Will Deep ever be freeware?

esayeek said:

i dunno. i find build 2d extremely easy, but if you don't, hey whatever. i like it so i'll use it ;)

Go ahead. The topic wasn't about if you like it or not. Build 2D is not cool. Most people care that they loose almost 1/3 the screen space:)) I know some people like to punish themselves.

What's even more remarkable is that compared to a windowed environment, it's totally unfriendly to the system in general. If one only has a clunky little monitor, the real estate lost is not obvious. If you run a 21" monitor at 1280x1024, you've just give up 75% more space vs a Windows editor for level editing. Plus it's but ugly at a low res. IOW, that expensive monitor is virtually the same as a shitty 14" monitor. Good choice?

And there are lot's of other issues when running a FS DOS program in windows. Just a PIA compared to a native windows program that's easy to switch focus with.

Yes, some don't care. IMO (which is as good as anyone elses), it's awful, tedious and asking for trouble. Tab in and out with ZETH and what happens?

Archvile64 said:

Hmm, I suppose you're right. Since I spend lots of time and work so hard on my levels I guess I should charge people to play them.

That's not how the Doom community works/should work.

What book are you reading this from? You can have all the opinions you want, that doesn't result in it making sense. Here follow this:

Over a hundred-thousand CD Levels have been sold.

Bought by the DOOM community.

Id is still SELLING DOOM - haven't they mad enough money?

Bought by the DOOM community.

If you want to get on some soap box, let's be consistent. Let's start with Id archvile:)

I think we had enough of this thread.

THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS ME TO REOPEN THIS THREAD

deep said:

Go ahead. The topic wasn't about if you like it or not. Build 2D is not cool. Most people care that they loose almost 1/3 the screen space:)) I know some people like to punish themselves.

What's even more remarkable is that compared to a windowed environment, it's totally unfriendly to the system in general. If one only has a clunky little monitor, the real estate lost is not obvious. If you run a 21" monitor at 1280x1024, you've just give up 75% more space vs a Windows editor for level editing. Plus it's but ugly at a low res. IOW, that expensive monitor is virtually the same as a shitty 14" monitor. Good choice?

And there are lot's of other issues when running a FS DOS program in windows. Just a PIA compared to a native windows program that's easy to switch focus with.

Yes, some don't care. IMO (which is as good as anyone elses), it's awful, tedious and asking for trouble. Tab in and out with ZETH and what happens?

build has been ported to native windows. as for the screen real-estate, build has a very smooth, non-flickering zoom feature that is very intuative and allows one to get around the lack of realestate easily by panning and zooming everywhere. oh yeah, the panning feature is also much easier and smoother than in any doom editor.

Okay, perhaps we should just take a step back to realize what's going one here: Basically, everyone is arguing over which editor is better. My reply is, to each his own. Whatever, man, does it really matter what editor someone else uses. I mean, if you like Deepsea and want to pay for it, fine. If you don't like Deepsea, and don't feel that it is worth it's price, fine, don't buy it. I'm personally of the second opinion, but just like anyone else, nobody is forcing me to buy Deepsea, or even acknowledge that it is a good level editor.

Linguica said:

THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS ME TO REOPEN THIS THREAD

Too bad the power of Christ hasn't compelled you to fix your caps lock button.

Deep will not be freeware in the near future - if deep wants to charge for it, it's his choice. It's his fucking editor for fuck's sake.

Everyone stop all your fucking bitching. Who gives a shit if you think DeePsea is crap? or cluttered? Just go and use another editor.

I know I am sounding like a whiny tightass, but jeez. Everyone just stop.

If you don't like DeePsea, then don't use it.

Hmm, now my 2 cents.

Firstly, I see the same people arguing (AGAIN!) about the supposed similarities between Deepsea and DEU, and whether or not Deepsea is the best editor. From the looks of it, both parties will probably never agree... Of course, REAL MEN accept this and "agree to disagree" without wasting more server space on the subject. Get the hint? :)

Also, kudos to the Deep team for continuing their work on Deepsea which is currently my (level)editor of choice. Yes, they charge a fee... so it's up to you if you value their editor enough to pay up or not. I do. That said, you don't see me charging money for my TC which, I dare say, has taken up a -considerable- amount of my time as well. Plus, in my own humble opinion, such fee should be one-time only... having to pay the full price again for upgrades (or bug fixes...) sucks ass. The Deep team might want to consider doing a "loyal customer package" deal, which includes several years' worth of free upgrades?

The Deep team might want to consider doing a "loyal customer package" deal, which includes several years' worth of free upgrades?

Agreed.

You fools. Such a deal would not bring any more money.

