Doom Grid Snap

Do Doom maps have to snap to a grid of 8? I ask because DoomCAD does not allow you to make vertices off the 8-grid, even with snap turned off, and it gives you a warning if you set floor or ciling heights to a non-multiple of 8. But I have seen many maps which do not look like the snap to the 8-grid (the face of the Icon of Sin for example).

DoomCAD says:
Note that if not grid is active, a minimal Grid setting of 8 units is always active (all Doom levels from id snap to an 8x8 grid, it is unknown if a level will display correctly which does not conform to this grid snap)

So is this true or what?

beezee88 said:

So is this true or what?

It's not true.

beezee88 said:

So is this true or what?

No. You can use any grid size you want. At least with source ports, dunno about doom.exe

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gah I fail it
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boris said:

No. You can use any grid size you want. At least with source ports, dunno about doom.exe

[edit]
gah I fail it
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ya you do. even doom.exe can handle increments of 1 pixel, instead of 8. Beezee88, your editor is feeble and weak!

Use3D said:

Beezee88, your editor is feeble and weak!

LOL. Yeah, I suppose that is quite feeble, plus there is a crappy node builder included, but I feel comfortable editing with it, which I feel is quite important.

If your creativity is limited by your tools it might be time to reconsider.

I'd suggest another editor if it's hampering you that bad. WA has a minimum grid size of 2x2 units, but you can turn grid snapping off if you want to use 1 unit lines etc.

I used to use Dmapedit and I know it had an option to turn off gridsnap, maybe yours has the same.

Deth.. wont complain about anything unless you ask it to, and then it's only real bugs. and it's really fast to edit edit with too (once you got used to it that is.)

Doomcad is what i started with in early days. I wasnt keen of having to plot vertices first, then enter sector mode and try to link them all up again. Sometime you forget the shape of the room you make due to large number of dots. There is no undo, and very sloppy delete process. You make a mistake, you have to re-open your level.

The dude probly doesnt want to use a dos editor. There is deepsea, its windows! Thats my reason for sticking with doomcad, hatred of dos editors. (dos is almost redundant on my machine :@ )
Heh, btw , do you like that cute little quirk where doomcads' node builder will eventually DESTROY your entire fuckin hard work the more you build with it??!

Why not get a new editor?

Yeah, I've seen plenty of levels with lines that are only 1 in length. This is usually for detail purposes.

Personally, I don't go below 2, and I RARELY go to 2. I usually keep it at 4. I don't go to 1 because I always snap things to the grid (DeePsea goes from 2-512 I think. It might be 1024), and I'd have to turn it off to do 1. Besides, nothing I do could ever call for a 1-length LineDef. Although, look at Torment and Torture 2 to see some 1-length LineDefs in use.

Wad author is the best editor ever :)
Imo it is.... I can't make maps with other editors but this great editor... :)

Nanami said:

(DeePsea goes from 2-512 I think. It might be 1024), and I'd have to turn it off to do 1.

You can customize the range: F5- MAP - from 1 to 4096. Then if you want an "odd" size, like 3, you can also do that - press Ctrl+Shift+G and type in any size you like. This is mainly if you are doing a scaled conversion.

Normally you do what you said though, just turn the snap-to-grid off (/ key).

I find myself doing alot (mostly even) of grid 1 editing.I never seem to be able to stay on the grid.

I very rarely go below grid 4. And that is usually just to center grid 8 stuff.

I start at 16 and work my way down to 1. But I build the basics of a room with 32.

I use the 64, 32 and 16 unit grids most of the time. In extreme cases, I use the 8 unit grid. I only go lower than that to adjust rotated objects or implement special stuff.

Use3D said:

ya you do. even doom.exe can handle increments of 1 pixel, instead of 8. Beezee88, your editor is feeble and weak!

The "I fail it" related to the fact that deep posted faster than I did.

I usually *try* to keep my grid snap no lower than 8 units. Most of the time it is not a problem if you go lower say to 4 or 2. Really short lines can sometimes cause problems with node building, especially if they are on angles other than 90 degrees. You may occasionally see "slivers" when viewing some areas from certain angles. This doesn't happen all that much though as nodebuilders nowadays are pretty good and can handle most anything you throw at them.

actually, come to think of it, DoomCAD isn't THAT good...

