What makes doom, Doom?

kulma said:
most quake editors even back then were freeware, but i used to use Qoole years ago (i never got over the brush-limits :P ), but it's open-source these days. and it edits half-life and all :P

http://www.volved.com/qsr/

Really?
/me checks link

GROVIE! I might have to start quake mapping once agian!

Ct_red_pants said:

Really?
/me checks link

GROVIE! I might have to start quake mapping once agian!

i've had it installed for a while, but i'm consentrating on doom mapping right now. btw, nab 2.50 if you'll only do Quake, don't get Qoole 99, it has some problems.

i love doom just for editing but i dont think
its the best and only game ever. i like to roll
with medal of honor and spearhead its sweet on line
i just got done playin the doom3 demo almost done with
final fantasy for ps2 and grand theft auto vice city
doom is a great game but i cant just play that only
and say well every thing else just sucks!

dsm said:

/Me waits for all the Heretic freaks to show up and claim that "Heretic 0wnz Doom"
/Me cocks shotgun

:-P

Well, I'm partially a Heretic freak, but I still think DooM is best.

The only good games, to me, are:

Ultimate Doom
Doom II
Pocket Tanks
Jetpack
Mario Brothers I and III

=P

dsm said:

/Me waits for all the Heretic freaks to show up and claim that "Heretic 0wnz Doom"
/Me cocks shotgun

:-P

/Me also cocks shotgun

I thought Heretic would be like a cool medeivilish version of doom but it turned out to be just fugly crap, not to mention boring.

I spent several hours wandering around some level, staring at the same corpses over and over and over...

Well yes, in some ways |-|3|2371( 0wnz |)00/\/\. :) It's just a shame there are so few custom maps for it.

Be specific, Grazza, in what way do you challenge my claims?

Hexen was tite...no one mentions that game...

Hmm, did I say I was disagreeing with your specific points? I think Heretic tends to look and sound better. Many of the enemies are rather cool, e.g. the Iron Lich, with its three forms of attack. The inventory items add interesting possibilities that don't exist in Doom. On the other hand, the implementation of the inventory is rather clumsy (this is improved in jHeretic though).

OK, the lack of bullet-firing monsters is in some ways a drawback, but it wouldn't have fitted the theme of the game. However, that same fact can also make skill 5 more pleasantly playable than Doom's UV -fast (or NM), where it sometimes happens that the bullet-firing monsters make it pretty much impossible to survive, or at least make the gameplay highly unbalanced (your health gets stripped away too quickly in some areas, and there is nothing you can do about it). What I mean is that if gameplay is balanced on skill 4 in Heretic, it is likely to be fairly well balanced on skill 5. In Doom it is more unpredictable.

Skill 5 also takes care of most of the problem with being able to carry lots of items from one level to the next - you can only take one of each. Anyway, in Doom the balance is often spoilt if you start the next map with full ammo, armour and health. In both games, the solution is the same: starting each map with a pistol/wand, assuming the episode isn't designed so that you need some items from earlier maps.

If there were an equal number of good custom maps for Doom and Heretic, I'd probably play the two games equally - they both have their (many) good points, and their (few) weak points. And I wish there had been a genuine Heretic 2 (in the same way as there was a Doom 2), in which the game was expanded in some ways, perhaps with some sort of mystical instant-hit baddie, an Arch-Vile equivalent, and some enhanced weaponry.

OK? Anyway, if the fact that people like Heretic offends anyone, then they can just view Heretic as a Doom TC...

Grazza said:

I think Heretic tends to look and sound better.

You're kidding right? Heretic's sound sure as Hell ain't better than Doom's - there may be more sounds in Heretic than in Doom (e.g. crumbling rocks), but they are certainly of a lower quality than Doom's and some of them sound rather amateurish (the supposedly "evil laughter" that one hears occasionally sounds like crap).

Most of the monster sounds are kinda funny though - like those golem creatures that walk around saying "Awwwwww" all the time, lol, or those constantly grinning gargoyles.