Mordeth said:

Plus, in my own humble opinion, such fee should be one-time only... having to pay the full price again for upgrades (or bug fixes...) sucks ass. The Deep team might want to consider doing a "loyal customer package" deal, which includes several years' worth of free upgrades?

How is $15 full-price? The original price is $29. Updates are $15 from any version. Free updates for 6 months, sometimes longer.

If you look over the history of DeePsea, almost all versions involve adding significant NEW features. Easy to see, just look at the "what's new" section. As far as bugs - sometimes those occur. I send (via email) free bug updates to people that ask. I post on the web page to email me. IOW, if you don't email me in time, no free update:) Can't do it via snail mail since that would be very costly.

I DID the "loyal customer package" deal some time back. Hardly anyone took advantage. I'm guessing the reason is that it was too much money. IIRC, $49 for 5 updates, whenever you wanted. When it comes to making a $$ decision, turns out $29 was more attractive. That's why the $15 version idea makes sense to me.

However - I DO give free updates to people who register a lot or a reduced price (less than $15).

So as always what one doesn't know should not be used to conclude anything. Stick to facts and ASK me if in doubt. There are many well-known level designers who can verify the above statements. It would be impolite and presumptious to drag them into this sort of thing.

deep: I'm not trying to be disrespectful or any such thing. I'm just curious. What is these thungs you talk about that can only be acheived with deepsea?


btw about my more than normally bad spelling. I'm typing with one hand here. burnt the left obe and it hurts like hell. better behave or i'll might end up ther :p

kristus said:

deep: I'm not trying to be disrespectful or any such thing. I'm just curious. What is these thungs you talk about that can only be acheived with deepsea?

Way too many things to list. The only way is to download DeePsea (v11.65 at sbsoftware.com ) and see. Some things are not obvious, like the way it finds textures - you don't have to type the whole name to get it right - nor how some methods of changing are different from others.

None of it is hard - actually the opposite. It does take time to learn all the various options (to see the differences). It fairly easy for ex-DEU/DETH users, since a lot of the basic key commands are the same (which is on purpose).

There are a few common questions - many are answered with the F5/Options menu. So if you like the DEU style where if the mouse touching the screen edge moves the map, change it. However, I suggest you try the other method at least a bit. This is where if the mouse hits the edge the cursor changes - now press the left mouse button. The speed is tunable by time delay and size movement.

The quickest way to learn is to use the Tutorial Interactive Demo (on the to menu Help selection). There's either line-drawing or prefabs. Neither are always perfect, but a DEU/DETH user already knows how to quickly fix any mistakes<g>.

To see all the short-cut keyboard commands, select the section of the help that is a summary of kb and mouse (although some are not easy to understand from such a short description). Press F1 in almost all tools to see what the keyboard commands are supported.

btw about my more than normally bad spelling. I'm typing with one hand here. burnt the left obe and it hurts like hell. better behave or i'll might end up ther :p

I just figured you were close to Fredrik and get some 2nd hand smoke coming your way:)

The things that can only be done by DeePsea revolve around the tools. Again too long to explain - just look. Some tools can be done by some other utilities and some can't. Error checking (both the level structure, the PWAD (for duplicates and bad offsets) and the actual TEXTUREx/PNAMES lump) is one that is not matched by any tool out there. The F4, F5, F6, F7, F8, F9, F10 keys give you Dialogs with the various WAD tools. Some are duck simple and easy, some take practice and some are just fun.

THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS ME TO REOPEN THIS THREAD

yay. now to ask my question, how's that school thing going?

RailGunner said:

yay. now to ask my question, how's that school thing going?

If you want to send me proof of being in school, that works for me.

My problem is implementing this as something that will work most of the time, is pretty easy to do and doesn't piss people off:) Now the last one is almost impossible, but what the hell.

So what you want to do is first is make sure your email account can accept 1MB attachments. Not all do. If I use snail mail to send, it's $5 more.

Then send me a copy of your school record that shows you actually go to school - or a grade card - or anything that is from the school. The age is a bit harder. If no proof of age, it's $15, but if you are 13 and you can send me something that says so, it would be $13.

I don't want to make it something that is intrusive. It has to be comfortable for you and your parents.

This copy can be a scanned image or you can snail mail a copy. I can still email. Just make it JPEG so it's not too big. Black and white will make it smaller too.

If paying via CC, you can use the existing upgrade page and just put a note in there that's it's a school registration Then send me the info requested.

Anyone can comment and suggest a better way. I'm just winging it here.

is it possible to send mail and get it back via email?

RailGunner said:

is it possible to send mail and get it back via email?

