Editor Wish List

DeePTeam said:

Interesting comment - what exactly do all those ad banners on these pages have to with Doom? What is with all that advertising? Is somebody actually making money from people visiting this site?

For shame for shame. Is this going to be one of those censored sites where you end up deleting the obvious? I sincerely hope not.

P.S. What share do you want? Is there a rate on Doomworld?

Pretty sick. Idiot, it's one thing if you come to the forums to clarify some misunderstanding, bug, or whatever in your program... but throwng rubble over other's hard work (that they did because they love the game, and offering it freely) in order to sell your stuff here REALLY sucks. And then you reply in a bitchy manner to the guy who's monitoring the site... Quit this and act in a decent way, go back to work; people like to put their money where it's worth. If you act like an asshole you'll certainly be seen as one. Are you so desperate that you have to act that way? It's a good thing id made (and sells) DOOM, but from there on making stuff for the game is for those who enjoy it. If you don't understand this, go away.

Hell yeah tom, someone really needs to put 3d editing in a doom editor. I have dreamed of an editor like that ever since i started doom editing. You need to have the classic style of choosing textures and hight levels. Duke 3d's is good for Making thing look the way you want them too but adding textures and choosing floor hights is alot slower thans dooms. If you have both ways in one editor doom levels will improve a shitload

cocoon said:

Well, if a smooth editor used dck's ways of creating sectors/lines/nodes i would be very happy. That is the only reason why I don't switch to another one.

double-click (node) move cursor to new location, double-click (now you've got a line and two nodes), etc. until you reach your start/end node. Whoop the sector is done. I love it!

Ok maybe i need a few more of dck's features. The ultimate editor for me would be a bugfree, win98 version of dck. DCK 4.00, DCK98

Duke 3d's build has the fastest and best sector adding/editing.
I have used every doom editor and nothing compares, creating and placing linedefs and sectors is about 10 times faster than any doom editor. If an editor like this is made please make it so you can do sector splits.

Toke said:

Hell yeah tom, someone really needs to put 3d editing in a doom editor. I have dreamed of an editor like that ever since i started doom editing. You need to have the classic style of choosing textures and hight levels. Duke 3d's is good for Making thing look the way you want them too but adding textures and choosing floor hights is alot slower thans dooms. If you have both ways in one editor doom levels will improve a shitload

3d in a Doom editor sure would be nice :)

I don't know about it really improving the quality of Doom
levels though. Designing a good level is always hard no matter what the game is or how easy the editor is to use.

Mordeth said:

Now, now... no need to get cranky guys. What Linguica means is that you're mentioning your own product in every post you make here. That is not "forbidden" but some people might find that a bit annoying, just like they might be annoyed if I were to mention my own TC in all my posts.

So, no, he is not actually asking you for a share of your profits. We don't do that sort of thing here.

Sometimes I get carried away when a user asks a question whose answer directly relates to DeePsea - sorry about that. Hell (is that bad here?), I'm just typing my thoughts like everyone else and not always realizing how it reads.

If someone posted a topic that related to your TC, bfd, reply to it. There are other factors at work here:)

I was once in a forum discussion with a known TC author (making erroneous statements) who in the end - it turns out - had never ever even used DeePsea, yet went on about blah blah. Funny? Interesting? Yes, but also puzzling to yours truly. Why pretend to talk about something they know nothing about?

DoomWorld is probably one of the best -rounded- sources of DOOM related stuff there is. Your forum is pretty easy to use too.

I get a kick out of some "other" DOOM sites that pretend DeePsea doesn't exist. Now that's the kind of Ostrich mentality that does NOT help the DOOM community expand. Sure, use about a zillion old utilies that don't "quite" work with the new ports and say that's the way to do it.

Gasp

Toke said:

Duke 3d's build has the fastest and best sector adding/editing.
I have used every doom editor and nothing compares, creating and placing linedefs and sectors is about 10 times faster than any doom editor. If an editor like this is made please make it so you can do sector splits.

Duke has a totally different internal mechanism for "sectors". Ignoring that little difference, Build is pretty doggie in the 2D mode. Takes up way too much screen space with "text", ugly fixed low res (sorry about that), harder than hell to change stuff and so on and so forth. Pretty damn primitive stuff that just got the job done. Only the 3d walk is cool -almost- making up for the poor quality in the 2d mode (where most of your time is spent).

For DOOM editing, get out of the DOS world (although DCK is pretty good as a DOS editor) and use one of the window 9X editors (can't name names, haha).

Are you referring to DOOM editors for sector splits? That's been done for a long time by DeePsea, DCK, DEU and probably a lot of others I can't remember right now. Basically you can either draw a line splitting an area or have a command doing same.