I prefer Doom for mood setting, even if it has fewer sounds than Heretic, it still has more badass sounds that are more frightening.

Oh and the inventory was a good idea, but it works like shit - I haven't figured out quite how it works yet, but apparently you automatically lose powerups when you go from level to level - something I think is rather annoying, because I'd gather all these quartz flask, intending to save them for when I really need them only to find that they all disappear when I go to the next level - crap!

And it looks better you say? What ARE you smoking? Heretic looks way more cartoonish than Doom does and the colours are uglier.

I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you completely, though you're right about those Iron Liches being cool and all.

Grazza said:

Skill 5 also takes care of most of the problem with being able to carry lots of items from one level to the next - you can only take one of each.

That feature exists on all skill levels, not just skill 5. But I agree - skill 5 certainly works well on Heretic (and Hexen, too), which is just as well since there's no -fast. (unless you use a port - ZDoom v18 is the best)

You're right about the monsters though - compare the baron, cyber and spider demon to the Ironlich, Maulotaur and D'Sparil - they're much more dangerous in Heretic (which also has a low "rocket" capacity, meaning maulotaur battles are pretty tactical and more interesting than cyber battles).

dsm said:

Oh and the inventory was a good idea, but it works like shit - I haven't figured out quite how it works yet, but apparently you automatically lose powerups when you go from level to level - something I think is rather annoying, because I'd gather all these quartz flask, intending to save them for when I really need them only to find that they all disappear when I go to the next level - crap!

And it looks better you say? What ARE you smoking? Heretic looks way more cartoonish than Doom does and the colours are uglier.

I think the inventory does that to stop you from being all-powerful in the next map, and IMO improves the gameplay a lot. It forces you to actually use the powerups rather than stockpiling them (which tends to happen when I play Hexen/Hexen 2). It also stops you cheating by letting you take a pair of wings into the next map, and short-cutting somewhere.

Heretic is more cartoon-ish because it's set in a fantasy world, it's not meant to be realistic like DooM.

I really really liked Strife! Cool level design and interactivity with game characters! The only reason this game has never reached my personal top 5 is the fact that there are too many times you'll have to NOT SHOOT ... :P But again, the design of some Strife levels rules all!!!

scorpion said:

I really really liked Strife! Cool level design and interactivity with game characters! The only reason this game has never reached my personal top 5 is the fact that there are too many times you'll have to NOT SHOOT ... :P But again, the design of some Strife levels rules all!!!

Strife is kinda fun...sometimes. The concept sucks though - So, you're on this human planet with highly developed technology, but everyone there are dressed like in the middle ages. Bah!

Back to Heretic: So it's set in a fantasy world huh? Well, imo, that isn't reason enough not to make the graphics look a little realistic.

But anyway, that's a matter of opinion - I just don't think Heretic looks that good and I think the weapons suck. In Doom the weapons looked badass, sounded badass and felt badass - in Heretic they're just a bunch of cheesy magic staffs and wands. Put some axes, swords, some cool, original magic spells (no fucking ripoffs like all Heretic's weapons were ripoffs of Doom) and other badass medieval weapons augmented with magical powers and I'll think the weapons in a fantasy fps is cool.

Which brings me onto HeXen - the second most badass Doom engine powered fps ever (the first being Doom naturally)!

This game is everything Heretic should have been imo. Personally I prefer the fighter because I'm such an aggressive, close-and-personal type of guy, but also because he seems to have the most devastating weapons (I ALWAYS prefer weapons that can dish out some serious damage), but the two other characters are cool too with some nice, original weapons. The sounds are better and more frightening than those in Heretic (but I still prefer Doom's anytime) and there isn't even a single powerup that is a ripoff of anything from Doom (though I admit that a Tome of Power in HeXen rocks - it was nice to have one in Fury, so it's a shame they they didn't have it in HeXen originally).

