? Nothing? A button that opens the door? Doom2 had plenty of stuff that basically translates to this.

You say you don't want to freeze time, but do you have any suggestions for how you would make the original formula hold up today? (or even in 2004).


I would recommend that games should keep 'time consuming' puzzles to a bare minimum. It took me a while to figure out how to solve that puzzle from the video I posted. There was another level that had platforms on a monorail[?] that was even worse to figure out. The Doom 3 trailer gave us the impression that the action was intense and almost nonstop. In reality, it wasn't all like that. You spent more time getting lost and figuring out how to activate switches. Speaking of switches, the original Doom's switch textures were easy to spot. Some of the switches in Doom 3 were from computer monitors and often I found myself checking EVERY single computer to make sure it had some type of functionality. That was another mistake on ID's part. To hold up the original formula for modern use, I would make switches easy to identify.

The levels should be easy to navigate. The majority of time I played Doom 3, I felt lost and confused. Also, the disappearing corpses was a terrible idea. The dead body sprites from Doom 1 and Doom 2 was an advantage because it helped you remember where you have been, thus easier to navigate and not get lost as easily.

Also, I make custom Doom maps myself (mostly for Deathmatch) and I've analyzed the layout mechanics and noticed something that was different from the old Doom games and with Doom 3. For one thing, Doom 1 and 2 had linedefs that players walked over which did things such as activating lifts in discrete areas to secret areas. E1M3 had that concept that lead a player to a secret area/exit to a secret level. There was a switch that activated a bridge to rise from a nuclear pit. I don't recall Doom 3 having much of that aspect from E1M3, but it was a neat concept in my opinion. Even though it isn't that imperative, I would definitely look to revive that in the upcoming Doom 4.

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Boy, if you thought Doom 3 was confusing or had hard puzzles, you should never play Doom 64.

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Megamur said:

Boy, if you thought Doom 3 was confusing or had hard puzzles, you should never play Doom 64.


I have that version too... and It wasn't all that great.

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Megamur said:

Boy, if you thought Doom 3 was confusing or had hard puzzles, you should never play Doom 64.


What? Doom 64 was more easier than Doom 3 lol

Maybe it's only me since i played it before doom 3.

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About your story post, I haven't played CoD or had a chance to watch the video, but for argument's sake I'll assume that it's well done. That takes a fuckload of work. It's not just a matter of adding NPCs that fight monsters. It's part of the process from start to finish. It won't magically improve the storyline just because they're there, you have to shape the game (and story) to allow it from the ground up in order to take advantage of the possibilities this creates. I'm not categorically against doing that at all, but I'm puzzled by how you think the reasonably tame puzzles of Doom3 are unacceptable changes to the Doom "formula" while turning it into a tactical team shooter is not. Not saying that could NOT be good, but one is a negligible attempt at modernizing a crucial feature from the original game where the other is almost a complete makeover of the game's DNA.

doomguy93 said:

I would recommend that games should keep 'time consuming' puzzles to a bare minimum. It took me a while to figure out how to solve that puzzle from the video I posted. There was another level that had platforms on a monorail[?] that was even worse to figure out. The Doom 3 trailer gave us the impression that the action was intense and almost nonstop. In reality, it wasn't all like that. You spent more time getting lost and figuring out how to activate switches. Speaking of switches, the original Doom's switch textures were easy to spot. Some of the switches in Doom 3 were from computer monitors and often I found myself checking EVERY single computer to make sure it had some type of functionality. That was another mistake on ID's part. To hold up the original formula for modern use, I would make switches easy to identify.


But there has to be SOMETHING to occupy the player. Non-stop action would be a tremendously bad idea for a modern game that's supposed to immerse you into this game world. If you reduced all the player does to running around shooting at enemies, you also reduce the level design to a mere backdrop - taking everything clever out of it that isn't directly related to the action. What you describe about getting lost and looking for switches applies double for Doom2. A big part of that game was trying to "figure out" the level and look for switches (or try to figure out what they did). If you make the switches stand out too much, you'll lose a small part of the credibility of your game world. Getting lost in a level can greatly increase the depth of those locations and help you remember more from the game. It's important to have changes of pace to properly articulate and punctuate the different aspects of the story and world you want to convey. Contrast is key.

