Difficulty options--important in wads?

Erik said:
I tend to disagree with the "Same monsters but with different amount of ammo/health/weapons is equally hard". Ok, adding a few medikits and shells wont make a difference, but adding stuff like invuls, megaspheres and a few thousand cells+BFG makes any hard slaughter map (or any map) crap easy if you just add enough of it.

Okay, quick examples (off the top of my head): HR map 24, HR2 map 32. I *seriously* doubt a non-skilled keyboarder could finish these maps UV max style even with adding several invulns and double the amount of megaspheres. It's all about handling monsters well enough not to be cornered/swamped when they go at you from all sides and angles. (And those maps even has enough BFG cells to last a lifetime).

EDIT: I should mention that these two maps both got it right (that is, severly reducing the amount of monsters on the lower skill levels, as well as the types of monsters -- particularly HR2 map 32).

Kristian Ronge said:

Letting the player face the same hordes of monsters, but slightly better equipped health/ammo wise is, IMHO, the wrong way to go.

Erik said:

I tend to disagree with the "Same monsters but with different amount of ammo/health/weapons is equally hard".

Hmm, I'm going to have this problem soon... (scoring + skill settings = not a good mix)

I don't mean simply doubling the amount of megaspheres or anything... I mean adding them until there is enough. That could mean 100 megaspheres and 20 invuls + 40,000 cells extra on hr24 for a very bad player (slightly exaggerated ;). The gameplay can be balanced well this way, you just have to add a lot more than you think at first.

Yeah, okay, I understand your viewpoint, and in principle, you're right: One could theoretically spray invulns on every piece of accesible floor throughout the entire map, effectively making the player invulnerable during the whole playing session, and then anyone would be able to finish it. But that's just absurd. It's also an, IMHO, unimaginative way of solving the problem of a bad player being overwhlemed by the opposition. I believe it would be more fun to simply lessen the opposition, or change the composition of the opposition.


Example:
UV : Open space, 20 arachnos, 1 megasphere
HNTR: ?
Suggestion along the lines you propose ->
Open space, 20 arachnos with 4 megaspheres and 2 invulns
My suggestions ->
Open space, 2-3 arachnos, 1 megapshere;
alternately, Cover provided (trees, etc.), 5 arachnos, 1 megasphere;
8 Hell Knights with an invuln and a megasphere;
Or why not 20 imps, 1 megasphere?

etc.

Does anyone agree with me that the later suggestions would be more fun for a bad player, or am I alone? :-/

EDIT: Rephrased a bit.

Well, I doubt there are many outright BAD doom players around anymore, I mean the kind who can barely kill an imp with 10 shotgun blasts and the one who dies to a single baron of hell in an open area. And I don't really think that average players who can't finish maps like hr24 should be deprived of the slaughter map feel just because they can't perfectly dodge masses of revenant shots while running around the ledges.

It's not good to balance the gameplay like this on every map though, it should be used more as a occassional change of pace from the easy fights with (more or less) balanced hardware that skill 2 usually consist of.

Erik said:

Well, I doubt there are many outright BAD doom players around anymore...

Uhm, have you forgotten the existence of me Erik? :)

I'm a bad doom player, but I still enjoy slaughter. So balancing slaughter maps with loads of cell ammo and some megaspheres and invuls is a good way to go.

It's always nice to have options. I play strictly ULTRA-VIOLENCE, because I'm a man, but there must be at least 2 or 3 guys out there who like to take things easy.

For games like Hell Revealed difficulty settings is pretty much a must...

Speaking of which, difficulty settings don't always have to be as simple as less monsters, it could be used to change gameplay, for example skill 4 is...ultra violence like Hell Revealed, with plenty of big bad monsters, while skill 3 for example is more realistic, little health and almost no armor, more direct shooters instead of Imps and Demons and Hell Knights, if you know what I mean.

...I'm planning 2 versions of my current project, one Hell Revealed style, and one a little more modern style. They'll both be hard, the difference is in one you'll have lots of weapons, and some health and armor, facing packs of scary monsters all over the place, while the other will use more direct shooters, maybe often hiding in places, yeah anyway, sorry for going on and on here, just an idea you guys could use to offer 2 gameplay types in the same maps.

...And there will be 2 versions because there will be 2 texture packs for the same maps, instead of just using the difficulty settings for the different gameplay.

gemini09 said:
I play strictly ULTRA-VIOLENCE, because I'm a man,

Are you sure??? :P

I find difficulty settings are a good idea. It lets even the worst Doomers enjoy your map.

Normally difficulty settings are absolutely meaningless to me... unless I play something like DeusVult or Alien Vendetta :p
Whenever I load up a brand new WAD for the first time ever, my immediate instincts usually tempt me to choose either "Ultra Violence" or "Hurt Me Plenty"....I don't feel tempted to go any lower than that unless I keep dying like 25 times in a row.

I haven't included any difficulty settings in my WAD, in case you didn't notice.

just replace most of the revvies with imps

Doom Marine said:

just replace most of the revvies with imps

LOL. Are you referring to those revenants which roam around in the dark hallway with the barred windows on my MAP02?
I put those in to give you a worthwhile experience....after all, it's only a 3-map WAD, and if you were able to complete it all in under 30 minutes then it wouldn't be considered a very worthwhile mod, now would it?

I dunno I'm sort of torn now. I really like how the wad plays now, not too hard not to easy. This what my vision is of the wad. If I make it easier on some difficuties then I lose my picture of the wad.

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=12252

Map02 skill4 gogogo.

Is that one even possible to beat?