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Ezxariarch

What a good level/map needs?

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Hello, I'm new at making levels and just uploaded a 6 map preview of a 18 (or so) megawad into /idgames. These are my first 6 serious levels that actually has a point and follows through with each other. I was testing it and i noticed that (for me, atleast) these were not too hard. I've been playig doom 2 for a long long time, so i'm not sure how hard to make my levels to actually make it hard without being a slaughter like Alien Vendetta.

where I'm getting at is that, What does a good doom level need?

1) Does each level have to have enough ammo for you to kill every monster (and open gun activated secrets)? (if you had nothing but you pistol at the start).

2) Is having 10 secret areas too much for a relatively large map? (about the size twice the size of map 20 in doom 2)

3) Does having more than 1 cyberdemon or Spidermasterminds in 1 room make the map stupid? (some people thinks so)

4) Does levels have to be dark? Like those of Alien Vendetta to get a good "DOOM" feel out of it? (Most of mine are...pretty bright)

5) Is there such a thing as too many traps (teleporters that makes you telefrag barrels and go boom, Evilution telefrag trap in map 30, crushers, lava pits appearing outta nowhere, teleporting monsters, etc). A lot of my levels have quite a few traps (though experience players can usually tell), does it make it annoying for newer players?

6) What kinda ammo should be used most? Most of my levels are Shotgun/shell oriented since it's pretty much the only thing I use besides the BFG. Does it make it bad there there are more shells then everything else?

My wad file is called Demon Eclipse (no idea for a better name yet) and should be in the Idgames folder called DE-Ep1.zip. Be cool if someone that has played it first before giving me any tips. But any tips at all is much appreciated. Cuz i'm not sure how hard to make my map 7 and up, since map 6 already had 4 Demon Spawners in the same room along with 4 Spider masterminds (it was a boss).

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I don't know if i'll be answering all of that, but here are some thoughts that popped into my mind when reading:

About ammo placement, i think it's up to you. As long as you don't over do it. If you give players only just enough ammo, it's harder for them to complete the level, and if you give them too much it'll be easy and they'll be bored.

I don't know if you can have too many traps. Traps are ok I think, just make sure the player is rewarded for completing a certain thing. Getting through a stressful trap only makes you more stressed if there's no reward. I can be anything from extra ammo to a whole new weapon though.

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1. Don´t let players fist the demons to death!
Put enough ammon in the map, that at least you (as the creator) are able to kill every monster

2.Sure not!
I like hunting for secrets and I guess most players do as well.
Just make sure you can beat the map without finding one of them.

3.It depends how you place them!
If you don´t make the area to cramped and provide enough cover, ammo and health nobody should whine about more than one Cybie and a Mastermind ;)

4.Levels don´t have to be dark, to be fun!
Though you should try variations of the light level, to make the map look more interesting!
You could have a dark creppy corridor, that ends up in an very bright outside area for example.

5.I´m not a big fan of traps
Especially this stereotype "grab-key monster-teleport-in" traps are very annoying, if used to much!
There´s nothing against some well placed traps though.

6.Personally I place more shotgun ammo than everything else, too!
I think most players prefer the shotguns anyway...
As long as there is a bit ammo for the other guns as well, it shouldn´t be a problem.

Note:
This is just my personal opinion, not the universal truth ;)

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deathbringer said:

*Insert wacky inevitable Impse joke here*


LMFAO

3) Cyberdemons no, spider masterminds yes, since it's nearly impossible to not get them to fight each other. Monster infights can be great fun, but considering how much space a spider mastermind uses, you'd be best having either one in a room or none. Having several of the second-strongest monsters in the game invetiably fighting each other totally removes the point of them being there.

4) Levels don't HAVE to be dark. Some people like dark levels but some people like bright levels, try to get a good mixture and possibly even darken/brighten the level depending on how far you are, like in KS map08.

6) Shells IMO, but cells and rockets in HR-styled maps.