PS: A sector in DOOM is just a floor and ceiling reference - NOT - a geometric area, so a "sector" split takes an area and reassign the sidedefs to have proper sector references for the split area.

AndrewB said:

Making levels isn't about learning how to use the editor, it's about having learned how to use the editor, and then making levels.

Editing is about having fun there bud. Nothing more.

DeePTeam said:

Break it down. Whoo.

"1. Do you really think you can "sell" a DOOM derived from the released source code?"

Yes you can, legaly under the GPL as long as you release the source.

"3. People still have to pay for DOOM. Isn't that odd that id still charges for that game. Damn, id should post the game for free after all the money they made (like $$ millions)."

Yes I am aware people pay for Doom. I never said it was free. Of course, it doesn't cost fucking 30 bucks anymore, that's for sure. Paying more for the editor than for the game is a bit much I think.

"4. "Modern" games either have a boatload of "free" editors that ship with the game or other sources."

Doom has a lot of free editors, or ones that aren't so free but with very few limits to them (unless you build massive maps that take up one meg of space).

"5. There is NO game -yet- that has the following of DOOM for making new levels."

Maybe because Doom can run on pretty much ALL computers and it's been out the longest and is easiest to edit?

"Lived with what we've had" simply means that we've made out fine with the older editors. Everyone is looking to improve them and complains about their editors and all this. Who cares? You make levels for a five year old game. Good for you. Try not to be so picky. That's what I meant. I did not mean that old technology is the way to go (sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't).

Cyb said:

Editing is about having fun there bud. Nothing more.

Well sure, that too.. Yeah, especially that. :-b

Cyb said:

I actually enjoy these little tats:)

As I already noted, none of these "discussions" are ever logical, but what the hell, here's more clarification on the obfuscation you are attempting. (I don't know why those words pop out either).

That DOOM even sells for $1 is a total rip dude. It the TOTAL amount of money that counts. Like the GDP or something like that. To compare at the unit level is meaningless. Even at $1 per game id makes tons more $$$$ then DeePsea ever will. Paying for an old game that has already made millions is a bit much don't you think?

Now to the "selling" part. Think BUSINESS - guess I presumed too much there. If one has to release the source, there's not exactly a market. Let me see if this makes sense: I sweat my balls off to make a super DOOM derivative and then I have to GIVE it to everyone else so they can just clone it for free. Umm - I suddenly don't have the motivation any more.

RE editors: I have no idea what you mean by "ones that aren't so free but with very few limits". There are only 2 that work well enough in windows. One technically has an expiration date (but he did a bad job of controlling it- so people just reinstall it).

That get's back to the other comment you skipped over. Is that honest to the author? How come ripping him off is ok? He made an unfortunate mistake in the way he did his expiration date. Why do you think he's not too motivated to put any more work into it?

Hacking editors to make them do parts and pieces is not what I call a usable editor. Sure they do stock DOOM more or less. Even at the risk of hate mail, let me just summarize by stating that only 2 DOS editors are stable & flexible and only 2 Window 9x editors are same.

I understood perfectly what you meant by "lived with..", you just reaffirmed it. That people still use antiques is the same as lawyers still using DOS Word Perfect 5.0 (lol). What's that all about anyway? Answer, the same as what you are saying.

Your rationalization is now drifting into wishy-washy land. Overall, old software/hardware ages and gets replaced by newer better stuff. A few exceptions do not support your generalizations. Try not to be so picky.

If you make statements with too much innuendo, a critique is asked for.

PS: I do mainly software, not levels - not enough time for both (how did you misunderstand that?). Do you actually do any editing and if so, what editor and what maps have you made?

DeePTeam said:

Now to the "selling" part. Think BUSINESS - guess I presumed too much there. If one has to release the source, there's not exactly a market. Let me see if this makes sense: I sweat my balls off to make a super DOOM derivative and then I have to GIVE it to everyone else so they can just clone it for free. Umm - I suddenly don't have the motivation any more.

There is more to a game than just the executable source code.
There's the levels, the artwork etc. That stuff can still be copyrighted by the creator. BTW if id still wants to charge for Doom, that's their business. At least that way they can maintain a certain level of control over how it gets used.
Besides they were the ones who worked their asses off to make it,
so I think your opinion on the issue is irrelavent.

DeePTeam said:

Here we go again:

"That DOOM even sells for $1 is a total rip dude. It the TOTAL amount of money that counts. Like the GDP or something like that. To compare at the unit level is meaningless. Even at $1 per game id makes tons more $$$$ then DeePsea ever will. Paying for an old game that has already made millions is a bit much don't you think?"