*Crappy delete method
*8 min grid size (though admittedly I hardly ever use anything smaller than 8)
*limited linedef editing
*annoying sector building
*can't view textures within the program

and probably loads of other 'issues'...

I did use WinDEU for a while, and it was good, but I stopped using it and I can't remember why. From what I've heard, WadAuthor sounds like the best editor around. Am I wrong?

I won't say you're wrong, but I, personally like Deepsea better.
As for the snap grid thing, I'm usually at 64, then 32, all the way down to 8, sometimes below that.

I frequently insert linedefs (or modify linedef attributes) so that they are not snapped to even a 2*2 grid. I find this useful in, for example, creating difficult-to-find secret areas. There are other applications as well, such as creating a painting or wall hanging (e.g., PANBLUE) above a doorway, when it's not possible to have the right-sized sector above the door. The closer the linedef is to the wall, the more believable the wall hanging will look. Having it 1 unit close to the wall achieves this effect.

Another thing to point out about using a 1*1 "grid". A couple of years ago I was working on a map with triangular shaped areas, which made it impossible to keep a linedef "perfectly" straight after splitting it more than once and moving vertices around. Jack pointed out that for all practical purposes, the linedef will appear straight in-game, even if the line does not appear perfectly straight in the editor. I've found this to be true, so I no longer obsess about the alignment of oddly-angled linedefs.

Fredrik said:

I use the 64, 32 and 16 unit grids most of the time. In extreme cases, I use the 8 unit grid. I only go lower than that to adjust rotated objects or implement special stuff.

Yeah, the same sizes as I use often. 8 is great for placing details, etc...

beezee88 said:

actually, come to think of it, DoomCAD isn't THAT good...

*Crappy delete method
*8 min grid size (though admittedly I hardly ever use anything smaller than 8)
*limited linedef editing
*annoying sector building
*can't view textures within the program

and probably loads of other 'issues'...

I did use WinDEU for a while, and it was good, but I stopped using it and I can't remember why. From what I've heard, WadAuthor sounds like the best editor around. Am I wrong?

Wad author is good... I love it. It have all I need, or else I just wintex. You should try it... :)

Torn said:

Wad author is good... I love it. It have all I need, or else I just wintex. You should try it... :)

DeePsea is good... I love it. It have all I need, it even replaces Wintex and other lump management tools. You should try it... :)

I use them both, as Wintex is better at some things and DeePsea at others.

On topic, I base everything on the 64x64 grid and go to a smaller one when needed. (sometimes I go off the grid to make lines of 1, 3, 5 etc. units)

I just want to throw in my support with those who recommend DETH. I haven't found much that I can't do with that editory. I can set the grid all the way to 0 (off) or as low as 1 which is good when you're doing really tight work with intricate detail and of course you can set the grid to 64 when you're making transporters so that the floor and ceiling fit properly.
It also has prefab items like octagons, squares, etc... - allows you to quickly and easily flip linedefs or change their attributes, clone sectors and much, much more. And, if you get used to it - it is the base for Zeth which is the Zdoom editor so you have a head start on that.
Wanna see what you can do with a GOOD editor? Check out my new map - Bloodworks at http://www.doomwadstation.suhost.com/descent/bloodworks.html
I did ALL the mapping with DETH, used the shareware version of Deepsea for replacing the music and sound lumps and Wintex for replacing, changing textures. One editor is NOT enough. lol

FYI a grid of 0 and a grid of 1 are exactly the same - neither does any kind of "grid" snapping.

Reason: All coordinates have to be an integral integer and 1 is as low as it gets.

The only reason for a grid of "1", is just visual reference you can see. Otherwise no difference between the 2 as to where stuff ends up on the map - it's just where one drags it. IOW 0 is just an internal "visual grid" setting of not showing any grid lines.

Try it, you'll see that you can never get "inside" of a 1-unit grid.

you're right. I knew that but didn't state my case properly