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The Doommer

Problem uisng DeHackEd

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Hi , i got that the DeHackEd editor would be very good for me. But when i open it , i will get some errors about the doombak.exe in my doom directory.
I set the DOOM & DOOM II directories in the DeHackEd.ini , But they dont have doombak.exe & doom2bak.exe
What should i do ??

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correct! whacked 4 has all the capabilities of the original dehacked. and it should actually work on your computer :D it also supports some dehacked extensions, like the MBF format

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Tango said:

correct! whacked 4 has all the capabilities of the original dehacked. and it should actually work on your computer :D it also supports some dehacked extensions, like the MBF format

Well , if this is true then thanks a lot.

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The Doommer said:

but i want to know how to add a new monster ? (Not to replace with One !)

Easier said than done with Dehacked since there aren't many "spare" frames, you usually wind up having to steal some from elsewhere. The SS guard is probably the least used monster in Doom 2 and most obvious source of frames for your new monster.

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Right, DEHACKED doesn't allow you to add anything, you must always replace existing things, states, sounds, strings and so on. It's not a problem of the editor, it's a limitation of the script itself (that's what I referred to as DEHACKED, not any particular editor of DEHACKED patches). You can still replace them 'cleverly', for example replace a decorative thing and random states from anywhere and make a monster out of them. It may be a little hard though, specially since vanilla-format DEHACKED doesn't allow you to change NULL codepointers to codepointers with action.

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GreyGhost said:

Easier said than done with Dehacked since there aren't many "spare" frames, you usually wind up having to steal some from elsewhere. The SS guard is probably the least used monster in Doom 2 and most obvious source of frames for your new monster.

The pain elemental resurrection frames are even less used normally (they will only happen if a pain elemental dies in a crusher with proper timing to get turned into a bloody pancake before it finishes exploding, and then an arch-vile wanders by). There's not enough to make a full monster out of them, but it's still quite handy.

When you go for MBF-compatible, you get the dog's states, as well as the BFG 2704 emulation states (including 40 weapon states and the two projectiles' states).

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scifista42 said:

Right, DEHACKED doesn't allow you to add anything, you must always replace existing things, states, sounds, strings and so on. It's not a problem of the editor, it's a limitation of the script itself (that's what I referred to as DEHACKED, not any particular editor of DEHACKED patches). You can still replace them 'cleverly', for example replace a decorative thing and random states from anywhere and make a monster out of them. It may be a little hard though, specially since vanilla-format DEHACKED doesn't allow you to change NULL codepointers to codepointers with action.

Ok , WHAT allows me to add anything ????

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Port specific scripting languages. For example ZDoom's DECORATE. If you use them, your wad will only be playable in that port + derivatives.

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If you're using vanilla Doom or something with not much past Boom capabilities, such as PrBoom, then, well, nothing. You'll have to live with the vanilla bestiary and whatever you can make out of the remaining frames.

On the other hand, ZDoom has Decorate for defining new actors, Eternity has EDF which can also define new actors, and I'm not sure if EDGE's DDF system can do it or not but I'm pretty sure it can. If you're using any of those ports and / or don't mind designing exclusively for them, you can get away with a lot more freedom towards creating entirely new monsters, items, weapon, etc.

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Arctangent said:

If you're using vanilla Doom or something with not much past Boom capabilities, such as PrBoom, then, well, nothing. You'll have to live with the vanilla bestiary and whatever you can make out of the remaining frames.

On the other hand, ZDoom has Decorate for defining new actors, Eternity has EDF which can also define new actors, and I'm not sure if EDGE's DDF system can do it or not but I'm pretty sure it can. If you're using any of those ports and / or don't mind designing exclusively for them, you can get away with a lot more freedom towards creating entirely new monsters, items, weapon, etc.

Give me a link please.

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DECORATE, EDF and DDF are not editors! They are text-based script languages. You simply make a new lump inside your wad (in SLADE3), name it correctly, then edit it in text format to write the script (or you write it to text file and then import into your wad). You can find references of these languages on respective wikies/sites:

http://zdoom.org/wiki/DECORATE
http://eternity.youfailit.net/index.php?title=EDF
http://sourceforge.net/projects/edge/files/EDGE%20DDF/4.6/

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yeah, if new stuff is what you want, DECORATE/EDF/DDF is the way to go if you're using any of those more advanced ports. never used EDF of DDF myself, but I learned DECORATE pretty well without any prior programing experience or anything like that. the ZDoom wiki is an extremely useful reference for learning!

also make sure you check out realm667.com for a bunch of ZDoom resources like new monsters, weapons, etc.

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Tango said:

yeah, if new stuff is what you want, DECORATE/EDF/DDF is the way to go if you're using any of those more advanced ports. never used EDF of DDF myself, but I learned DECORATE pretty well without any prior programing experience or anything like that. the ZDoom wiki is an extremely useful reference for learning!

also make sure you check out realm667.com for a bunch of ZDoom resources like new monsters, weapons, etc.