Uh, what? You owe all the money you've made to Doom and id. If Doom was free, you sure as hell couldn't charge for Deep, that's for sure. My only point was that paying 30 bucks to edit a game that now costs 10 or less is a bit strange to me. I don't know where you're getting all that gross and net profit shit, I never mentioned that at all.

"Now to the "selling" part. Think BUSINESS - guess I presumed too much there. If one has to release the source, there's not exactly a market. Let me see if this makes sense: I sweat my balls off to make a super DOOM derivative and then I have to GIVE it to everyone else so they can just clone it for free. Umm - I suddenly don't have the motivation any more."

You only have to release the source to the engine, the graphics, sounds and music (assuming they're all original) can be copyrighted and you have a right to take legal action against anyone who steals them.

"ones that aren't so free but with very few limits"

The majority of editors have some sort of shareware limit to them. The majority of editors also aren't supported by the author anymore since he's moved on. So technically they aren't free, but you can still work within the limits of things like DCK, Wadauthor, Waded and so on.

"That get's back to the other comment you skipped over. Is that honest to the author? How come ripping him off is ok? He made an unfortunate mistake in the way he did his expiration date. Why do you think he's not too motivated to put any more work into it?"

Or he could fix the expiration date too. That might help.

"Hacking editors to make them do parts and pieces is not what I call a usable editor. Sure they do stock DOOM more or less. Even at the risk of hate mail, let me just summarize by stating that only 2 DOS editors are stable & flexible and only 2 Window 9x editors are same."

Yeah, but they aren't 30 bucks either.

"Your rationalization is now drifting into wishy-washy land. Overall, old software/hardware ages and gets replaced by newer better stuff. A few exceptions do not support your generalizations. Try not to be so picky.

"If you make statements with too much innuendo, a critique is asked for."

My point was, once again, and try to grasp this, one who edits levels for FUN and NO OTHER REASON, for a game which is ancient in terms of computer software should not be so picky about the choice of level editors. I wasn't refering to you here, but everyone that complains about their editor. It's a simple equation, I make maps for Doom for fun, for myself. So what if my editor craps out after 900 sectors and I have to split the map into two and paste it together in another editor? Who cares? I had fun making the map, I like what I've done, so the goal was accomplished. Comparing someone making Doom levels on an old editor to a lawyer in a business using an old program is NOT the same. I'm not in this for anything but the fact that I like doing it. No one else should be either.

"PS: I do mainly software, not levels - not enough time for both (how did you misunderstand that?). Do you actually do any editing and if so, what editor and what maps have you made?"

Yes I 'actually do any editing' (sic). I've made over 40 maps, and I've been editing for over three years. They can all be found in http://members.xoom.com/cybspage/wads if you're curious at all. I use Waded to make them, and Wadauthor to add any zdoom effects to the ones that are zdoom sepcific. I don't give a crap that waded was programmed in quick basic and that it's buggy as hell. I like it, I have fun making the maps, and that is the end of the story.

I think you're missing one simple, basic point... If this editor was FREE, it wouldn't be nearly as good and feature-rich as it is now... The money they charge gives them the funding to work away hard at it! I think the money is darn worth it..

stphrz said:

There is more to a game than just the executable source code.
There's the levels, the artwork etc. That stuff can still be copyrighted by the creator. BTW if id still wants to charge for Doom, that's their business. At least that way they can maintain a certain level of control over how it gets used.
Besides they were the ones who worked their asses off to make it,
so I think your opinion on the issue is irrelavent.

Yes, and I'd say that if the DeePteam wanted to charge for DeePsea then that's their business! They worked their butts off to make it too, I would imagine!

That's it. I think I'm done with this topic!!

Cyb said:

Sorry this is so long even without quotes.

Ah, I see. Then id owes ALL the money it made to Intel (for the CPU), or IBM (for creating it) or MS (for DOS), the compilers used, etc etc. Want more examples?

Umm, "gross and net profit shit" (sic)? GDP is Gross Domestic Product. Can't recall mentioning either of those you list.

(Game vs editor): DOOM (any game) and an editor are completely different animals - so yes even if DOOM was "free" (and popular), DeePsea could be a registered product. Heck <chuckle> there were "free" editors all around (even worse), but they sucked, so clearly that proves my point (geez, even now that's true).

(Economics): If a unit is made in LOW volume the unit cost is correspondingly higher than a unit made in HIGH volume. Pretty basic stuff here. What part do you still not understand?

We were talking about selling the ENGINE dude, not the levels/art. Anyone can (and has been) selling levels/art for a long long time. Non Sequitur stuff - quit wasting bandwidth.