Yes

yay. im going to pay it once i have $13 bucks.

deep: ah ok. 1st. My anal nature can't let this one pass. You only have to type the first letter in deth to get to the texture you want. Like t then press down and you get to the textures starting with t. Or type ick then down and you'll get to the ickwall set. :p anyway, nuff of that shit...

But You don't have any features in Deepsea that only deepsea can do. Like for instance it's not the only editor that can create hires textures, and the only editor that can add FS lumps.

can you give me your email? i need to ask you something.

kristus said:

deep: ah ok. 1st. My anal nature can't let this one pass. You only have to type the first letter in deth to get to the texture you want. Like t then press down and you get to the textures starting with t.

You are indeed being "anal". It does not work the way you ASSUME. First of all, you CAN NOT get an invalid texture by just typing a few characters (as you can in DETH). Secondly, the way it can default for MISSING textures is a godsend when fixing a level. But please DON'T LOOK you'll actually find out you are wrong. BTW, I didn't list that anyway - I was just explaining how it works, seeing how you are a DETH man. Rather than just looking to piss, see if you can learn something new - god forbid, you aren't over 25 are you?

But You don't have any features in Deepsea that only deepsea can do. Like for instance it's not the only editor that can create hires textures, and the only editor that can add FS lumps.

Really? What other program can take a 2k x 2k BMP and make it into a single lump preserving the size? Who invented it? There is no other editor with integrated FS editing, export and saving that WORKS. There is a quick utility. Never said otherwise, you brought it up.

Rather than being determined to prove me wrong and just ignoring facts, the intelligent thing to do is actually TRY IT rather than GUESS

For example, ("anal" is not something to brag about - your words) what utility checks all your textures, see if they have "holes", that all the patches exist, that all the patches are valid and also what patches aren't used. There's more where that came from.

Am I right or are you? Can DeePsea do things that no other utility can do? Do I get a prize or a kick in the ass? LOL

yes there are. that's why i use it.

msg bites the dust - sorry about that railgunner

no... ebola

deep said:

You are indeed being "anal". It does not work the way you ASSUME kid. First of all, you CAN NOT get an invalid texture by just typing a few characters (as you can in DETH). Secondly, the way it can default for MISSING textures is a godsend when fixing a level. But please DON'T LOOK you actually find out you are wrong. Seems you are just looking to piss, not actually learn anything new - god forbid.
Really? What other program can take a 2k x 2k BMP and make it into a single lump preserving the size? Who invented it? There is no other editor with integrated FS editing, export and saving that WORKS. There is a quick utility. Never said otherwise, you brought it up.

Rather than being determined to prove me wrong and just ignoring facts], the intelligent thing to do is actually TRY IT rather than GUESS

For example, "anal" (not something to brag about - your words), what utility checks all your textures, see if they have "holes", that all the patches exist, that all the patches are valid and also what patches aren't used. There's more where that came from.

Am I right or are you? Can DeePsea do things that no other utility can do?

Well sure, but all those features you list there are NOT worth $50.

lament said:

Well sure, but all those features you list there are NOT worth $50.

Was that the point of the discussion? NO.

You don't think it's worth $29. Nor $15 nor anything. If it's not "free" then it's not worth it. I don't care Lament. You can spend all the time you want making levels and resources.

It's your time after all and you can do with it what you want. Never said any different.

Ebola asked what DeePsea can do that no other editor can do. I listed a FEW of them. There are some tools that can do in about 5 minutes that would take you ALL DAY to do otherwise. But I agree, it's not worth it to anyone who has nothing else to do:))

It's the ol' RIAA vs. the Napsterites debate all over again, heheh...

I have a good sense of value. I but all my commercialy mad games for $10-$20. We're talking Quake, Qukae 2, Fallout 2, Thief, Unreal Tournament, Duke Numkem 3D. The most I've ever payed for a game is $45 for GTA3, and thats because it had a $10 rebate. Those games were all worth what I payed for them. Now $50 for a shitty, ugly, hard to use editor is a rip off. The total I've payed for all my Doom games doesn't even come close to that. I guess if there are people who actualy want to pay for this crap, they can go ahead and waste theri money. Why no one ever makes an editor as good as Build is beyond me. It was so smooth and easy to use I can't imagine why no one has ever tried to make a Doom editor like it. Yeah, no go whine about how supposedly 'great' you editor is, but all I see is a piece of crap thats not worth ahlf the price of what you have to pay for it.

I reg'd deepsea and I didn't mind doing so, if you don't, that's your opinion.

What I do think sucks is paying for upgrades, Jack you need to seriously re-consider that IMO.