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Alright, thanks for the help guys. I think i'm getting a pretty good idea for my next 5 maps. (I think it's 5 before the next intermission text after level 6). The second intermission text is after level 11, yes? o_o

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Ezxariarch said:

Alright, thanks for the help guys. I think i'm getting a pretty good idea for my next 5 maps. (I think it's 5 before the next intermission text after level 6). The second intermission text is after level 11, yes? o_o


Yes,
but you might also use the mapinfo lump, to get your own intermission text after the map you prefer.

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Vader said:

but you might also use the mapinfo lump, to get your own intermission text after the map you prefer.

I like to use an intermission text too,can this be done after you complete map01.
I believe XWE can pull this off...but im not sure,any help would't be nice.

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Speaking as a player who's interested in recording/watching demos of maps (and who knows something about what speedrunners like, in general):

1. Yes. When checking with DMTHA, the monster hitpoint/ammo ratio should preferrably be at most 1.0 (this depends somewhat on how much infighting there is, though). Some maps are meant to be played Tyson style of course.

2. No, as long as the secrets are varied and clever (see MM map 9 for an example of how NOT to do it). And as long as they're all accessible.

3. Not necessarily, as long as there is enough room to fight them and fighting them isn't "pointless" (e.g. it is much much easier and safer to just ignore them).

4. No. Light effects are nice, but not essential for good speedruns/maxruns. And remember, if a level is *too* dark it is easy to miss a monster.

5. Traps are good in general, and spice up a map significantly, if done right. A map shouldn't really be *based* on traps though, it gets old pretty quick.

6. Many popular maps and mapsets (not slaughter maps) are more or less meant to be played with mainly the SSG with some variations using rockets/cells. This is something speedrunners are used to, no problem.

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dutch devill said:

I like to use an intermission text too,can this be done after you complete map01.
I believe XWE can pull this off...but im not sure,any help would't be nice.


You can have a text after any mapyou like,
I´m not sure about how exactly it works though!
Best is you check the Zdoom wiki, there should be a section about Mapinfo ;)

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I think you should just study Doom2 itself, for example, see what you liked and disliked in each category you mentioned, and take it from there.

About the difficulty, there are skill settings in Doom, if you found Alien Vendetta too hard on skill 1, make it a little easier in your WAD on skill 3, and a bit more carnage for those who choose Ultra Violence :-) Just a suggestion. Have fun.

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gemini09 said:

I think you should just study Doom2 itself, for example, see what you liked and disliked in each category you mentioned, and take it from there.

About the difficulty, there are skill settings in Doom, if you found Alien Vendetta too hard on skill 1, make it a little easier in your WAD on skill 3, and a bit more carnage for those who choose Ultra Violence :-) Just a suggestion. Have fun.


yeah, thanks. I did try to study Doom 2 maps for traps and difficulty. Though, i must say...doom 2 maps just seems...lacking after playing Alien Vendetta and Hell Revealed too. Doom was a breeze compared to those thing.

By the way, I though i heard of a "editor" that allows you to calculate the monster vs Ammo ratios. But I cant seem to find it anywhere. Can someone give me a link.

And another thing. When I got my wad revealed during latest newstuff chronicles, I was told that the big fights had too much ammo. I was wondering, how does the BFG really work. Cuz it seems to do differnt amounts of damage depending how far away the monster is from me. I remember fighting a spider mastermind once; if I ran towards it and fired the bfg right before i colided with it, i could kill the SM in two shots. But if I was just standing still some distance away, it would like 6 shots to kill it. I'm a bit confused on that.

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Ezxariarch said:

By the way, I though i heard of a "editor" that allows you to calculate the monster vs Ammo ratios. But I cant seem to find it anywhere. Can someone give me a link.

Doom Things Analyzer

Ezxariarch said:

And another thing. When I got my wad revealed during latest newstuff chronicles, I was told that the big fights had too much ammo. I was wondering, how does the BFG really work.

The BFG FAQ (and here with a user-friendly brief intro/summary)

See also the post by Anders here.

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If you die more than twice testing your own map, not due to really stupid mistakes, and still can finish it, it's good.

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