NO, WadAuthor can't "fix" the expiration date - he released the code/commitment already. Now why didn't he release another version? 'Cause most people will "cheat" given the opportunity and he lost motivation since few registered.

Did you register Waded? WadAuthor? Or did you rationalize that since the game is so old you don't need to? Is that "honest"?

Hacking is hacking is hacking is hacking. Certainly not a user friendly - for everyone - way to do things. It makes NO difference that you like the hard way to do things, most people prefer an easier way. Like why do most people use Windows instead of DOS?

This EXACT same type of argument was going on when DOOM was fresh. Meaning it has nothing to do with game age, but the kind of person. Fine, you enjoy old crap just like those cheap lawyers - save your money - lol.

I make DeePsea for FUN. My goal is to make making editing as easy as possible so more time can be spent on cool details and cool new graphics without having to round up a zillion hacks. The registration pays for MY website and overhead costs (the same reason advertising is on DOOMWORLD). I suppose making $1/hr is profit:)

If you are not picky, that's YOU. The kernel in the lawyer analogy is: why do "some" people use old hard to use shit?

I'm trying not to laugh too hard at your example that an editor that craps out is no big deal. Yeah, right, you just lost 2 hours of work. Sorry, dude, that's NOT fun. No Way. In fact, that's what pissed me off enough in the first place to even write DeePsea and DeePBSP. It's not a good feeling for normal people.

You infer that anyone that "likes doing it" should not make any money. No you didn't explicity write that, but you tried to make it sound that way. Ridiculous.

OK, all you sports fans (that play for fun), don't buy any good shit to play with - grab that discarded golf club out of the garbage bin and so on and so forth. Can't let those club manufacturers make any money for God's sake. Yeah, play with junk for FUN.

"I use Waded to make them, and Wadauthor to add any zdoom effects to the ones that are zdoom sepcific" (sic<g>)

Ah, but you see you are very limited to the type of levels you can make with that combo - not to mention extremely time consuming (and as you noted error prone). Not everyone is a glutton for wasted time even for FUN.

Unknowingly you are hurting DOOM development by promoting hard to use and error prone methods. Think about why you are arguing here - is it just to get your ego satisfied and try to get me? Or are you actually making sense?

stphrz said:

There is more to a game than just the executable source code.
There's the levels, the artwork etc. That stuff can still be copyrighted by the creator. BTW if id still wants to charge for Doom, that's their business. At least that way they can maintain a certain level of control over how it gets used.
Besides they were the ones who worked their asses off to make it,
so I think your opinion on the issue is irrelavent.

>>There is more to a game than just the executable source code.<<

You are off topic. The discussion was about the ENGINE. Pretty damn obvious about levels/artwork.

>>BTW if id still wants to charge for Doom, that's their business.<<

Umm, it wasn't ME that brought that up. Thank you for the argument that it's also MY business.

>>Besides they were the ones who worked their asses off to make it, so I think your opinion on the issue is irrelavent. <<

Thank you again. It was ME that worked my ass off so your opinion is?

You see, these arguments are always so damn ridiculous. Now you are going to get mad at me for pointing out I agree with your statements?

Oh I'm not mad at you. Not at all. Run along now.

DeePTeam said:

Alright, I'm pretty tired of all this, because everything I say you either can't comprehend, twist around (like when the HELL did I mention GDP?), take the wrong way or give an example that is in a different context than what I'm talking about.

It must be fun to think you're superior in some way. Well, you can keep on thinking that, I really don't give a shit. My only points were these:

1) $30 is too much fucking money for an editor for a five year old game.

2) Doom editing should be fun, because Doom is a game. However you choose to do it, make sure you have fun.

3) Fuck what anyone else says about level editors. Don't listen to them, they're all (including me) assholes. Try a few out yourself, learn how to do it, and use the one(s) you like best and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Just because your editor won't run in a DOS window or because it won't cut and paste, or because it won't let you make a map with more than 500 sectors or whatever, doesn't mean it's bad. Do what YOU want. Don't listen to assholes like this Deep guy who's only replying to everything I say to promote his editor. It's YOUR time, YOUR choice. Fuck everyone else.

stphrz said:

This is gonna sound really wierd but, WadAuthor has not crashed on me since I installed IE5 about a month ago. Believe me, I have tried to make it crash to no avail. It has not screwed up in any way shape or form. I haven't even recieved an illegal operation error. Not once. I even tried cut and pasting Sudden Death. The whole goddamn level! Flawless. I then scaled it 115% and rotated it 45 degrees. Perfect.(Well the flats got misaligned).
No more problems with saving either. I don't know WTF is going on, but I sure like it :)

Woah, microsoft can make some progress I see. I went and got IE5 and I havent had a single problem with WadAuthor. Thanks Stphrz.

