Doom Builder and Vertices

So i was working on my wad, when i had the great idea of making 3 big areas, each with a lot of enemies and traps. Since they were in a cave, i decided use my method to make the walls look "natural". I do this by clicking a lot, creating a lot vertices. I tried to draw all 3 areas at once, resulting in a pretty big sector. But once i finished the sector, it just vanished. Doom builder said it created a drawing, but nothing was there. "OK", i thought, "Perhaps doom builder doesn't like big sectors, so maybe if i make each area a sector, it will work". So i draw the first sector, using the same method, and... it disappears. Again.



Apparently, if you use the same method that i use, it will either result in this:



or nothing will happen.

However, if i do a more "blocky" design, like this:



It works just fine. But why? Does anyone have an explanation as to why this happens?

If you are clicking very erratically, the shape you are drawing might have a bunch of problems -- it might not be fully enclosed, for example. That should be the only real difference.

It's one of the shortcomings of DB2.
Take a closer look at the linedefs and compare the two 'sectors'. The direction of the sidedefs matter.

[edit]
see below

But you can clearly see in the image that its fully closed. And its not like there's a very small and unnoticeable space, because i was drawing in 16 mp. If there were a space in the drawing, it would be noticeable because of how big it would be, right? Anyway, ill probably stop using this method, because it creates a lot unnecessary vertices.

Sidedefs may not point into the void.

Hint: For sectors to be closed, always draw in a clockwise direction.

Kappes Buur said:

Hint: For sectors to be closed, always draw in a clockwise direction.

wtf, this really matters?
How hard can it be to do it properly?

How and what exactly did you do when you drew this?
Can you replicate this?

Not having used either Doombuilder and Doombuilder2 for quite some time, that first screenshot sparked my interest. So, I tried both editors and I must revise my earlier comment of it being a shortcoming of DB2. Regardless of the direction in which the vertices were layed down, both editors closed the sector properly (sidedefs pointing into the sector) and the sector is highlighted as soon as the last vertex is laid down over the first vertex.

Also tried Slade3 (out of curiosity). The sector was closed properly when vertices were drawn either way.

Dammit, just enter "Make Sectors" mode (press M) and click your "empty" sector.
If I understood your problem correctly, I mean.

Kappes Buur said:

http://i.imgur.com/3hAs71k.png

How and what exactly did you do when you drew this?
Can you replicate this?

Yes i can! I do it by clicking rapidly while moving the mouse very slowly, which results in a lot of very small linedefs. Here's another picture:



See how small each linedef is? Click rapidly, move the mouse slowly.

bzzrak said:

Dammit, just enter "Make Sectors" mode (press M) and click your "empty" sector.
If I understood your problem correctly, I mean.

It's not really a problem, since i don't use this method anymore (creates a lot of unnecessary vertices). Plus, it happened very rarely. Still, thanks for informing me of this tool.

use the curved lines tool in gzdoombuilder, It'll make you life alot simpler in this aspect. Out of interest why are you making a giant blob?

Sounds to me like you've gone ahead and made a load of zero-length lines which I imagine could cause issues. How about slowing down and making a more controlled 'random shape'.

Alternately, slow down even more, draw a rough version of the shape you intend to have, then add vertices & manipulate the locations of these vertices.

See if the issue still persists.

@MrGlide - Giant blob is probably the starting point for many cavernous terrains.

Wouldn't it be better to give a rough layout of a planned level, then "cavernise" it? Doing it this way seems like a huge pain in the butt.

I've used the same technique a number of times.

It helps me because it allows me to come up with terrain that might feel more natural. I go through the process of working around the terrain instead of making the terrain work around me, this can help to inspire and produce interesting locations and layouts.

I WOULD suggest adding in any buildings / architecture before adding the finer terrain details such as vertex slopes and the likes, but for the most part it's really easy to work with.

Maybe you clicked back on a previously drawn line, and it tried to close 2 lines as a sector? Or, maybe you quickly dragged the whole shape out of the window? I would suggest trying to recreate the issue going slower. Speed shouldn't matter to the editor, but it might make you do something funky. Maybe the rapid movement caused your mouse to do a right button, or center wheel click which, depending on your setup, might have cause the issue. Just guesses, of course.

Hiya.

I just tried to recreate that by clicking as fast as I could, going counter-clockwise even (all Front sides pointing 'outward'). I couldn't replicate your problem.

Not super helpful other than to suggest what others have as well; try going a bit slower.

What I have had good luck with is drawing out a large 'blocky' area initially. Once that is done I then switch to Vertex mode, zoom in a bit, and then just move my mouse along the lines, hitting my "Z" key (my GZDOOMBUILDER hotkey for "Insert", basically) at random times along the whole room. Then select all the Vertexes making up my room and use GZDB's cool little "Randomize" button on the left. The interactivity of it really shines! You can slide up/down to get more/less variation of the vertexes. Just make sure your Grid is set small for best results (like 4, 2, or 1).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

I could replicate this in GZDoom Builder by drawing a sector counter-clockwise the following way: Draw the first line, then click the last drawn vertice again (drawing a zero-length line on its place), then draw the remaining lines of the shape. If I draw clockwise, or if I do not double-click the very vertice after drawing the very first line of the shape (even if I double-click another vertice or vertices drawn later), the glitch doesn't occur - in other words, the zero-length line has to be the very second line that you draw of the shape. As kb1 said, it has nothing to do with how fast you move the mouse or how fast you click the mouse button, rather where you click.

Sounds like I was on the money with the zero-length line issue. Odd that it only occurs when counter-clockwise though, although I imagine there's a logical reason for that.

Also, Paul's comment is quite a good one, instead of trying to be 'humanly random', allow the software to be random for you. :)

Hiya!

Yup...0-lenth Linedef is bad. Same idea in regards to most 3D packages (Lightwave is the only one I use where you can have a Polygon with 0 sides..called a 'Single-point Polygon').

To OP, maybe you need a new mouse? When mice start to get old and well-used, sometimes the spring/toggle/clickything inside a button gets sort of 'sticky', causing what you though was a single click to be registered as two. This happens with pen's for tablets too (experience...my aging Intuous3 pen sometimes does a 'double click').

Anyway, to the OP's general intent... :) One thing I've discovered that really helps me stay 'in the zone' when working on a map is the realization I had that trying to get all my ideas down in the map as fast as possible so I don't forget them is...problematic. It fries my brain too fast and I found myself mapping for shorter and shorter periods of time. This resulted in less and less actual 'map creation'. So, slapping down a VERY rough sector (as in, a rectangle), then popping straight into 3D mode to take a look at the size, then back to 2D and I start my 'refinement'. Caves work particularly good using this method (and the Randomize function in GZDB2). I'd get confused as to where I was in 3D/2D relation when doing that; now I work on one 'side' at a time, adding sectors and vertexes as needed. I always know where I'm at because I have big, long, 'walls' that give me reference.

The point of all that is...slow down, treat map making like building a 3D model or like sculpting; start with a big block, rough out a very basic form, then start refining. Don't just jump straight into creating a cavern wall with 137 linedefs. :)

^_^

Paul L. Ming