The levels should be easy to navigate. The majority of time I played Doom 3, I felt lost and confused. Also, the disappearing corpses was a terrible idea. The dead body sprites from Doom 1 and Doom 2 was an advantage because it helped you remember where you have been, thus easier to navigate and not get lost as easily.


It wasn't an idea for something they thought would be cool. It was an absolute necessity for the game at the time. First of all to save precious cycles and second to cover up an array of bugs in the physics engine. We actually disabled the burnaway for Phobos to begin with. We then reenabled it, but put the burnaway to be half a minute or so. Now it's right back to almost instant burnaway. The other options just weren't viable.

Also, I make custom Doom maps myself (mostly for Deathmatch) and I've analyzed the layout mechanics and noticed something that was different from the old Doom games and with Doom 3. For one thing, Doom 1 and 2 had linedefs that players walked over which did things such as activating lifts in discrete areas to secret areas. E1M3 had that concept that lead a player to a secret area/exit to a secret level. There was a switch that activated a bridge to rise from a nuclear pit. I don't recall Doom 3 having much of that aspect from E1M3, but it was a neat concept in my opinion. Even though it isn't that imperative, I would definitely look to revive that in the upcoming Doom 4.


Doom3 has a few secrets that are activated by different discrete measures.

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Mayhem666 said:

What? Doom 64 was more easier than Doom 3 lol


Doom 64 had far more complex puzzles and level layouts compared to the rather linear Doom 3.

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I liked Doom 3's characters. Betruger was B-movie cheese. Swann was a fairly stern and hard assed lawyer who more or less said "Fuck you" to the demons and kept on his way (The novels turned him into a bit of a spineless wimp, however). Campbell, while a bit generic, had some good one liners from an 80s or 90s action flick. And Sarge, eh, well okay, he was sorta dull.

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Two biggest turn offs for me in Doom3 was:

1) the fact that the demons are hellish creatures/spirits that disintegrate on death are found experimented in science labs

2) Betruger (which was a really shitty character btw) is some kind of mystical wizard that creates demon warriors from UAC guards/marines

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@Shaviro, honestly too many puzzles or obstacles can be a turn off for gamers (at least for me). Duke Nukem Forever is an example that went way overboard with that concept. I did not even beat the game because it was so bad.

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LANEGRACABRA said:

2) Betruger (which was a really shitty character btw) is some kind of mystical wizard that creates demon warriors from UAC guards/marines


Fuck you Betruger was fabulous.

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Shaviro said:

It wasn't an idea for something they thought would be cool. It was an absolute necessity for the game at the time. First of all to save precious cycles and second to cover up an array of bugs in the physics engine. We actually disabled the burnaway for Phobos to begin with. We then reenabled it, but put the burnaway to be half a minute or so. Now it's right back to almost instant burnaway. The other options just weren't viable.


Hmm. Well that's a shame. One of the things that I loved about Doom was the array corpses that littered the ground after a big fire fight. Hopefully the physics engine in the new Doom will be designed well enough to where we can have tons of corpses and body parts littering the ground just in Classic Doom.

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Am I the only one, who's bothered because of "4" removal from game's name? Or there's nothing to be worried about?

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The reason I am bothered is that... nowadays it's very common to give games one and the same name (even if sometimes the developer team is different).
Take for example Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit/Most Wanted. How to differentiate between them? Adding release date? Or what?

Something tells me that it might be more than meets the eye. If Todd Hollenshead, who was back then at id, stated that "it's not a sequel to Doom 3, but it's not a reboot either" - how to understand his words now, if there is no "4"?

...although this might be just me worrying too much about details...

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