DeePTeam said:

I make DeePsea for FUN.

Really? And you also seem to have fun posting endlessly all over this forum.

Doing something for fun is this: "Wow! I love DOOM, I'm gonna do this add-on, use it, and release it just in case someone else finds it to their liking. I'll also maintain it or update it if I have some spare time and it suits me - if I don't I'll release the code for someone else to work on."

You are annoying, you know. That's no way to sell things. But I think I already said this (as many others have). Maybe you should sell something else, or please shut up.

This is a political statement.

PS: Hey, "hacking" may be illegal, but if prices are too high, it will pop up, won't it? (you wanted to talk about economic facts?).

Mantra said:

Woah, microsoft can make some progress I see. I went and got IE5 and I havent had a single problem with WadAuthor. Thanks Stphrz.

Just curious, what version of wadauthor are you using?

Cyb said:

Cyb, I just gave up on the guy. You may have noticed he did the same thing to my posts as he did to yours. Although he may be smarter, he seems to suffer from the same mental affliction as REoL does.

DeePTeam said:

"I use Waded to make them, and Wadauthor to add any zdoom effects to the ones that are zdoom sepcific" (sic<g>)Ah, but you see you are very limited to the type of levels you can make with that com

Hahaha, <cough>BULLS**T! Using DeeP to make levels instead of waded is like using notepad to code a site instead of a simple program that has simple toolbars for everything (note the word 'simple'). Aside from WadAuthor, DeeP has the most timeconsuming and impossible (for me) to use drawing system; I can do a level in waded with all the crashes and errors and bugs 3 or 4 times quicker than in an error-free DeeP. You should try it sometime.

[forgot quote]

Mantra said:

Woah, microsoft can make some progress I see. I went and got IE5 and I havent had a single problem with WadAuthor. Thanks Stphrz.

Exactly how is a web browser going to help WadAuthor work? Let me know when you come down.

Cyb said:

Next doomworld poll: Is DeePsea a rip off?

Lüt said:

Exactly how is a web browser going to help WadAuthor work? Let me know when you come down.

Actually Lüt, it's not really all that strange. If you right click "my computer" to get to the system properties (in win95 anyway) it displays what version of IE you are using in addition to the version of win95. Installing IE 5 probably overwrites a bunch of important system files, dlls, and other stuff like that.
God knows what it does. It took my computer five minutes to reboot for the first time after I installed IE5.

stphrz said:

3d in a Doom editor sure would be nice :)

I don't know about it really improving the quality of Doom
levels though. Designing a good level is always hard no matter what the game is or how easy the editor is to use.

Visual editing lets you do things that would take for ever to do with dooms editors like offsets, with doom you have to put in a numbers, with 3d editing all you have to do is press a button on the numeric pad or something, it lets you change stuff aroung and view it instanly. Duke 3d's engine is not anymore capable than zdoom (except the ability to resize textures). If this is true then why do duke 3d's levels look so much better than dooms even without custom textues? Its becuase of the visual editing. In doom maps all you ever see is different types of architechture or a simple computer or chair and other simple stuff like that, with duke3d you have complex real looking objects and more original architechure. The main reason for this is because of the speed of visual editing, all this stuff can be done with doom but no one wants to spend that much time on it. If someone ever makes a 3d editor that is capable of editing while in 3d mode you will see how much better doom wads get.

Pfft just give me a windows version of DCK. Someone track down Ben Morris, he disappeared from the planet after leaving Valve/Worldcraft... By far, DCK has the most efficient sector-creation methods.. both linedef AND sector based.

toke said:

Some Duke3d levels are well designed most are not. I don't really think the best Duke3d levels look any better than the best Doom levels. I don't really like a lot of the textures in Duke3d anyway. Besides the build engine can do fancy things like
slopes which ZDoom cannot. You can also put a lot more detail into a level made for Duke without as much slowdown as would occur with Doom. As far as architecture(sp?) goes the build engine is still a ways ahead of Zdoom. Zdoom has other things going for it like scripting though. Have you tried out Darkening E2 yet? How about the Gothic DM series. I could go on and on. These levels kick ass all over most Duke3d levels.

Oh man.. You ought to see the Duke3D DM level that me and my friend Marc built.. It's based on E1M1, with most of the level omitted.. It has this sportscar with a blaring stereo, and a steering wheel, and it zooms all around the level!! .. This car pulls along a trailer, which has the essentials.. Bedroom, shelf, TV, couch, bathroom, et cetera.. Oh, it's so aaaawesome!! :o