Basically, I like HeXen because it doesn't try to be like Doom - it's more like its own game and it manages extremely well by not directly copying anything from Doom. As much as I love every aspect in Doom, I prefer that other games don't copy aspects from Doom too much.

dsm: Are we really disagreeing much over matters of substance? OK, we have different aesthetic preferences - so be it. We seem to agree about the inventory: nice idea, poor implementation. BTW, have you tried jHeretic? You might prefer the appearance of the md2 models, and you can bind inventory items to keys.

UD: Yes, you're right, it isn't just on skill 5 where you lose all but one of each type of inventory item (and any wings) when going to the next level. OK, so it's better (IMO!) than I thought in that respect. I was actually confusing it with Quake 2...

Grazza said:

dsm: Are we really disagreeing much over matters of substance? OK, we have different aesthetic preferences - so be it. We seem to agree about the inventory: nice idea, poor implementation. BTW, have you tried jHeretic? You might prefer the appearance of the md2 models, and you can bind inventory items to keys.

I have just tried the shareware of Heretic in JHeretic - that's why my firm opinion that Heretic, to put it mildly, isn't anything special has become even firmer than before - playing through the shareware again has reminded me why I uninstalled it in the first place - its gameplay is dull imo and the concept doesn't inspire me in any way.

But as you said, we have different aestetic preferences and I will try not to take the argument further. Now, I belong to the group who love sci-fi just about as much as goth fantasy, but as you probably know by now, I prefer a more... how shall I say?...'balanced' goth fantasy setting where there's both plain steel and magic involved.
In fact, I'm also very selective within sci-fi - I am not so interested in exclusive high-tech-energy-weapon sci-fi settings - I prefer a more gritty setting with weapons that rather resemble modern day weapons than some cheesy blasters.

That's why Doom appeals so much to me - it combines a lot of the elements that I love: Gritty medium tech sci-fi, gothic myths (demons, Hell) and a military design that is not completely unlike the modern design within military equipment and gear (ahh, no cheesy full body plastic-looking armour - just good ol' army style with an armour vest).

Grazza said:

I thought in that respect. I was actually confusing it with Quake 2...

Almost, as Quake 2 actually restricts the amount you can carry.

(but this still wasn't enough to make it harder for me, so now I simply use the powerup as soon as I get it, more like Quake 1 - bring back the Quad Damage rage!)

I really prefer the way the Quake 2 inventory works.
It limits the powerups that you can carry as UltimateDoomer pointed out, meaning that if you forget to use a quad damage, then when you come across another Quad, you realize thet you already have two, giving you a chance to actually put the item to good use instead of you forgetting it and then it just vanishes from your inventory, lost and wasted.

I particularly found it annoying with the quartz flasks, it didn't really bug me so much with the ToPs and all the other powerups, but those quartz flasks disappearing like that was a nuisance, because I would almost always need them early in a map (where you would only have one) and no, I don't think allowing the player to carry quartz flasks over to the next level would make the player "all powerful" (it worked well in HeXen where you would end up carrying 25 flasks throughout most levels).

My reasons I like Doom is because of two reasons:

1. The Simplicity of the game. (Run around and shoot things will getting a key or something to leave the level)

2. The Ease of editability. You can easily change the graphics of an imp into your brother or a cyberdemon into some other nameless shmuck you want to kill into a cyberdemon. Other than changing graphics, you can use map editors to make your own level. If that's not enough, you can combine the usage of new graphics, new levels, and Dehacked (very old, but hey, it still works), DDF, or VavoomC to make a totally different game (almost)!

doom is simple, you don't need to use a whole keyboard to use all the functions. move, shoot, open. what else is there to do?
newer games have a thing about shooting different parts of someone causes more damage. doom you don't have to worry about that.

I first played heretic a week ago, and didn't play long. It seemed like doom, but with different monsters, and items.

hexen on the other hand, sometimes I like it better than doom. I found that it wasn't really good on PC. I only played it on N64, then a week ago I tried it on PC. On skill level 5 I try to use the items in the best way. and having three different characters to use, makes it worth playing three times. Boss battles were much better than in doom. Reflective spells make you rethink how you are going to kill one, and depending on your character, you will have to do different things. In doom, you just use rockets, or the BFG, and just have to worry about your health going down to 0..