So how id added the SS Nazi , Revenant , Demon-Spitter , John Romero's Head , ... into Doom 2 ???

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Hahaha.

The engine was still in development at that time, and they were the developers. They simply hardcoded all stuff they needed. If you wanted to mimic them, you would have to create your own fork of the engine and then force it to all people who would like to play your wad (instead of their favorite source ports). Trust me, this is not the way to go.

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Yep - they had the luxury of being able to add support for all that stuff through the source code. Doom2.exe isn't Doom.exe with a DeHackEd patch applied to it.

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scifista42 said:

Hahaha.

The engine was still in development at that time, and they were the developers. They simply hardcoded all stuff they needed. If you wanted to mimic them, you would have to create your own fork of the engine and then force it to all people who would like to play your wad (instead of their favorite source ports). Trust me, this is not the way to go.

There is no hahahaha , Doom 2 was based on doom engine...

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The Doommer said:

There is no hahahaha , Doom 2 was based on doom engine...

Based on the source code, from which the executable is compiled. With high-level programming languages there's usually little need to get your hands dirty hacking old binaries. If you're finding DeHackEd to be too restrictive, here's the Doom source - go wild!

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The Doommer said:

There is no hahahaha , Doom 2 was based on doom engine...

Heretic, Hexen, and Strife were as well, and still you can't turn Doom into these other games with DeHackEd. Heck, even Chex Quest required changes that DeHackEd cannot do.

You seem to believe that id Software used DeHackEd to create Doom II. No. They created Doom II the same way they created Doom: they're the ones who wrote the game, they could make additions and changes if they wanted to. Basically the same way that port authors do. Do you think Lee Killough used DeHackEd to add dogs in MBF? Nope!

You can always try running Doom II with old versions (pre 1.666) of the Doom executable, see if you get anything working at all.

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Gez said:

Heretic, Hexen, and Strife were as well, and still you can't turn Doom into these other games with DeHackEd. Heck, even Chex Quest required changes that DeHackEd cannot do.

You seem to believe that id Software used DeHackEd to create Doom II. No. They created Doom II the same way they created Doom: they're the ones who wrote the game, they could make additions and changes if they wanted to. Basically the same way that port authors do. Do you think Lee Killough used DeHackEd to add dogs in MBF? Nope!

You can always try running Doom II with old versions (pre 1.666) of the Doom executable, see if you get anything working at all.

No , you didn't understood what i said , I mean How to add monsters to Doom II like id ?? By using an engine that can do this. For example by DoomEd...

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No, you didn't understand what we said. You should forget about adding monsters to the game the way id did. They did it by direct editing and enhancing the engine.

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The Doommer said:

No , you didn't understood what i said , I mean How to add monsters to Doom II like id ?? By using an engine that can do this.

You are very confused.

How to add monsters to Doom II like id??
They added monsters by changing the source code. Specifically they used a tool they created, called multigen, to generate the state tables for the old and new monsters. They coded the new monsters' behavior without any special tool besides their text editor, though.

By using an engine that can do this.
No. Engines that can do this are engines which have a content definition language. The engine as distributed by id software with the game (aka "vanilla Doom") is not "an engine that can do this", it cannot add anything new, it is perfectly static. They added new monsters by CHANGING THE ENGINE.

For example by DoomEd...
DoomEd was a map editor (and also texture editor), but it did not have any capability to add any sort of new monsters to the game.

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Gez said:

You are very confused.

How to add monsters to Doom II like id??
They added monsters by changing the source code. Specifically they used a tool they created, called multigen, to generate the state tables for the old and new monsters. They coded the new monsters' behavior without any special tool besides their text editor, though.

By using an engine that can do this.
No. Engines that can do this are engines which have a content definition language. The engine as distributed by id software with the game (aka "vanilla Doom") is not "an engine that can do this", it cannot add anything new, it is perfectly static. They added new monsters by CHANGING THE ENGINE.

For example by DoomEd...
DoomEd was a map editor (and also texture editor), but it did not have any capability to add any sort of new monsters to the game.

ok , so how can i add the monsters and be able to run the wad with any source port ???

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You can't. If you want compatibility with all source ports, you must resort to DEHACKED and work within its limitations, replacing things and states and sounds of existing game objects.

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And even dehacked isn't compatible with all source ports. It won't work on Doom95 for example.

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DEHACKED is compatible with all major source ports that people use nowadays, though. It's safe to rely on it, and it's safe to use DEHACKED with an expectation that every player will use a source port that supports it.

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scifista42 said:

You can't. If you want compatibility with all source ports, you must resort to DEHACKED and work within its limitations, replacing things and states and sounds of existing game objects.

So , if i want to do this impossible job , should i find the doom source code and edit it ??

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Yes. And then compile it and distribute it as a new executable. I hope you realize the critical disadvantages it would bring (I hinted some of them before), so better don't even try it.

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