0_o

dsm said:

playing through the shareware again has reminded me why I uninstalled it in the first place - its gameplay is dull imo and the concept doesn't inspire me in any way.

That's because episode 1 has only 4 out of 7 weapons (which IMO are more interesting from a tactical point of view), only half of the monster types (all the tougher ones are missing except the ironlich), one missing powerup and mainly castle-style maps (whereas the other 4 episodes have a variety of themes). It's also by far the easiest episode, the others (esp. E4 and E5) are much tougher.

commander keen>doom

I myself (yep this is about what I think, so stop reading this now :P) Love Heretic. Heretic is among Doom in being my favourite game of all time, I loved Heretic when I was younger and I couldnt stop playing it, both it and Doom back then atmospheres just blew me away; they were so realistic to me. (then again, I was 6or7 at the time.) I find that both Doom and Heretic have excelent music, sounds, everything, I seriously can't say Doom is better than Heretic, cause both Doom and Heretic have their pros and cons. I love both Doom and Heretic, and well, I also find it a pitty that Heretic didnt have a good sequal like Doom. Nevertheless, I still play Heretic, as I do Doom.

Hexen is my favorite of these games, with Doom a close second. I don't play Doom all that much because I'm making Hexen maps. I like Heretic, but it's mostly too easy. A Maulotaur can die with 2 shots from a powered up Phoenix Rod (assuming most of that flame hit him). As for Fury, or Carnage Galore 3, that was just the first episode. I'm working on the rest of it, but it will take quite some time to finish the whole thing.

Ultimate DooMer said:

That's because episode 1 has only 4 out of 7 weapons (which IMO are more interesting from a tactical point of view), only half of the monster types (all the tougher ones are missing except the ironlich), one missing powerup and mainly castle-style maps (whereas the other 4 episodes have a variety of themes). It's also by far the easiest episode, the others (esp. E4 and E5) are much tougher.

You know, I've been told exactly that before, but thing is, I HAVE seen all the weapons - when I first saw Heretic it was on a friend's computerand he had the full version. I didn't check the other episodes though, but I did see all the weapons and I wasn't impressed because, like with the shareware weapons, the rest of the arsenal is just Doom's weapons in "sheep's clothing" (i.e. cheesy magical staffs).
As for the monsters and the challenges, well... the monsters *could* excite me a little, but it doesn't really matter that much if I don't like the weapons and as for challenges, I don't play games exclusively to be challenged (if I want to be challenged I can play through Doom limiting myself to using only certain weapons and playing certain maps from scratch), I play games to get that giddy joy from spilling the blood of my enemies and while Heretic has some nice sounds and death animations, the weapons just aren't satisfactory to use on the enemies.

And about the other episodes having more aesteically interesting levels, I can say that E1 didn't turn me down because of levels - I thought the E1 levels were ok and had good designs, so again I must say that the factor which makes me dislike Heretic is purely weapons related.

Sorry.

Ichor said:

I like Heretic, but it's mostly too easy. A Maulotaur can die with 2 shots from a powered up Phoenix Rod (assuming most of that flame hit him).

But you also need a ring to kill him with a tomed-up phoenix rod, as you have to stay close up and facing the same way, or the flame goes all over.

(if it's too easy, play on skill 5, or start each level from a wand start)

A Ring of Invincibility does help, but for a real challenge (or if you don't have any), try killing them without it.

Ichor said:

A Ring of Invincibility does help, but for a real challenge (or if you don't have any), try killing them without it.

Been there, killed that. Try with just your crossbow. (no artifacts either)

ravage said:

Been there, killed that. Try with just your crossbow. (no artifacts either)

Or even Funner, use Teh Power Shaft!!!! (The stick weapon (weapon 1 (not the gauntlets))with tome of power, I love that weapon, kicks hide, and so fun to use, just like punching a CyberDemon, Fun Fun!!) :D

0_o Druggie. :P